Death of Public Transportation

[expatriate]

I just discovered it is no longer possible to get a bus from Grosse Pointe to downtown Detroit except for two very early morning weekday runs an hour and a half apart. SMART now goes only as far as the city limits where one must transfer to the DOT route 9 that makes 40 stops and takes almost an hour to go those 8 short miles. Maybe it is time to abandon the delusion that public transportation will ever be a thing here anymore. As someone who has supported all of the millages in support of transit in the past I'm beginning to think it was not money well spent. Perhaps bus service should just be scrapped altogether and vulnerable populations be better served by subsidized Uber/Lyft transportation.

[SFDS]

You may be on to something. This California City and the transportation agency teamed up for this service for seniors.

[Richard]

That seems a bit counterproductive,have 100 little Ubers running about verses a couple of busses,I wonder how many stolen childhoods that entails?

Not in that area but I lived in a city where I spent 4 hours a day dealing with buses and transfers just to work an 8 hour day.

Now that same city has buses and trains where you can cross the region in under 20 minutes.

[gratiotfaced]

I'm just wondering where the Michigan Legislature is on this. It's not news that Metro Detroit's transit is an embarrassment, but I'm not seeing much urgency from Democrats to rectify the situation either.

We have a great, but small window of opportunity right now.

Young people are still leaving the state, often seeking more vibrant urban areas elsewhere. Our largest city could be switching to a LVT model, which incentivizes density over sprawl. Our aging populace will be increasingly immobile, unable to drive themselves. Climate change, of course, is also a reason to seek alternatives to the car.

There's also billions of federal infrastructure dollars up for grabs -- but only for a limited time. Other states and cities are competing for these dollars, so we need to be moving much faster if we want a piece of the pie. I doubt we'll see another huge, federal infrastructure stimulus like this for at least a few decades.

All that's to say that the moment is right for a huge transit investment in Michigan. We have the money [[feds), the motive [[demographics/climate/economy), and the means [[Democratic majority).

Hopefully Democrats are working on something behind the scenes, because this window of opportunity is closing soon. We're going to be kicking ourselves for decades to come if we don't take action.

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm just wondering where the Michigan Legislature is on this. It's not news that Metro Detroit's transit is an embarrassment, but I'm not seeing much urgency from Democrats to rectify the situation either.

No urgency, because they have complete control of the city right now. When was the last non-Democratic mayor? 1960?

...snip...

All that's to say that the moment is right for a huge transit investment in Michigan. We have the money [[feds), the motive [[demographics/climate/economy), and the means [[Democratic majority).

What's missing is incentives. Currently, the only solutions to problems is to increase funding. It looks good to the voters. That it accomplishes nothing doesn't harm the incumbent politicians. And the only real solution [[see above privatize) is off-the-table, since it 1) is the opposite of the current party's platform, and 2) heaven forbid, it might work.

[gratiotfaced]

I'm talking about Democratic control of the state government, which hasn't happened since the 80s. Detroit's mayor can't do regional transit alone.

Privatization of transit would be an instant failure. The profit motive would lead to almost every route being dramatically reduced in frequency or eliminated entirely. That's the exact opposite of what's needed.

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm talking about Democratic control of the state government, which hasn't happened since the 80s. Detroit's mayor can't do regional transit alone.

Ah, I see. Gotta be regional to work. Of course. Feed more money into the dysfunctional beast. That'll do the trick.

Privatization of transit would be an instant failure. The profit motive would lead to almost every route being dramatically reduced in frequency or eliminated entirely. That's the exact opposite of what's needed.

The profit motive encourages more service, not less. You don't need to stop running one existing bus line. Keep funding them. Simply allow private individuals to provide whatever other transportation option where they can make money. Let DDOT keep pissing money, and occasionally running busses on time. But stop the current monopoly.

Can anyone tell us why private transportation and jitneys were banned from the streets? Were there significant problems that couldn't be honestly managed, or was it a money-grab by gov't. What's the story of monopoly civic busses?

[ABetterDetroit]

Ah, I see. Gotta be regional to work. Of course. Feed more money into the dysfunctional beast. That'll do the trick.

The profit motive encourages more service, not less. You don't need to stop running one existing bus line. Keep funding them. Simply allow private individuals to provide whatever other transportation option where they can make money. Let DDOT keep pissing money, and occasionally running busses on time. But stop the current monopoly.

Can anyone tell us why private transportation and jitneys were banned from the streets? Were there significant problems that couldn't be honestly managed, or was it a money-grab by gov't. What's the story of monopoly civic busses?

How are Uber and Lyft not privately operated for profit public transportation enterprises? They certainly have carved a competitive profitable niche.

[Gistok]

How are Uber and Lyft not privately operated for profit public transportation enterprises? They certainly have carved a competitive profitable niche.

Not to mention cab companies.

[Johnnny5]

How are Uber and Lyft not privately operated for profit public transportation enterprises? They certainly have carved a competitive profitable niche.

While they are technically "for profit" neither Uber or Lyft have ever made a single dime of profit. In fact, they both lose billions every single year [[Uber sometimes in just one quarter) and have done so for years.

[Jason]

Ah, I see. Gotta be regional to work. Of course. Feed more money into the dysfunctional beast. That'll do the trick.

Since this discussion is about regional [[suburban) bus service, the solution is regional by nature. SMART, the regional transit agency, is a legal entity created by the state legislature.

The profit motive encourages more service, not less. You don't need to stop running one existing bus line. Keep funding them. Simply allow private individuals to provide whatever other transportation option where they can make money. Let DDOT keep pissing money, and occasionally running busses on time. But stop the current monopoly.

DDOT and SMART's performance metrics [[cost per revenue mile and cost per revenue hour) are about the same and are on par with the rest of the country. This makes sense because the main drivers of cost are things like the cost of labor and the cost of fuel, which don't really have economies of scale or very good ways of making them more efficient. If you have an hour of bus service, you have to pay the driver an hour's wage, and you need to buy enough fuel for the bus to be driven for one hour.

Can anyone tell us why private transportation and jitneys were banned from the streets? Were there significant problems that couldn't be honestly managed, or was it a money-grab by gov't. What's the story of monopoly civic busses?

Except for in a few asian countries, every private transit company in the world went bankrupt. In the asian countries they survived with heavy government subsidy. I don't think there were any transit companies in the world that survived as what anyone would consider to be profitable for more than a few decades, and the fact that none of them really lasted longer than the lifecycle costs of their infrastructure just shows that it was never a functional business model to begin with.

It's also worth pointing out that the business model wasn't really about providing transportation services. It was about making money on other businesses which you could artificially control by abusing your monopoly on transportation. The main one was real estate. It's not hard to make money by buying low and selling high when you're the one that determines the value.

[ABetterDetroit]

While they are technically "for profit" neither Uber or Lyft have ever made a single dime of profit. In fact, they both lose billions every single year [[Uber sometimes in just one quarter) and have done so for years.

I stand corrected. I thought Uber had cleared last year but was wrong. Still, a healthy gross coming out of the pandemic.

https://www.google.com/finance/quote...IRAZ&window=1Y

[Richard]

Since this discussion is about regional [[suburban) bus service, the solution is regional by nature. SMART, the regional transit agency, is a legal entity created by the state legislature.



DDOT and SMART's performance metrics [[cost per revenue mile and cost per revenue hour) are about the same and are on par with the rest of the country. This makes sense because the main drivers of cost are things like the cost of labor and the cost of fuel, which don't really have economies of scale or very good ways of making them more efficient. If you have an hour of bus service, you have to pay the driver an hour's wage, and you need to buy enough fuel for the bus to be driven for one hour.



Except for in a few asian countries, every private transit company in the world went bankrupt. In the asian countries they survived with heavy government subsidy. I don't think there were any transit companies in the world that survived as what anyone would consider to be profitable for more than a few decades, and the fact that none of them really lasted longer than the lifecycle costs of their infrastructure just shows that it was never a functional business model to begin with.

It's also worth pointing out that the business model wasn't really about providing transportation services. It was about making money on other businesses which you could artificially control by abusing your monopoly on transportation. The main one was real estate. It's not hard to make money by buying low and selling high when you're the one that determines the value.

Brightline that goes from Miami to Orlando and now expanding to Jacksonville and Tampa with many stops in between ,125 mph is privately owned.

When you get off in Orlando you can transfer to sun coast rail
which covers the entire region,larger then Detroits region,also privately owned.

For what it is costing you for one bridge plus the additional yearly maintenance costs the Detroit region could have easily implemented a rail system that connected everybody verses what percentage of the population will be using the bridge 2 times a day?

Uber and the other taxi alternatives are like any other business,once they start to be profitable the government will want their cut and start regulating them to death,not a good idea for one to be putting their eggs in that basket long term.

[Danny]

Well at least the SMART Bus System is fighting very hard to keep cities from opting out. Here are propose routing changes.

https://www.smartbus.org/About/News/...ce-adjustments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WDYb9-9b9o&t=247s

[stasu1213]

SMART had discontinued one its most busiest line from running into and from Detroit when the pandemic had started. That was the 610 Kercheval/Harper line. The least used line , 620 line, resumed traveling into Detroit in 2021 while the 610 continued to end at the city limits. I had suggested to SMART to resume their most busiest Grosse Pointe line[[610) to run to downtown Detroit. My suggestion had fallen on deaf ears. How is the millage money being spent? SMART had taken backward steps since the end of the Pandemic in improving it's services and increasing ridership. A few will say that there are more workers remotely working and are not using public transportation. Many workers are returning to their offices. SMART also is not doing a good job encouraging metro Detroiters to use SMART especially as an alternative to paying high parking lots and meter rate while attending events such as The Grand Prix, The Movement Festival, or sporting, or entertainment events occurring in Downtown Detroit

[expatriate]

SMART had discontinued one its most busiest line from running into and from Detroit when the pandemic had started. That was the 610 Kercheval/Harper line. The least used line , 620 line, resumed traveling into Detroit in 2021 while the 610 continued to end at the city limits. I had suggested to SMART to resume their most busiest Grosse Pointe line[[610) to run to downtown Detroit. My suggestion had fallen on deaf ears. How is the millage money being spent? SMART had taken backward steps since the end of the Pandemic in improving it's services and increasing ridership. A few will say that there are more workers remotely working and are not using public transportation. Many workers are returning to their offices. SMART also is not doing a good job encouraging metro Detroiters to use SMART especially as an alternative to paying high parking lots and meter rate while attending events such as The Grand Prix, The Movement Festival, or sporting, or entertainment events occurring in Downtown Detroit

SMART still runs the 635 down Jefferson, but just twice a day in the very early morning and early afternoon, presumably for downtown workers. I have no idea if they have lots of riders.

[stasu1213]

How are Uber and Lyft not privately operated for profit public transportation enterprises? They certainly have carved a competitive profitable niche.

It would cost $4.00 round trip on a SMART/DDOT 4 hour pass. It will cost up to $30 to $40 round trip using Uber or Lyft

[Zacha341]

^ Right! Uber and Lyft can get very pricey, fast.

And their prices vary depending on time of day and destination.

I've both apps on my phone, and the few times I've used them I checked both to compare lowest minute-to-minute. This is especially so for long runs such as to and from Metro Airport.

[stasu1213]

SMART still runs the 635 down Jefferson, but just twice a day in the very early morning and early afternoon, presumably for downtown workers. I have no idea if they have lots of riders.

I don't know. As the Grosse Pointe/St Clair Shores workforce that once lined Michigan, Griswold, Larned, and Jefferson grew older and retired during the past 13 years the ridership decreased as well. The focus should be redirected to the techies and artist whom live in the above mentioned suburban areas and want to commute to Detroit for numerous reasons

[Rocket]

it is no longer possible to get a bus from Grosse Pointe to downtown Detroit except for two very early morning weekday runs an hour and a half apart.

Sooo, people should be able to live and work anywhere they want, and it's up to the rest of us to pay for their transportation?

How about the Grosse Pointer buys themselves a $1,600 car to use to get to work? Or moves to Detroit along a bus route?

Why is it that the solution to everyone's problems always have to be paid for by others, via government programs that triple the cost?

[stasu1213]

Sooo, people should be able to live and work anywhere they want, and it's up to the rest of us to pay for their transportation?

How about the Grosse Pointer buys themselves a $1,600 car to use to get to work? Or moves to Detroit along a bus route?

Why is it that the solution to everyone's problems always have to be paid for by others, via government programs that triple the cost?

Well.... it will also pay for those Detroiters whim can't afford vehicles but still have to commute to their jobs in the suburbs or tri County areas

[expatriate]

Sooo, people should be able to live and work anywhere they want, and it's up to the rest of us to pay for their transportation?

How about the Grosse Pointer buys themselves a $1,600 car to use to get to work? Or moves to Detroit along a bus route?

Why is it that the solution to everyone's problems always have to be paid for by others, via government programs that triple the cost?

Actually it is a bus that serves mostly Macomb county and only passes through Grosse Pointe at the last stretch before heading downtown. I am personally happy to bicycle those short 8 miles from the GP city limits on the new Jefferson bike lanes but the issue was really about public transportation as as a vital element to urban revitalization.

[kuuma]

i can't stand the idea of throwing in the towel because we're off to a slow start. let's not forget certain entities in the suburban counties fought tooth and nail for decades to wipe out transit from the culture in this region, and as the politics of the state and region become more forward-looking, we are starting to turn the corner in the hearts and minds about the desirability of a useful transit network. now is the worst time to give up.

imo Detroit should do the most it can on its own before involving the outer cities, since it seems like the intra-county network involve so much more red tape. DDoT's new plan is encouraging, as are the greenways which i would count as transit-adjacent [[i've biked to corktown 3 times since the sw greenway opened last week).

i'll reiterate that retrofitting the grand trunk line that amtrak uses into a shared local line with a few key stations at population centers would be a huge boost for connectivity without the price tag of new track. there's a lot we can do before getting into the multi-municipality weeds. let's see Detroit build something that adjacent cities then want to get in on.

[xrockerboy]

i can't stand the idea of throwing in the towel because we're off to a slow start. let's not forget certain entities in the suburban counties fought tooth and nail for decades to wipe out transit from the culture in this region, and as the politics of the state and region become more forward-looking, we are starting to turn the corner in the hearts and minds about the desirability of a useful transit network. now is the worst time to give up.

imo Detroit should do the most it can on its own before involving the outer cities, since it seems like the intra-county network involve so much more red tape. DDoT's new plan is encouraging, as are the greenways which i would count as transit-adjacent [[i've biked to corktown 3 times since the sw greenway opened last week).

i'll reiterate that retrofitting the grand trunk line that amtrak uses into a shared local line with a few key stations at population centers would be a huge boost for connectivity without the price tag of new track. there's a lot we can do before getting into the multi-municipality weeds. let's see Detroit build something that adjacent cities then want to get in on.

Speaking of the suburbs https://twitter.com/kayleighrenel/st...O6cZ-8F6xw5ubA

[Zacha341]

$1600 car? Where? We purchase used cars regularly [avoiding the car note scene] and find little out there worth driving under 3K.

Though with the dealerships over-stocked perhaps they'll make a deal......

...How about the Grosse Pointer buys themselves a $1,600 car to use to get to work? Or moves to Detroit along a bus route?