Barack Obama is the New Bill Clinton.

[1KielsonDrive]

You all think the republicrats are down and out because they lost the election? Think again. They haven't had this much fun since the Starr and Whitewater investigations. If you thought a hundred million bucks was a lot of money to spend on a witchhunt for a blowjob, think again. These guys are throwing every single piece of s*#t against the wall until they find something that sticks. And they will find something that sticks. Obama is an 'illegal immigrant', Obama's a socialist, Obama's a fascist, Obama's a 'N', Obama's an activist. There's just enough ignorant people out there to grab on to this stuff and stomp around loudly and indignantly. The South lost the Civil War on the battlefield but won it on the land. It took a hundred years to catch up after the south's 'victory'. The republicrats lost the election at the ballot box but are winning the battles on the ground. Never 'misunderestimate' the ability, and willingness, of ignorant people to bite their noses to spite their faces, and scream they're being persecuted.

[ccbatson]

More, MUCH MORE to find with Obama...and Clinton was/is no angel.

[1KielsonDrive]

How many unintelligible posts tonight Bats? How's the world record coming along? Are you going to be in the Guiness Book?

[Gistok]

1kielsondrive... I remember something that James Carville once said about some of the women who claimed they had sex with Bill Clinton.... "If you drag a $100 bill thru a trailer park, you'd be surprised what sticks to it".....

As for Obama... the mean spiritedness of the opposition is appaling. It has stopped being a legitimate debate long ago, and has turned into a shrill hate fest... Between the lobbyists and the shock jocks, they're brainwashing their followers to use BAMN techniques... rather than a legitimate debate.... a sad day in American politics....

[East Detroit]

Partisans first; Americans second.

[Gistok]

Partisans first; Americans second.

Sadly it sure is getting that way.....

[East Detroit]

Sadly it sure is getting that way.....

Getting?

Its been that way since the Newt Gingrinch / Clinton wars. Made much worse by the Cheney threaten your patriotism brigade and the cable "news" for profit network talking heads / editorialists pretending to be unbiased journalists.

And people just fall for it, like its a football rivalry. Problem is, a football game usually doesn't have two teams both winning under the covers while the fans get ripped off.

People who totally align themselves in a binary fashion with a political party [[or lib vs neocon, capitalist vs socialist, ad nauseum) are lazy simpletons and at the root are partisans first and Americans second.

[gazhekwe]

Juan Williams:
Critics' attacks of President Obama are scarier than bias

Read more: http://tinyurl.com/ldefuz

[oladub]

Regarding the article. So far three hospitals have been credited with delivering our Obama to us. The article says that "all Hawaiian documents, officials and news stories of his birth conclusively prove he is an American." I would settle on knowing which of two Hawaiian hospitals he was born in. So which document has that information and what's the answer?

Also, the article says that "that Wilson's outrage was directed at Obama for saying his health care plan will not cover illegal immigrants." Since then President has told us that he intends to 'normalize', that is to say 'legalize' the status of illegal aliens here next year, is the author promising that after they are 'normalized, they won't be able to receive even emergency care her let alone be covered by Obamacare? If so, where's the documentation? Or are we supposed to pretend to be stupid and not link the effects of the normalization bill when combined with the health care bill?

[elganned]

Simple sleight-of-hand, oladub. Once they're "normalized", they're no longer "illegal".
Next question...

[jams]

Might be interesting think about how history might have developed if Native Americans had their own INS when Europeans arrived.

[Papasito]

The Republicans are softcore to Obama compared to the way the Democrats were to George Bush. Count your blessings the Republicans are not reverting to core values. They still compromise on principles and still have the delusion "across the isle" works for both parties.

Republicans are not a threat, Democrats have the White House and a majority that can't be hurt even if every Republican votes against Democratic legislation. I don't understand why you are even giving them your attention, you're helping their cause by doing so.

[gibran]

My guess is if a person is hired by an American to pick your fruit and slips a disc while working on American soil, they desrve to be cared for...after all they are people first..and if you want you lawns cut, roofs fixed, fruit and veggies picked for well below market rates ..maybe when they fall off a building we should provide care for them...or when they get heat stroke maybe we should provide for them..after all "aren't we a judeo-Christian nation" like some claim...and if you follow that logic, shouldn't we be our brothers keepers?

[elganned]

I am my brother's keeper. I keep him in a packing crate in the back yard.
We can't let him out again; you don't even want to hear about the last time...

[oladub]

Simple sleight-of-hand, oladub. Once they're "normalized", they're no longer "illegal".
Next question...

That's my point. They will recieve Obamacare. Obama is "deceptive".

Gibran, Great idea. Let'd take care of Americans instead of having a caste system. Let's start by putting Americans back to work instead of paying them unemployment. I dont want illegal aliens cutting my lawn, fixing my roof, and growing fruits and vegetables for me. Besides, I do most of that myself.

[gazhekwe]

Oh, goody, let's let the illegal aliens run around without care so if they contract an infectious disease they can give it to everyone else. Our very own homegrown bioweapon.

[jams]

Oh, goody, let's let the illegal aliens run around without care so if they contract an infectious disease they can give it to everyone else. Our very own homegrown bioweapon.

Agreed, this is just another diversion from the real issue, affordable Heathcare in this country.

[elganned]

That's my point. They will recieve Obamacare. Obama is "deceptive".

Grasping at straws there, oladub. Don't let your jaundiced view of "furriners" distract you from the need for reform.

I don't mind if a few crabs manage to get in with the fish, as long as there are enough fish so that we can all eat.

Gibran, Great idea. Let'd take care of Americans instead of having a caste system. Let's start by putting Americans back to work instead of paying them unemployment. I dont want illegal aliens cutting my lawn, fixing my roof, and growing fruits and vegetables for me.

Unemployment benefits are more than the aliens make for these jobs, so where's the incentive for Americans to do them? Or are you advocating that those who already don't have enough to live on should get even less?

[oladub]

Grasping at straws there, oladub. Don't let your jaundiced view of "furriners" distract you from the need for reform.

I don't mind if a few crabs manage to get in with the fish, as long as there are enough fish so that we can all eat.
Unemployment benefits are more than the aliens make for these jobs, so where's the incentive for Americans to do them? Or are you advocating that those who already don't have enough to live on should get even less?

I have a jaundiced view of illegal aliens and especially their cheating employers - not legal aliens.

You are not recognizing the effects of supply/demand. I am advocating that harsh punitive measures be taken against the cheating employers to provide them with an incentive to hire US workers. Since US workers will often not do jobs paying illegal aliens wages, employers of illegal aliens will have to either increase wages and benefits, go out of business, or take the chances of going to jail for hiring illegal aliens. The meat packing industry used to pay union wages until they started hiring illegal aliens. At the beginning of this recession, up to 30% of construction workers were thought to be illegal aliens. I know Americans will work in packing plants and construction but not at illegal alien wages. The cheating employers benefit from hiring illegal aliens while US taxpayers and employees lose. The question is whose side is the government supposed to be on. I think our government should represent its own citizens - especially when, as you put it, there are not enough fish to go around.

[Bobl]

Let's put a positive spin on this thread.
If Obama is indeed another Bill Clinton, we can look forward to lower crime rates, virtual full employment, and eventually a balanced budget, as we experienced under Clinton. All this despite the unprecedented mud slinging and politically charged investigations of Clinton's term.

How many forum members can say that they, their neighbors, or the country are not worse off since Clinton's term ended?

[elganned]

I have a jaundiced view of illegal aliens and especially their cheating employers - not legal aliens.

I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying your position.

You are not recognizing the effects of supply/demand. I am advocating that harsh punitive measures be taken against the cheating employers to provide them with an incentive to hire US workers. Since US workers will often not do jobs paying illegal aliens wages, employers of illegal aliens will have to either increase wages and benefits, go out of business, or take the chances of going to jail for hiring illegal aliens. The meat packing industry used to pay union wages until they started hiring illegal aliens. At the beginning of this recession, up to 30% of construction workers were thought to be illegal aliens. I know Americans will work in packing plants and construction but not at illegal alien wages. The cheating employers benefit from hiring illegal aliens while US taxpayers and employees lose. The question is whose side is the government supposed to be on. I think our government should represent its own citizens - especially when, as you put it, there are not enough fish to go around.

Fairly presented. So let's look at the supply/demand ramifications of what you propose, as you suggest.

If illegals are fired and Americans hired in their place, this would mean an immediate jump in prices for those industries where the illegals are currently used--say, meat packing and construction, to use your examples. Higher prices will suppress demand, leading to potentially fewer people employed in those areas. So some Americans may be able to go back to work, but probably fewer than you anticipate.

And certainly the higher cost of labor will force some businesses [[those who are already operating close to the edge) to close their doors, with the usual ripple effect in the peripheral job markets.

Will the net effect be better than we have? Possibly. But maybe not.

Don't misunderstand: I am not in favor of illegal aliens. But I think the negative impact of illegals on wages has been somewhat overblown. It's always easy to point to the "dang furriners" as the culprit when the situation is more complex than that simple answer would cover.

Industry has always sought the low ground in labor cost; that was what the Great Immigrations of the 19th Century were all about, with Chinese, Irish, Italians, and East Europeans flooding in and industry lapping them up to build railroads and work in sweat shops. Now that the cost of labor is high enough to support a decent standard of living here, they don't bring the foreigners here to work anymore--they send the jobs overseas. I don't know what the answer for that might be, I just know the pressure will continue so long as there is capitalism [[which I also don't oppose, but that's another discussion).

I'm actually looking forward to what Obama has in mind for "normalization"; maybe it's something I can in conscience support. I just know I can't find it in me to blame the immigrants. If you were making $0.50 a day in your homeland, and could come here to work for $0.50 an hour, wouldn't you take the chance?

[Detroitej72]

Count your blessings the Republicans are not reverting to core values. They still compromise on principles and still have the delusion "across the isle" works for both parties.

Show me where Republicans have compromised across the aisle since Obama became president, or did you forget them gleefully boasting that if health care goes down, it'll be his Waterloo? They are the most partisan group in recent memory to inhabit the walls of congress.

They wont compromise with Obama because they are acting like the divisive, lying, out of touch party that they have become.

[oladub]

I stand corrected. Thanks for clarifying your position.Fairly presented. So let's look at the supply/demand ramifications of what you propose, as you suggest.

If illegals are fired and Americans hired in their place, this would mean an immediate jump in prices for those industries where the illegals are currently used--say, meat packing and construction, to use your examples. Higher prices will suppress demand, leading to potentially fewer people employed in those areas. So some Americans may be able to go back to work, but probably fewer than you anticipate.

I agree with you. Some businesses would lose their edge if they couldn't rely on hiring illegal labor at cheaper rates and consequently go out of business. Higher prices would be offset by lower taxes though. Going back to meat packers who don't offer health care; their employees and families go to the emergency ward of the hospital where they are subsidized by taxpayers. When the packing plants were union, the employees had health care plans. Another thing we would see, as in Japan, is a greater effort to automate. As you mentioned, it must also be in the interests of business to produce here to prevent a further siphoning of jobs. The Obama administration is doing one thing right in this regard. It is threatening to tax the foreign profits of US companies although I would like to see that offset with tax cuts or reductions in the deficit but that is probably asking for too much.

[ccbatson]

Or...eliminate corrupt organized labor and level the playing field for true market forces to rule. Remember that legal immigration is not at issue, so it isn't as if there would be no immigrants at all.

[elganned]

Or...eliminate corrupt organized labor and level the playing field for true market forces to rule.

You mean like the AMA?