Post mortem for the detroit united artists

[detroitbob]

So a post mortem for the United Artists Detroit if you will...
Lets go back to 1975...thanks to AAA Michigan the corporate entity that owned the whole building, theatre and all contents and occupied the entire office building prior to 1975. They wanted the place unusable and would have preferred the entire building and theatre demolished but didn't want to pay for it. They had already decided to move to Dearborn, and extracted all the cash and value out of the building. As John Lauter previously stated: 'I thought long about this. Everything of value left the theatre at a time when it was still good and usable. It would have turned to moist moldy garbage if left in place."
In addition the design prohibited any viable use on stage more than movie screen depth due to the turn of Clifford Street to the north at Middle St. The theater WAS NEVER used for any stage presentations except for front of curtain bows. John Lauter and I saw the building intact when the organ was removed and helped on that project and again when the DSO recorded in the building. Starting in 1979, the Detroit Symphony Orchestra used the as a recording studio until 1983, when they said they couldn't take the lack of heat, rain falling through the ceiling or lack of electricity in the building. Electrical work lights strung through out and porta potties and bottled water equated to creature comforts.
***NOTE***This was LONG BEFORE Ilitch purchased the building and because the prior interests tied the title up in court battle after court battle it took years for the clear title to be awarded...I am not a blanket apologist for Olympia Inc but I wouldn't have put a cent into the building without a clear title.***REMEMBER Downtown and Detroit were very different between 1975 and 2010 . I am amazed the office building is still going to be converted to apartments and at least the Bagley theatre lobby and rotunda room apparently will be saved as they are under the east end office structure.
I appreciate the burning desire for preservation...I really do. But most of the negative comments about this demolition are from people that are not in Detroit, or far to young to have experienced actually walking in to one of these theaters when they were operational prior to closing. Rejoice in what has been saved and remember folks like Chuck Forbes, Marion and Mile Ilitch and Dr. David DiChiera who created the theater district by their efforts.

[Richard]

Nobody here lived in or was in Berlin during the 5 years of bombing that leveled 80% of the city either,but yet here it is today restored and rebuilt just like many other cities across Europe.

It is interesting history and thank you for filling in the blanks,but excuses are just that,in the here and now it still could have been rebuilt,but just like with Belle isle people have a tendency to look for more reasons to give up on things based on today then reasons to preserve what is left for future generations,it is short sited to say,I got to see it so future generations do not need to.

The ones that have yet to be born yet have not been there either but yet people have already decided what they will allow them to see and experience.

This whole attitude of someone does not live there or been their does not have a clue is typical,the metrics of a city does not change accordingly and many people that did live there left .

Over 1 million residents were given a reason to leave,so keep repeating the past mistakes while justifying them,because it seemed to work so well in the past.

Detroit as a city is special today because of its past,keep looking for reasons to destroy that and what does Detroit have to offer that any other city cannot provide?

It is not a city on an island capable of shutting off the rest of the country,there are 310 other large cities in the country.

If memories are all you have to offer then that age group that retains them is fading fast,what are you leaving for the next generation?

[masterblaster]

ANOTHER EXCELLENT POINT RICHARD:

"Detroit as a city is special today because of its past, keep looking for reasons to destroy that and what does Detroit have to offer that any other city cannot provide?"

[EastsideAl]

"most of the negative comments about this demolition are from people that are not in Detroit, or far to young to have experienced actually walking in to one of these theaters when they were operational prior to closing."

Well, I am not either of these things, and I say this is nothing less than an act of civic vandalism. Just a bit worse than the needless destruction of other less distinguished downtown theaters like the Madison or the Adams, and at least as bad as the assholes who hollowed out the Michigan and left its cadaver there for folks to park in. Saying that "hey, at least someone saved something" is pretty cold comfort given that our supposed reviving downtown is still losing irreplaceable historic structures to neglect, greed, and the almighty buck of surface parking lot blight.

You can talk about all of the failures at several historical points here, and all of the people responsible, but the fact remains that the final irreversible act of destruction happened under an Ilitch empire built on willful neglect, civic vandalism, and extortion of public money for their personal profit. As I said on the other thread, in a just place they and everyone else involved here would be wiping the spit of outraged citizens off of their faces on the way to be called to account for their [[in)actions.

[56packman]

As Bob has taken the time to write this well thought post I thought I’d weigh in with some hard facts about the movie theatre business. Bob and I have worked in preservation and have something of a track record in this.
Theatres like the United Artists were built for one reason-to make money for investors. In the 1920’s every man, woman, and child went to the movie theatre 2.3 times a week. In the major cities they experienced an orchestra, the pipe organ, the last remnants of vaudeville, a “star”- name act performer, short [[film) subjects, a newsreel, and the feature movie. That style of presentation ended in the late 1930’s.
Theatres like the UA featured exotic architecture appropriated from around the world, from times past. Audiences of the 1920’s wouldn’t have gone to a plain, barren room like cinema multiplexes or modern college auditoria-the ornate styles theatre owners indulged their audiences with were considered “every man’s palace”. They might live in a very humble home, apartment, or room, but for a reasonable price they dwelled in palatial surroundings for two hours of escapist entertainment. This fantasy architecture is also what drives our current strong feelings of preservation and love.
Theatres sprouted up downtown in a very short period of time. During the depths of the depression the movie business was doing so well that smaller movie theatres were built in the city’s neighborhoods. During the WWII years movie attendance peaked. In 1948 a landmark case was taken to the US Supreme Court, the UDT/Paramount case. This charged that the practice [[then) of the major movie studios ownership of the theatre chains was a monopoly. The court agreed, and the studios were forced to sell their interest in the theatres. A few years later television hit the magical price tipping point and Americans bought millions of sets for the first time. By 1950 it was clear-the US had too many movie theatres. They started closing at an ever-increasing rate. In major cities the land underneath them became very valuable. Theatres were vulnerable because one building had a large footprint. Developers could buy a theatre, have it demolished and have the entire footprint for their new project in one purchase, instead of assembling parcels at ever-greater costs. New York lost the Roxy-the ultimate movie palace in 1960, the Paramount in 1964, and the Capitol in 1968.
The United Artists was able to keep audiences coming in the 50’s and 60’s by featuring the wide screen epic films Hollywood produced to fight television. A movie experience that couldn’t be duplicated at home on the 12” screens in living rooms. The abandonment of downtown after the 1967 riots changed everything in the city, and everything downtown. The UA held on until 1972, but there was no more night life in the city. After 5:00 downtown was deserted. As Bob points out, the UA became a pawn for AAA, then other parties, who tied up any potential use of the building when it was most able to be reused or adapted. THAT was the time for feeling, indignation and action. But most people were too busy moving to Livonia, Troy, Warren, Garden City and on the odd chance they went to the movies they went to the shoebox cinema plex and didn’t think a thing of it.
Other persons and companies speculated on the structure, but had little drive or cash to be in the theatre business. The merry-go-round broke down, in slow motion and very few noticed. Downtown was deserted for decades, the folks with money electing to invest or spend it elsewhere.
It’s time for the UA to go now, it’s chances for saving long over.
We need to direct this preservationist fervor to supporting the theatres that DID survive.
Fox
Fisher
State [[known as the Fillmore this week)
Music Hall
Opera House
Redford Theatre
Senate Theatre

covid has dealt many live theatres a hard blow. What these places all need are ticket sales.
That how you can preserve a historic Theatre.

[Richard]

It takes more then that,an understanding that just because something today is not up to par,it will never be in the future,it takes citizens getting involved to implement mothballing standards for historical properties,it takes a city wanting to preserve the past for future generations.

We have a tendency to think in small terms where cities have to look 10-20-50 years into the future,the problem is with politics it is only a 4 year cycle but there are residents that will be there 60 70 + years,they are the ones that have to take the lead.

I have a friend in the UK,retired but was pulled out of retirement in order to handle air extraction systems for a theater group that was building 25 screen multiplex theaters all across Europe,they would not have done that if it did not work.

When it comes to historical theaters they are not just limited to showing movies.

Our local historical theater,which does not even begin to compare to Detroits historical theatres,was restored by volunteers and a grant from the city,just as the historical train station was,once again they cannot even be compared to the grandeur of Detroits buildings,but anything is possible when you get the community involved.

Hudson’s had to go in that moment in time,all these years later was that the right decision?

Detroit is not like a lot of cities,just because it hit a rough patch it does not meen that is the way it will be in the future.

I remember when downtown Minneapolis looked a heck of a lot worse then Detroit and you could buy buildings and apartment buildings for $1,you cannot anymore.

[56packman]

Richard-I’ve been active in saving a few theatres, I know the business, I know the process. What you speak of, this subsidized mothballing of commercial structures flies in the face of corporate and personal investment America. It was an accepted practice for people to buy properties in the city, let them sit and rot in order to gain tax advantages. The Theatre that is now the Detroit Opera House was just such a property, owned by a man from Baltimore who wasn’t even aware he owned it. In the case of the UA, there was no interested party. No non-profit theater group. No musical organization. No for-profit company saw it as an opportunity to present plays, films, jazz, rock, country, pop, rap or any other form of music. We’ve actually preserved more theatres in Detroit than most cities-mostly because the land underneath them was almost worthless for decades. Repeating what I said above, the time to care about the UA was in the late 70’s-early 80’s, and no one cared.

[Richard]

That’s like saying there is no point in buying a rusty 1932 Packard twin six convertible because the time to buy it would have been in the 1950s when it was cheap

I also know that when it comes to museums and movie palaces they compete for a small pool of funds,which creates a dog eat dog atmosphere when it comes to saving these places,they do not like the competition.

The one thing that a majority of the wealthy like is tax write offs,and supporting the arts is at the top of the list.

The UA is done,it’s not the Detroit of the 70s anymore so what are people going to do in order to stop repeating the mistakes of the past?

You cannot just save a theater and open the doors expecting people to flood in,the city has to have protections and rules in place before one can even save it and there needs a plan moving forward.

No disrespect but the general consensus seems to be that the city of Detroit is this anomaly like no other city in the world,it is not experiencing or has experienced nothing that other cities have across the world,there is a wealth of experience out there of things that have proven to work and things that have proven not to work,it is not the first rodeo.

Entire cities were rebuilt as they were after wars,it takes the will of the people and it takes people to educate and draw that support moving forward.

[Dumpling]

Nice posts in this thread. Thank you to all the theater preservationists for their posts and work on theaters!

As Richard noted, there has been a lot of competition in movie screening markets. Before online viewing really took hold, one result of that is that in addition to theaters remaining standing because property values in Detroit were low, Detroit was also the place where many 'low life' movies ranging from R to XXX were screened, the NOT Walt Disney movies, meaning the theaters remained as businesses in use, rather than standing vacant.

There was some market for these, both within Detroit and in the suburbs. In Royal Oak the theater most likely to screen them was the dearly departed Main Theater. Since there were two other theaters in downtown Royal Oak also struggling to get by during the heyday of the mall multiplexes, the less family friendly nature of the Main Theater movies contributed to a smaller supporter base over the long term. This as well as escalating property values in Royal Oak are factors in its recent demise.

Maybe the time to have been concerned about the Main was when it was showing the XX movies but that was a tough ask at that time.

[expatriate]

Say what you will about the Ilitch organization, but if it hadn't decided to step in and move operations downtown the Fox would be history as well. I think it is fare to say that it was one of the first steps in what was to become a renewal of downtown. The history of the business as mentioned above was right on and I suspect that giant TVs and streaming of new releases will do the same thing to the multiplexes in short order. We are lucky that at least a few of these movie palaces have survived and many cities have done likewise by reprogramming them. The real culprit in all of this is our car-centric society and suburban sprawl. Look how many landmarks have been demolished just for additional parking lots. Raising old City Hall was just a harbinger of what was to come.

[Gistok]

Well I'm late to the party... been gone for a few weeks... glad I wasn't around when they started the demo work... I would have been apoplectic... at least.

There were 3 UA flagship theatres that C. Howard Crane designed for the United Artists chain in 1927-28. The largest was the 2200 seat LA UA, the 2070 seat Detroit UA, and the 1700 seat Chicago UA. Mary Pickford, Douglas Fairbanks and Charlie Chaplin personally approved the designs for the 3 Spanish Gothic & Art Deco blended movie palaces [they were similar, but still different]. Ironically C. Howard Crane had his offices in the Michigan Building next door when he designed the Detroit UA Building and Theatre [which opened Dec. 3, 1928].

The Chicago UA was pounded to rubble circa 1990. The Detroit UA became a ruin under Ilitch ownership, and the LA UA was a church for about 1/2 a century and was recently gloriously restored along with its' attached office building into a Hotel & Entertainment space.

No color photos of the Detroit UA are known to exist, but here is a color photo of the late Chicago UA, and the restored LA UA...

[Wesley Mouch]

Say what you will about the Ilitch organization, but if it hadn't decided to step in and move operations downtown the Fox would be history as well. I think it is fare to say that it was one of the first steps in what was to become a renewal of downtown. ...snip...

History would have been different, but I think the Fox Theatre would have been restored if Ilitch hadn't bought into downtown investment. Chuck Forbes just passed away. He seduced Ilitch, and then was coerced into selling to Ilitch by Mayor Young. Forbes filed suit, and settled I believe.

But if Ilitch hadn't stepped up, Forbes [[who was an even earlier downtown pioneer) would probably have kept the theatre from the wrecking ball.

But it would have been a different history. Forbes had money and solid investors [[from his time at Fords in dealer placement), but nowhere near to the depth of Mr. I. We wouldn't have had Little Caesars, but Forbes successfully put City offices in the Colony and City clubs, and proved to be adept at preserving big buildings. And its was Forbes who first brought Ray Shepardson, the nationally famous [[and notorious) historic theatre preservationist to Detroit. Shepardson would likely have still restored the theatre.

A corporate player like Mr. I as the savior of a historic theatre is the outlier. Non-profits like MOT are the usual suspects. But it would likely have happened, IMO.

But it would have been very different. And the revitalization of our downtown would have been very different too.

[Gistok]

^ Thanks for the insightful story Wesley Mouch... what you say is true.

The Fox Theatre was not in bad shape... just worn out from 60 years of wear and tear [[and all that smoking caused the Fox ornate plasterwork to look very dull). I went to an organ concert at the Fox in 1985, while Forbes still owned it. The magnificent 4/36 Wurlitzer organ was working still, and famed movie palace organist Gaylord Nelson put on a stunning show, and I was awestruck by the fading beauty of the Fox.

Granted Forbes didn't have the deep pockets of the Ilitches, and would have had the theatre restored piecemeal, like he did the State/Fillmore. However the Wayne County Stadium Authority did pay Forbes $14 million for his parcels in the Stadia district for Ford Field and Comerica Park land. And he used a lot of that in fixing up many of his other historic structures, so it ended up working out well that he sold to the Ilitches.

But the name associated to the Ilitch family back in 1988 when the Fox reopened was "Historic Preservationists"... but that name soon was tossed into the dustbin of history. They have still not finished their restoration of the Detroit Life Building behind the Fox... and that restoration has progressed piecemeal for about 20 years. And then there are the still unrestored Blenheim apartments, Moose Lodge, Henry Street Apartment Row... etc. etc.

[Wesley Mouch]

^ Thanks for the insightful story Wesley Mouch... what you say is true.
...snip...
But the name associated to the Ilitch family back in 1988 when the Fox reopened was "Historic Preservationists"... but that name soon was tossed into the dustbin of history. ...snip...

I think the Ilitch family did have general sympathy for restoring a cool theatre. They are in the entertainment business after all. But there's been no evidence that they came to the restoration because they were 'Historic Preservationists'. They were astute business people with an appreciation of a fine building that was ready to be a productive asset to their family business.

[Gistok]

While on a fruitless search for a color photograph of the Detroit United Artists Theatre, I did come across a color photo from the Manning Brothers... of the [1928-61] old Fisher Theatre in its' Mayan/Aztec decor. I'm not sure if this was a color Auto-chrome photograph taken shortly before the 3,000 seat Fisher opened up in 1928, or if it was just a colorized image. But the old Fisher was truly one of a kind, before it was gutted in 1961 for the modern smaller shell, a 2,089 seat brass and teak dated theatre that survives today.

From David Naylor's American Picture Palaces book... "The new Fisher is more "dated" in appearance than the old Fisher would be today, had it survived. Mayanesque theatres were never in great supply, and on a massive scale, they number only one, the Fisher."

Fisher Organ 4/34 Wurlitzer one of a kind organ... image is modern, taken at its' current location at the Senate Theatre in Detroit.

[Burnsie]

I'm not sure if this was a color Auto-chrome photograph taken shortly before the 3,000 seat Fisher opened up in 1928, or if it was just a colorized image.

Very cool photo! I'm thinking it was colorized, notice how monochrome the guy standing in the left foreground is.

Some further UA recap details: AAA's staff left in April 1974. Montreal-based Clifton Management Co., which had bought the David Whitney Building in 1975, bought the UA from AAA in June 1977. Whitney Management Corp. leased it to Jay Glover--long on ideas but short on money--by Dec. 1977.

2/13/1975 ad for the raping of the theatre, everything from chandeliers to the brass rope stanchions:

[expatriate]

Sad to lose these pieces of history, but we should at least be grateful that some parts are salvaged to be prized by their buyers or reused in other ways. So often the time is not taken to save anything and these beautiful artifacts are simply carted off to landfill as was done with Penn Station.

[56packman]

Looking back, the 1975 UA auction was the best possible thing for the treasures of that theatre. They all went to new, good homes while they still were perfectly intact. Had they been left in the theatre they would have been stolen, vandalized, and reduced to moist mush like every other part of the building.