End of the Year Midtown-ish and Downtown Projects

[ShadowSoarer]

So I've started this list a few months back in August, selectively picking mostly the larger Midtown project and a few Downtown projects. Most of these projects haven't yet started, but I have also included some projects under construction such as the City Modern, Midtown West, and Brush + Watson.

Since then apart from the Coda breaking ground there really hasn't been much change. There has been more details on District Detroit projects, but I've only include 3 of them.

It is understandable that development projects take time, but it just seems like so much time is spent with projects in idle. For example if the AC Hotel doesn't break ground by April 2023 then it would be 5 years since a hotel was announced even though there is a large need for hotels in Detroit. The City Modern is on the last set of units but at the rate that they are going doesn't look like they'll be done until at least end of 2023 which by then would've taken them 7 years to finish the project.

Hopefully most of these projects will start in 2023, but at this rate I'm not so sure.

[401don]

Monroe Blocks will not happen unless drastic changes in the office market occur in the next few years. Gilbert already took the tax incentives for it and moved it to the Hudson site.

[stasu1213]

Brush Park still has many empty storefronts along John R and also Brush Street. This past year Bodega Market and Saucy Pizzz had opened along those straps but growth of retail had stalled.

[renf]

Thank you very much for the detailed list of project and for the information about their current status.

[royce]

Monroe Blocks will not happen unless drastic changes in the office market occur in the next few years. Gilbert already took the tax incentives for it and moved it to the Hudson site.

I don't understand why Gilbert just won't go completely residential concerning the Monroe Block. There, as expected, would be ground floor retail with room for small office operations like an insurance company or tax preparations office. The office market is not going to ever return to pre-Covid days so I don't know why Gilbert is holding out.

[stasu1213]

I don't understand why Gilbert just won't go completely residential concerning the Monroe Block. There, as expected, would be ground floor retail with room for small office operations like an insurance company or tax preparations office. The office market is not going to ever return to pre-Covid days so I don't know why Gilbert is holding out.

As long it's not a fly by night government rip off tax preparation office

[401don]

I don't understand why Gilbert just won't go completely residential concerning the Monroe Block. There, as expected, would be ground floor retail with room for small office operations like an insurance company or tax preparations office. The office market is not going to ever return to pre-Covid days so I don't know why Gilbert is holding out.

I don't think he's really holding out. He knows the project is dead. It's just not good business or politics to say so. He may build residential there eventually if that's what the market dictates but he has a lot of other projects to complete and get occupied before starting more residential highrises, especially the way costs have escalated. Combine rising interest rates, materials and labor increases and the cost/sq. ft. equation probably doesn't come close to working right now.

[Satiricalivory]

I don't think he's really holding out. He knows the project is dead. It's just not good business or politics to say so.

It's not dead and they've said so like a couple months ago.

It will never be dead, Bedrock owns the land and they're not giving it up. There will be something big built there guaranteed.

[Satiricalivory]

So why did cityclub not break ground? Why announce a groundbreaking in December and just not do it... Really goddamn annoying how slow they are.

[401don]

It's not dead and they've said so like a couple months ago.

It will never be dead, Bedrock owns the land and they're not giving it up. There will be something big built there guaranteed.

We were discussing the project as currently announced, which includes a lot of office construction. Unless the market changes, which is highly unlikely for the next several years, that project is effectively dead. I stated they may build residential, as was suggested, at a later date.

[Richard]

I don't understand why Gilbert just won't go completely residential concerning the Monroe Block. There, as expected, would be ground floor retail with room for small office operations like an insurance company or tax preparations office. The office market is not going to ever return to pre-Covid days so I don't know why Gilbert is holding out.

People are returning to the office more and more so the future of office buildings is not that bleak,if it was investors would be dumping them at cut rate prices.

Its like with malls,this Christmas shopping season saw record numbers returning to the malls,mostly because of return policies,but they are still building new malls.

Rising interest rates curtails development and like posted the cost of materials is a major factor,it’s a difference in millions,but all of the posted projects had already gone through the funding stage long before everything going on happened.

The thread about the stalled apartment building renovation and some of these question the tax abatement and incentive packages and shows that policy needs to be looked at.

Usually the incentives are used as a bridge loan in order to secure funding on a building where the numbers would not make it feasible to complete,so they are offsetting the losses.

In the apartment project it was mentioned that company had already received those funds and have now placed it back in the market,so what happens if it is sold again,does the next buyer then qualify for the incentive package again or is the stance of this property has already received its allotment and that’s it,which would then make that property not very feasible.

Now in this thread it was mentioned that incentives were transferred to another property,o do not think that is possible because they are building specific and no matter what happens or how strong a company may be today,they can always cut back which would leave the property that the incentives were transferred from as a dead duck for future development.

It gives the illusion that you can buy a property for 1 million,collect 6 million in incentives,dump 1 million into the property then put it up for sale while the other 5 million disappeared.

Tax credits/capture do not come into play until the building is completed,so it would be the funds related to environmental,historical,etc ,they are already used up in the bridge loan that was used to purchase the property in the first place.

A pause as the market stabilizes is more plausible but those projects that were on the table for 3 or 4 years,most likely if they did not get off the ground then will definitely not get off the ground now.

But there is a pattern that needs to be explained in more detail to the taxpayers when it comes to incentives and how many of those already collected them and if they did.

In November Invest Detroit received 50 million,they are the funding bridge between investors and the city,so in the bigger picture we are not talking about a few million here and there.

Many states do allow the transfer of tax credits,they even allow the sale of them once they are allotted in order to raise cash,but if you collect them,sell them then walk away from the project,it’s the taxpayers that eat it,wash rinse and repeat on the same property many times over.

Senate bill 54 was passed in 2021 that changed the rules concerning the historic tax credits,keep in mind in the past it not only deferred property taxes but also corporate taxes.

My guess is it had an impact on developments announced before that date.

https://www.plantemoran.com/explore-...ric-tax-credit

In 2011 when the governor at that time canceled out the incentives companies like Bedrock did put a lot of projects on hold,but it took over 10 years for the state to figure it out.

Investors look for market stability,otherwise they just become speculative it’s the job for the people sitting at the top of the governmental food chain to provide that stability.

One policy change created that market instability that cost you 10 years of opportunity,it does not matter what the outcome is,it’s the having investors sitting on the fence for 10 years that hurt .

[401don]

Now in this thread it was mentioned that incentives were transferred to another property,o do not think that is possible because they are building specific and no matter what happens or how strong a company may be today,they can always cut back which would leave the property that the incentives were transferred from as a dead duck for future development.

It gives the illusion that you can buy a property for 1 million,collect 6 million in incentives,dump 1 million into the property then put it up for sale while the other 5 million disappeared.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/20...ts/7869295001/

[313WX]

Its like with malls,this Christmas shopping season saw record numbers returning to the malls,mostly because of return policies,but they are still building new malls.

Where exactly are new malls being built in the US?

I'm not talking about the generic power centers [[strip malls) with the obligatory Petco, Ross, T.J. Maxx, Michaels, Burlington, etc.

I mean the shopping centers akin to what Northland and Eastland were like...

[Richard]

Where exactly are new malls being built in the US?

I'm not talking about the generic power centers [[strip malls) with the obligatory Petco, Ross, T.J. Maxx, Michaels, Burlington, etc.

I mean the shopping centers akin to what Northland and Eastland were like...

Malls follow population shifts,Northland and Eastland and thousands of malls across the country were built in a time and place where they had a surrounding community of supporting wage earners,population shifting makes them obsolete.

Mall of America,the largest mall built In Minnesota and in the country is being replaced by another largest mall in America,in Miami.

The mall of America in Minnesota is now on the decline with the population shift and is frought with the same ills that brought Northland and Eastland down.

New malls are being built in the south as the disposable income moves to the south.

I have 2 malls within 3 miles by me a high end one and a mid range one,both are packed daily but the mid range one is starting the follow the decline of the surrounding community as it’s population shifts further out.

There are another 2 that have been closed for over 20 years,back in hair day they were cutting edge,but the demographics changed and the malls closed.

Here you do not see places like Ross,which I really like,or other discount national chains in the malls,they have standalone parcels,but you do see them in the advanced strip malls being built as they expand out to the fringes.

The Bain of strip malls are mostly chain eateries,shoe stores and cell phone stores,they should all be demolished anyways.

The majority of the major retailers need the floor space that a strip mall cannot offer.

I have a customer that had a burger place in the upscale mall,before COVID he was doing over $60,000 per month in revenue,you do not get those numbers selling $25 hamburgers in a mall unless you have the traffic.

American Dream Miami will be the largest shopping center in the US. The mall is expected to open by 2025. Construction is set to begin in late 2021 by Canadian development firm Triple Five Group

https://floridainsider.com/travel/th...south-florida/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Five_Group

Triple Five also owns mall of America,they would not be building in Miami if they thought malls were dead.

But if you look at how they are structured,they are also a tourist related enterprise,so they are not building malls strictly as a place to shop.

[313WX]

Malls follow population shifts,Northland and Eastland and thousands of malls across the country were built in a time and place where they had a surrounding community of supporting wage earners,population shifting makes them obsolete.

Mall of America,the largest mall built In Minnesota and in the country is being replaced by another largest mall in America,in Miami.

The mall of America in Minnesota is now on the decline with the population shift and is frought with the same ills that brought Northland and Eastland down.

New malls are being built in the south as the disposable income moves to the south.

I have 2 malls within 3 miles by me a high end one and a mid range one,both are packed daily but the mid range one is starting the follow the decline of the surrounding community as it’s population shifts further out.

There are another 2 that have been closed for over 20 years,back in hair day they were cutting edge,but the demographics changed and the malls closed.

Here you do not see places like Ross,which I really like,or other discount national chains in the malls,they have standalone parcels,but you do see them in the advanced strip malls being built as they expand out to the fringes.

The Bain of strip malls are mostly chain eateries,shoe stores and cell phone stores,they should all be demolished anyways.

The majority of the major retailers need the floor space that a strip mall cannot offer.

I have a customer that had a burger place in the upscale mall,before COVID he was doing over $60,000 per month in revenue,you do not get those numbers selling $25 hamburgers in a mall unless you have the traffic.

American Dream Miami will be the largest shopping center in the US. The mall is expected to open by 2025. Construction is set to begin in late 2021 by Canadian development firm Triple Five Group

https://floridainsider.com/travel/th...south-florida/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Five_Group

Triple Five also owns mall of America,they would not be building in Miami if they thought malls were dead.

But if you look at how they are structured,they are also a tourist related enterprise,so they are not building malls strictly as a place to shop.

That American Dream Mall hasn't actually broken ground yet, and with their still unfinished mall in NJ struggling, I'm skeptical the Florida mall ever will...

[Richard]

Retail real estate has made a comeback this year. People are shopping in stores again, and brands are opening new locations. In CBRE’s Q3 2021 Retail Report, vacancy rates were at a 10-year-low of 5.9%, and retail absorption was 36.7 million square feet, the third-highest in the past decade. It’s evident demand is on the rise.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brinsne...h=6bec6c343880


That was 2021 this year non online retail sales grew 8% over last year,which was the same amount of growth with online sales.

So either online sales is reaching a plateau or people are getting frustrated with it.

I have about $2000 worth of stuff I bought online that was blatantly sent out as the wrong items and misrepresented as something it was not,it is not worth my time to take a $50 item,call for a return authorization,repackage it,take it to the post office,pay for the return etc. The only things I buy online are last resort items or the limited number of suppliers that I trust and have been using for years,when it is not obtainable locally or only in a cheap imported form.


Keep in mind with the pandemic and house arrest in many states,it killed the momentum that projects need to start up,its going to take a bit to get back on track.

It can take up to 5 years to put a project together and arrange funding,COVID hit and it all went out the window.It put a lot of projects back to square one and in a tougher spot when it comes to funding and materials costs,there is no labor shortage when it comes to the construction aspect,not in the southern states anyways.

I watched a crew re roof a house completely in 4 hours,they had a crew of 15 on the roof,none of them spoke any English or had papers but they got it done and they would not be throwing up 300 unit apartment buildings and 2000 home new track crap subdivisions in a matter of months if there was a labor shortage.

If you are going to let 2 million jump the border in a year,you might as well put them to work so they can pay their own way and get some of these projects done.

[Jimaz]

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[ShadowSoarer]

This is an update for the City Club Apartments Midtown as of Dec. 31st. There was an article claiming that they would breakground in Dec, but there was no equipment on site. The Mid doesn't looks like it has started and same with Edmund Place. Hopefully in 2023 some of these projects either move faster or move forward [[like shovels in the ground).

[Lowell]

There is an excellent summary of ongoing and upcoming[?] downtown building projects by JC Reindl in today's Free Press.

Mainly Ilitchville/District Detroit projects are featured. One surprise appears at the very end--plans for restoring the Moose Lodge.

"2115 Cass: Adaptive reuse of the former Moose Lodge building as a business incubator for the Detroit Center for Innovation, 83,000 square feet of office space, construction could start first quarter 2025."

[stasu1213]

This is an update for the City Club Apartments Midtown as of Dec. 31st. There was an article claiming that they would breakground in Dec, but there was no equipment on site. The Mid doesn't looks like it has started and same with Edmund Place. Hopefully in 2023 some of these projects either move faster or move forward [[like shovels in the ground).

Target should be allowed to start construction on it's building without the groundbreaking for Cityclub. This same thing had happened to Rivertown Market. Rivertown Market was to be built with condos on top. The condo idea had stalled and Meijer proceeded to build Rivertown Market. Target should adopt that idea

[masterblaster]

Looks like work [[maybe!) has started on this 4-story mixed-use affordable housing project that will bring 58 apartments, 1,100 sq feet commercial space, and a small park to Brush Park.

https://detroitmi.gov/sites/detroitm...f%20Report.pdf

There is a bunch of construction equipment at Brush and Winder, and grading work has been completed, but there is no news on it anywhere!

[stasu1213]

This is an update for the City Club Apartments Midtown as of Dec. 31st. There was an article claiming that they would breakground in Dec, but there was no equipment on site. The Mid doesn't looks like it has started and same with Edmund Place. Hopefully in 2023 some of these projects either move faster or move forward [[like shovels in the ground).

For this reason I said Target should had went along and build without waiting on Cityclub

[K-slice]

For this reason I said Target should had went along and build without waiting on Cityclub

No one wants a singe story target on Woodward, give it a rest. If City Club's plans fail, then I'd rather see nothing go there for the time being rather than a single story retail building.