Lack of Riverfront Development Just Due to Lack of Money?

[royce]

I drove along Atwater yesterday and there is still a severe lack of development along the riverfront, other than the RiverWalk. Is it just due to a lack of money? With all of the vacant waterfront property on both sides of Atwater Street, the City still can't find developers eager to build residential and retail developments? Is it just due to a lack of money? Or is there something else at play? Is the city afraid that if you build along the riverfront, wealthier residents will move from their neighborhoods such as Boston Edison, Palmer Park, Sherwood Forest, and Indian Village, depleting the viability of those neighborhoods?

The stretch of riverfront along Atwater from the GM/RenCen, to Stroh River Place could hold thousands of residents and retail. Orleans Landing is a start, but it could have been designed to hold more residents and offer some bonified retail for restaurants and shops. There was an announcement back in 2020 or 2021 that a new residential development just west of Orleans Landing was going to be in the works. I haven't heard anything or seen an ounce of dirt turned, indicating its start.

I have a ton of additional questions. Is much of the land still held by property owners waiting for the city to give them a bigger payout than what's reasonable? Are environmental issues with properties keeping developers at bay? Is the city holding on to land to award it only to Detroit/Minority based developers? Or is it due to a lack of vision on the part of the powers that be? Do other cities have these same kinds of issues when it comes to developing their riverfronts? I'm at a loss as to why it's taking so long for development along Detroit's riverfront to get started. Somebody help make sense of this. And thank you in advance.

[K-slice]

GM, and to a lesser degree, Aretha Franklin Amphitheater are the two biggest impediments to riverfront development. Both take up huge amounts of space for parking. Stroh also has a mass of undeveloped land and rotting buildings at the foot of Jos Campau.

A quick look at Regrid reveals the city own most of the other empty land around Atwater St. which I'm sire they would sell to the right person.

[casscorridor]

The riverfront, along with the stadium area, seem like good examples of land owners sitting on land and reaping the reward of its ever increasing value, but never actually improving it.

There is, however, an effort by the City to reform property taxes and create a land value tax, which would tax undeveloped land at a greatly increased rate than occupied land. In theory, this would incentivize landowners to either develop and improve their land or sell it to someone who will, rather than just sit on it. But the jury is still out and if this would work in a low to zero growth city like Detroit.

See:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/detroit...hange-5e81cbcc

https://youtu.be/gJqCaklMv6M

[Gistok]

GM, and to a lesser degree, Aretha Franklin Amphitheater are the two biggest impediments to riverfront development. Both take up huge amounts of space for parking. Stroh also has a mass of undeveloped land and rotting buildings at the foot of Jos Campau.

A quick look at Regrid reveals the city own most of the other empty land around Atwater St. which I'm sire they would sell to the right person.

I know that you and Royce really dislike Chene Park [Aretha Franklin Amphitheater], but it was one of the 3 riverfront parks that originated the riverfront restoration. When they first built it, it was with a 3,000 seat amphitheater... and then later it was ripped up and enlarged to a 5,000 seat amphitheater. The nautical tie-in of boats harbored in the river during concerts is kinda cool.

Now for the negatives. I totally agree that the sea of parking north of the park sucks!! Also the Riverwalk "wrap around". And with Live Nations doing the programming, I can imagine that it is annoying for nearby apartment dwellers to enjoy an evening on their balconies [or leaving their windows open].

I don't know how to fix the parking issue, but it would be nice if the Symphony moved their summer outdoor program to the Amphitheater from out at Meadowbrook. I think more soothing music would help fix the "noise" issues.

However, many millions have been spent building the 3,000 seat amphitheater, and many more millions were spent on the replacement 5,000 seat amphitheater. Destroying all of that AGAIN, is a big waste of scarce city dollars.

But yeah... the music at that amphitheater is not exactly head banging good fun for the nearby residents.

[Richard]

the way around that would be if you purchase for speculation a property with a derelict building on it that really needs to be demolished you would be giving them a reason not to,untill the city forced it which would be expensive to the tax payers.

Or you could purchase the property and demolish 3walls and the roof while leaving the facade or just leave any wall and it would still qualify as being developed and not a vacant lot because it would retain a structural element.

They do in other countries have that system where vacant commercial and residential units are taxed at a very high rate in order to keep them occupied and discourage vacancies.

Their intent is because they have a shortage of availability.

I would not believe that would be the case in Detroit.

In this country when somebody buys a piece of property it is really hard and expensive for cities to dictate to them when they should develop it and even more so because you have both development pro and anti development opposition.

There was a lady I used to mow her lawn for when I was a kid,she had and lived on “the last “ 2 acres,the city fought her for over 40 years to get that land for a city park,every way they could think of,she passed away at age 94 and they still had not been able to get that land.

We have land and property rights in this country that few enjoy elsewhere.

Its not that easy

[expatriate]

Orleans Landing was built with lots of ground floor commercial space but it seems to be mostly unoccupied. There is some sort of major construction going on at Owens Park [[foot of Iroquois and E. Jefferson), but I have no idea what it is. I still think they are missing an opportunity to rehab the riverfront Whittier building.

[royce]

Gistok, the Aretha Amphitheater is in need of some major renovations. The seats in particular are in bad shape. The restrooms are in bad shape. Instead of spending millions to renovate it, move the amphitheater to Hart Plaza where the Ford Auditorium used to be. Problems with parking and noise from summer concerts are eliminated. Then, after dismantling the amphitheater, return Chene Park to a park.

Expatriate, the problem with the retail in Orleans Landing is that it is too small. There are support beams taking up a lot of the space for the retail units and so there's not a lot of room for a nice size bar or restaurant. Also, the ceiling height is very low, there's really no room for storage, and there's no room for a descent restroom needed for a bar or restaurant. I think the thinking was the retail space would be used for an insurance or law office with just a few people. They wouldn't bring in a constant flow of people and car traffic that would disrupt the tenants like a restaurant or bar would.

And I've seen development at Owen Park. Since there's construction going on there, I hope they put some picnic tables or a kid's playground there. For years it has just been a vacant field of grass. My ideal situation would be to decrease the park's size at Jefferson and put in a new residential tower with ground floor retail. Then, connect the road behind the taller Whittier tower and extend it west through the park and through the vacant lot west of the park to curve around another residential tower on the land to the west. The park would be south of this new road. In addition, the River Terrace apartments to the east of the park would be torn down and another residential tower with ground floor retail would go up. And finally, another residential tower with ground floor retail would go on the parking lot of the smaller Whittier tower. Somewhere along all that development would be a parking deck or underground parking.

I never understood why the city would allow for two parks, Owen Park and Erma Henderson Park to be so close together. And since Owen Park was just vacant land, why keep it functioning as a park. Again, I hope they put some park equipment where they're working.

[K-slice]

I know that you and Royce really dislike Chene Park [Aretha Franklin Amphitheater], but it was one of the 3 riverfront parks that originated the riverfront restoration. When they first built it, it was with a 3,000 seat amphitheater... and then later it was ripped up and enlarged to a 5,000 seat amphitheater. The nautical tie-in of boats harbored in the river during concerts is kinda cool.

I wouldn't say I "really dislike it", to state my position; while Chene/Aretha is a very unique and enjoyable venue, it was built in another time, for another time. With the changing feelings about the riverfront there are now much higher and more neighborhood appropriate uses for the space.

Sticking to the area specified by the OP [[they kinda singled out the Atwater corridor in the initial post) you need look no further than the 4 large users of space in the area to place blame for stagnant development. And they are, from worst best [[IMHO); GM, Stroh's, Chene Park, and The city of Detroit.

[southen]

Gilbert keeps investing in the area and is currently putting money into beautification around the Stroh's complex. I think unlike the big sweeping projects that Bedrock has proposed downtown they will be building future structures on a longer timeline. Once he starts putting shovels in the ground you may see others start to do the same.

Orleans Landing remains disappointing on many levels. It is occupied but looks like the cheap lifestyle centers they put up in the suburbs to appear urban. It doesn't really inspire others to put higher end residential in the area. It will take either GM moving forward on some of their lots or Gilbert building new to jumpstart things. The success or failure of the JLA site could also either help or hinder future east riverfront development.

[expatriate]

Thanks for that insight on Orleans Landing commercial. I must say I like all your suggestions on the redevelopment of the East Jefferson riverfront. If we got to vote for city planner you would have mine. I agree that it is curious to have Owen and Henderson parks so close unless it is simply a legacy of what had previously been buildings now demolished. The River Terrace is certainly an eyesore, but not sure I would like the entire waterfront view blocked by high-rises either.

[kuuma]

One of the coolest adaptive reuse plans in the city that hasn't started and may not start is IMO the Stone Soap building on Riopelle/Franklin. Just a really cool design and what could be the start of an actual riverfront neighborhood. instead it just feels like everyone is waiting for someone else to be the first. especially with the immense framework plan from Skidmore Owings & Merrill painting a pretty optimistic future of what this could be... but the years keep ticking by, and as I visit other urban places I used to live in that have been constantly changing at fast pace, I once again wonder what is uniquely Detroit that keeps this kind of progress from happening.

[KnnNike]

The Aretha is a major impediment. It bisects the Riverwalk, and is a huge barrier for pedestrians.

The music is also terrible. I don't begrudge anyone whatever crap they want to listen to. But I live a mile from the Aretha, and on a warm summer night you can hear performers yelling the N-word and any number of other trash lyrics from inside the amphitheater.

No developer is going to want to build more residential in this area until the noise issues with the Aretha get fixed.

[EGrant]

The Aretha is a major impediment. It bisects the Riverwalk, and is a huge barrier for pedestrians.

At a minimum, the sidewalk on Atwater where the Riverwalk "detours" needs to be fixed and made more cycle/pedestrian friendly. We're close to having miles of uninterrupted Riverwalk from Belle Isle to nearly the Ambassador Bridge, except for the amphitheater, which has a crumbling sidewalk next to a smelly swamp.

[mwilbert]

At a minimum, the sidewalk on Atwater where the Riverwalk "detours" needs to be fixed and made more cycle/pedestrian friendly. We're close to having miles of uninterrupted Riverwalk from Belle Isle to nearly the Ambassador Bridge, except for the amphitheater, which has a crumbling sidewalk next to a smelly swamp.

Just want to agree. The "swamp" is variably smelly, but it's not really attractive and the sidewalk is bad and the whole detour detracts from that portion of the Riverwalk. I wish I had a cheap and easy solution, but I don't--maybe they could put a causeway over the water on the river side of the amphitheater. Probably too many people would stand on it during concerts and the whole thing would collapse.

[Lowell]

There is an inherent disadvantage to the Riverfront. It is a dead end. Traffic and customers can only come from one direction and don’t have easy access to the rest of downtown.

I’m convinced that has been the doom to RenCen, Asian Village and other efforts. Even the RenCen People Mover station and too long elevated walk across Jefferson haven’t been enough to salvage things.

Hopefully the increasing popularity of and foot traffic on the Riverwalk, particularly after its completion, will create a critical mass but even that may not be enough.

[K-slice]

There is an inherent disadvantage to the Riverfront. It is a dead end. Traffic and customers can only come from one direction and don’t have easy access to the rest of downtown.

Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't understand, but can you explain what you mean by this? No rudeness intended, I just actually don't understand what your saying :P

[royce]

K-Slice, I agree. Lowell, there's access to the riverfront from three directions [[north, east, and west). I can get to the riverfront very quickly in any of those directions. It's the decisions made by the powers that be that have made the riverfront inaccessible. The first was to put heavy industry along the river, but that was over 100 years ago. As the riverfront has been cleared for the RiverWalk and parks, the decision-makers have to make better decisions on how to develop the riverfront. That's why I started the thread. I don't know what's the hold up.

One issue that I have about the riverfront and access to it deals with the distance from the river's edge to Atwater Street. There's still a great distance between the two. I think that there should be another road in between. I could envision a road that would parallel Atwater beginning at the edge of the sidewalk of the parking lot at the Rivard/Cullen Plaza that extends to the giant hill at Orleans Street. Some restaurants and residential could exists between this new street and Atwater.

In some early renderings of the riverfront by GM, there was a new road between Atwater and the river that travelled very close to the RiverWalk, curving into Rivard Street right at the foot of Rivard/Cullen Plaza. I think car traffic closer to the river's edge brings people closer to it and gives a sense of security. Imagine if the western edge of Belle Isle was cut off to car traffic. I think a lot of people would not want to access the area because they'd have to do more walking to get to the river's edge and not feel safe because the distance to the river's edge and the traffic flow and parking spots would be so far away.

In addition, some of the north-south roads should be extended south of Atwater so that you could drop someone off right at the RiverWalk. I mentioned in the thread about Gilbert buying Stroh River Place about opening up Adair Street all the way to the RiverWalk to increase foot traffic in that area. Then it would be nice if Harbortown added some residential along Adair and you'd have people walking up and down the street, creating foot traffic and a sense of safety in that area.

I think the lack of development along the riverfront gives the appearance that it's not accessible. However, if you have better access by way of streets that get you closer to the riverfront and more residential, shops, and restaurants on the riverfront, then you'll have a more vibrant riverfront. That's a given, right?

[expatriate]

While improving a few access streets from Jefferson might be a good idea, I think adding an additional and parallel street south of Atwater is a terrible one. Atwater is barely 500 feet from that street to the river at its widest point, hardly an insurmountable distance. It is literally named "at water" and adding more vehicle traffic is not what is needed in what should be a park for pedestrians and cyclists.

[masterblaster]

In some early renderings of the riverfront by GM, there was a new road between Atwater and the river that travelled very close to the RiverWalk, curving into Rivard Street right at the foot of Rivard/Cullen Plaza. I think car traffic closer to the river's edge brings people closer to it and gives a sense of security. Imagine if the western edge of Belle Isle was cut off to car traffic. I think a lot of people would not want to access the area because they'd have to do more walking to get to the river's edge and not feel safe because the distance to the river's edge and the traffic flow and parking spots would be so far...

I appreciate your long-time contributions to the forum, but I disagree wholeheartedly about adding a road between Atwater and the River. In my opinion, to make it a truly fantastic public gathering place, that space should be left for engaging people, not people having to dodge/cross cars/roads/traffic.

Pedestrian-access and bike-access to the River has even been increased recently with the addition of the Joseph Campau Greenway and the Southwest Greenway

To truly make it a destination, IMHO, we need to bring more dining/cafes, more art/statues, more recreational attractions like the Atwater Beach/Valade Park and the Ralph C. Wilson Park, and a center-running trolley down Jefferson to Belle Isle.

I have even championed on this forum that the Riverwalk needs to be widened in some areas to provide bike-only lanes like they have on Windsor's riverfront, see below. Folks riding bikes and rollerblading have to dodge people who are leisurely walking/strolling and it is not a good experience for them.

https://www.ontariobybike.ca/images/...Waterfront.jpg

The Riverwalk is disjointed. It has so many stops and start. The portion of the Riverwalk where this is really glaring is east of the hill. The Riverwalk basically becomes a narrow sidewalk from the hill all the way to Joseph Campau.

[royce]

Expatriate and Masterblaster, one of the things I like about Windsor's Riverside Drive is the fact that you can see the Detroit River and Detroit's skyline and that it's not far from the river's edge. The closest we come to that along our side of the river is on Atwater in front of the GM RenCen [[approximately two city blocks?). Nowhere else along our side of the river can you get that close to the river's edge while still in a car. When I drive pass and see all of the people along the RiverWalk, it makes me want to get out and take part in the activities. And because I see a number of people in the area, I feel safe in the area.

Now, if I was driving along Atwater just west of Rivard, I would have a difficult time seeing that activity along the RiverWalk in that area. If it was on a day that was cold or when the sun was just rising, I might not get out of my car because I couldn't see people and I might not feel safe getting out of my car as a result. This is what I was trying to explain in my last post about if they cut off car traffic to the western end of Belle Isle. Because the outer road on Belle Isle is close to the sidewalk and the river's edge, you can see the area and assess if it' safe or not. If you don't see a lot of cars or people, you might not feel safe getting out of your car to walk in the area, picnic in the area, or just lounge in the area.

If I designed a city's riverfront, I would put a road close to the river's edge for the reasons I have stated. In addition, on the other side of that road, I would have homes, apartments, shops and restaurants. That's my vision. Everyone has their own.

[Richard]

Not supposed to able to drive close to a river walk,your supposed to walk and enjoy the view not from a car.

It should be friendly to all forms of movement safely except vehicles and provide flow and continuity from one end of it to another with no choke points.

It should also be wide enough to accommodate events along the whole course,like a pop up art show while still retaining the ability for movement.

You have to keep things changing so it does not get stale without the been there done that thing.

The riverfront is your new Belle Isle,you have to top what it was once was or you are just playing around.The river front is one of the cities greatest assets now,even better if somebody can bike it daily to work from one end to another.

[royce]

Richard, I don't know the exact distance from the ocean to the main street in Miami Beach, but that road still seems closer to the ocean front than Detroit's Atwater Street to the Detroit River. Because there's no beach area along the Detroit River along the RiverWalk, the street that parallels it shouldn't be so far back as Atwater. All the activities you mentioned could still take place along the Detroit riverfront if there was a road created that was half way between Atwater and the riverfront.

[Richard]

Miami was built as a playground unless you take A1A which was the original highway and go through the protected ereas,you never really see the ocean because of the development.

Streets leading to the beaches ,just dead end at them.

When you look at how cities were formed and the river was the industrial base it is different then ocean.

Most of the time it will be industrial on the river with a road following parallel in order to move the goods as they to came in.

The river was the main flow of commerce.

They have been working on our version of a river walk,the river was a tributary of the bay and contained fishery’s,canaries,power plant etc,gas works etc.

The difference is they did not scorch and burn,they offered 20 year leases for $1 and private investment came in and pumped millions into it,creating restaurants and different venues in the existing industrial buildings,there is never enough public money to do everything we want to do.

Yes you can drive along the parallel road and see the river and the river itself is a marine road of sorts,so you can arrive by car or boat.

But that’s the way it has been for the last 150 years,so that base was already there.

There is no right or wrong in your suggestions and I am not saying they are right or wrong,

You know what your goals are and what you want to achieve,you just have to look at what you have and how can you adapt it to work,the only thing I can say is when you talk about moving or creating roads,it can take up to 10 years to get them studied,designed and built,everybody and their mother brother has to get their cheese,so it’s not like you can think of one and it is there tomorrow.

It’s one of those things where you have to create the big picture and then implement it in phases over time,there is a lot of politics involved in it also.

Stuff like this,unless you get your local representative into it,you end up yelling at the wall,the only thing you have as leverage is your vote,if you want to get big projects done you have to learn how to leverage your vote.

Politicians are lazy and as much as they tell you they are looking out for you,unless you pretend you are the mafia and strong arm them,they are going to do as little as possible.

That seems to be the weak link in Detroit,the fifedoms are running the city,when it should be the people.

[Gistok]

Atwater Street only goes from where Joe Louis Arena used to be, to Joseph Campau [Stroh's River Place].

If you look at a map of the east waterfront, there is only a 3 block section of that area where a street closer than Atwater is even feasible. There are 3 parks [[Milliken, Chene, Valade) that are in the way of part of the rest of the way, so any purpose that a street closer to the river would be negated by the shortness of how long that street could be...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/At...2Fg%2F1vc_r0j6

[royce]

Gistok, the road I'm suggesting would extend from Rivard to Orleans. Look at the sidewalk along the parking lot at Rivard/Cullen Plaza. The road would start there. Another road would be the one GM proposed years ago that would start at St. Antoine and would parallel the RiverWalk along its northern sections and terminate at Rivard. Another road, east of Valde Park could be created through the current parking lot just east of Valde Park and connect to the road that is called River Place that's in front of the old Talon Building [[intersects Jos Campau). This last road, if not opened for car traffic could definitely be used for bicycles. Well, that's my other two cents.