Smaller cities losing airlines

[Richard]

The smaller regional airlines are starting to pull service from the smaller cities.

Toledo is losing its regional base,so their next option will be to drive to Detroit in order to catch a flight,is that the only option ? Driving ? Any rail service or most likely a shuttle bus will be established?

[jcole]

Driving is the option; I imagine there is a Greyhound or some other bus that will serve but doubtful it would be a shuttle. There's a train station there but no connector to Detroit and people drive there to catch the train bound for NY.

The smaller regional airlines are starting to pull service from the smaller cities.

Toledo is losing its regional base,so their next option will be to drive to Detroit in order to catch a flight,is that the only option ? Driving ? Any rail service or most likely a shuttle bus will be established?

[Richard]

The American Eagle alone shows a $15.4 million annual revenue,that is a big loss.

Game changer for Detroit city airport if they can pick that up.

That does not even count the other ones.

[MikeM]

Small cities have had a history of losing service ever since Carter DEREGULATED the airline industry. Many have gained it back once a more nimble operator filled the gap. Since we prioritize infrastructure for autos, the drive from Toledo to DTW is shorter than from some of Detroit's suburbs to DTW. Not worried.

[Richard]

Pan-Am was the smart one,they secured the rights to the international flight paths,so even though they have not flown a bird in a decade,they still make millions.

[MikeM]

Pan Am is not collecting millions from not flying international flights.

This thread should probably be moved since it's not Detroit related.

[oladub]

Amtrak once cancelled my tickets from Chicago to Detroit but instead put us on a train from Chicago and disembarking in Toledo. In Toledo, 18 of us were loaded into taxis and taken to Detroit. The travel time was not much different. However, without as many flights, places like Toledo are going to be disenfranchised like the prairie towns where trains did not make a stop. There are also notes of a collapsing empire.

[Richard]

So a regional service shutting down in Toledo that will transfer millions In anual revenue to Detroit,is not Detroit related ?

So after you got your 2c in the thread should be shut down ? Maybe another cup of coffee is in order. Mike?

[Richard]

Amtrak once cancelled my tickets from Chicago to Detroit but instead put us on a train from Chicago and disembarking in Toledo. In Toledo, 18 of us were loaded into taxis and taken to Detroit. The travel time was not much different. However, without as many flights, places like Toledo are going to be disenfranchised like the prairie towns where trains did not make a stop. There are also notes of a collapsing empire.

They have a population of 270,000 + ,I remember when grey
hound used to stop at every small town on the route.

They had to be doing something if American alone was generating the 15 mil,the biggest issue now is lack of pilots who are mostly boomers retiring out,I know a few that fly internationally and most of their flights have switched from direct to transfers.

Even with rail though the UK canceled out all of the small villages that they used to serve but yet by me in Florida Virgin ran high speed up the east coast connecting Miami,Orlando Tampa and Jacksonville as the end goal with the small beach town stops in-between so some are stepping back while others are moving forward.

I thought they were discussing HS rail connection from Toledo to Detroit in the past?

Most of the countries with viable rail systems are also countries where a majority of the population lives on 1/4 of the available land so high density.

We just have a lot of ground to cover in between cities.

Amtrak is the same way for us,if I want to catch it to go up the east coast we have to take a bus from the station to Orlando,2 hour drive.

I cannot recall where the transfer was when I took it from Florida to Minneapolis,it was Orlando to Chicago with 6 hour layover then to Washington DC 8 hour layover then to Minneapolis but there was a stop where they said it was a transfer to Detroit cannot remember where or what all was involved in that.

[MikeM]

By a long, long stretch is this Detroit related. Millions in annual revenue to Detroit? Hardly. Looks like more of an opportunity for the king of 2c to make a space to bloviate. More exercise and less sitting, Richard.

[Richard]

By a long, long stretch is this Detroit related. Millions in annual revenue to Detroit? Hardly. Looks like more of an opportunity for the king of 2c to make a space to bloviate. More exercise and less sitting, Richard.

And people like you are the reason why Detroit got to where it was,real proud of yourself ?

[renf]

When will there be a successful movement to reestablish local train service in the US? Most European countries offer such service. For
trips of about 300 miles or less, in terms of time, trains are competitive
with planes. Furthermore they do less damage to the environment and
you can easily work on a train while you travel if you have a laptop.
Parts of nothern Michigan are becoming a destination point for
prosperous retirees who have the funds to buy attractive property there.
But many of those people will soon be to elderly to comfortably drive to
northern Michigan from Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland or other places.
Train service to the Traverse City area and Mackinac City would be a
boost to the economy of those places.

[Gistok]

And people like you are the reason why Detroit got to where it was,real proud of yourself ?

Nice use of the Non Sequitor Fallacy on Mikem there Richard...

[Meddle]

What [if anything] is Willow Run doing now?

Shuttle commuter lines and maybe even helicopter services into there.

That seems like a viable option. Closer to A2, US23 and 275. Still close to 94 and rail lines.

[Richard]

they got 15 mil to redo the runways and appear to be mostly cargo but offer other services,Amazon setting up in the old Sliver-dome location,maybe they are going to hub there.

They keep pushing it as a part of the whole Metropolis agenda for when the GHB is finished and they can completely bypass COD as a player in any form of logistics and the revenue it is currently creating as a result of.

That’s what I was thinking,it might be an opportunity for somebody local to do a shuttle service,it may be just an hour drive but then somebody has to park their car when they are gone etc.

It could be expanded into a Weekend in Detroit package deal that offers pick up in Toledo and brought to the hotel in Detroit while offering a safe structured tour to all of the local attractions.

There is a base of opportunity with an additional 200,000 plus to draw from.

But I am more of a when one door closes,another opens when it comes to potential opportunity.

I am thinking that they were taking a regional flight in Toledo to Detroit international and that was the point A to B.

But there was a company that was talking about flying out of Detroit City airport with these electric airplanes as a local flight option.

They say what the revenue is annually but hard to find out the specifics as to daily passenger numbers etc.

[Richard]

Nice use of the Non Sequitor Fallacy on Mikem there Richard...

I am thinking your parents sent you to a lot of costume parties dressed as a Piñata when you were young.

[MikeM]

Willow Run would need a terminal facility.

[401don]

This really is a thread about nothing. Yes it's too bad Toledo is losing a regional carrier but, as was said, Metro Airport is a 40 minute drive [[traffic free compared to those who have to cross Metro Detroit), much shorter than many Detroit suburbs travel to their own airport so what's the big deal?

[Richard]

You do not understand it because you are focused on the drive as an individual.

Are you able to zoom out and realize the bigger picture?

If one airline alone was generating $15 million and there was at least 3 there,what happens to that money potential?

Let alone the jobs and tax base it was generating for Toledo let alone the money their taxpayers have to continue to pay for the upgrades to that airport in the first place.

You must be smarter then the major airlines that were servicing Toledo because all they had to do is think like you and say - why invest millions when all they have to do is drive to Detroit in less time it takes for a Detroiter to drive across town?

They saw a need and filled it for profit in the past.

That void has to be still filled and it is not based on what you can do individually because American Airlines was not charging $15 million per ride so it is a little bit bigger then you as an individual.

Somebody will see the opportunity and capitalize on it,but it will not be the city or one standing there saying,what’s the big deal?

You do not think it will be a revenue and job loss to Detroit international and the region if somebody takes them to another international airport in another city?

If it was no big deal the smaller cities would not be spending millions in order to attract regional carriers in the first place.

You guys are a trip,on one hand you destroy the country to save the planet while on the other you say what’s the big deal,100s can individually jump in their cars,all going to the exact same place because it will take them the same time as it would to drive across the city.

[Gistok]

Here is a map showing the reality of the region. Toledo is only 40 minutes from Detroit. All the other cities are much farther than that. If Toledo wants to recaputure the air traffic lost to DTW, then it is out of our hands. If other locations want to take away Toledo's reason for coming to DTW, then they better be a damn good airline hub. Chicago is the only other hub city... Cleveland lost its' hub status quite some time ago. And none of the other cities on this map are hub carrier cities.

Also, we are not the Detroit/Wayne County Airport Authority, nor the Detroit Convention/Visitors Bureau. Your comments here make you sound as though you are talking to one of them, rather than to just a lowly online messsage board. We're not policy makers.

[Richard]

Here is a map showing the reality of the region. Toledo is only 40 minutes from Detroit. All the other cities are much farther than that. If Toledo wants to recaputure the air traffic lost to DTW, then it is out of our hands. If other locations want to take away Toledo's reason for coming to DTW, then they better be a damn good airline hub. Chicago is the only other hub city... Cleveland lost its' hub status quite some time ago. And none of the other cities on this map are hub carrier cities.

Also, we are not the Detroit/Wayne County Airport Authority, nor the Detroit Convention/Visitors Bureau. Your comments here make you sound as though you are talking to one of them, rather than to just a lowly online messsage board. We're not policy makers.

Do you ever listen to yourself ?

You are not the director of marketing for GMs renaissance center,but yet you felt the need to chime in there,or the DIA or mass transit in the city,or the theater or even the stupid bridge to nowhere.

By your own admission you do not live in the city of Detroit and have no say over what happens there or can influence what happens there - your words

But yet you chime in and feel you are the boss over everybody and what they say.

This thread is a threat to you because your mentality has kept entrepreneurs and free thought smashed under your control in the big cities for generations,then those same cities get up in front of the cameras and say we need to spend millions to attract talent to the city.

Like everybody but you in the city is stupid.

In Florida service to small communities like everywhere else was terminated,so you know what people that live in Miami do when they want their parents to visit?

They pay $25 and those parents load up in 15 passenger vans for the 200 mile trip.

Thats $750 round trip for the provider,it does not matter if it is 40 miles or 200 - would you drive to Toledo and back,for as you guys are quick to point out no traffic an easy trip,for $750
,beats minimum wage.

Uneducated immigrants can figure out what your education could not provide.

Do not really care what you personally think,if somebody locally sees the opportunity and takes advantage of it,it becomes and additional revenue source and employment opportunity for somebody in the city.

This forum and the discussions within it are not here for your sole pleasure I am not sure where you get off thinking it is otherwise.

Stick to your own little tiny box of a comfort zone,your conditioning has taught to stay within its confines rendering you incapable of thinking outside of it.

That is not my problem it is yours.

If Toledo wants to recaputure the air traffic lost to DTW, then it is out of our hands.

What does that even mean ? How about capturing what they are losing instead of taking the stance of - screw em they have no other choice but to drive to Detroit.

Thats like saying screw em,there are plenty of other cities for them to visit other then Detroit.

They just left at the minimum of $15 million on the table up for grabs and the best you can come up with is reasons for everybody else to grab it but the city that could use it the most.

Like I said before - lead,follow or get out of the way there are others that deserve opportunity regardless of how much you personally like to go out of your way to deny people of that .

Did you know Einstein was denied a job teaching young kids math in his early days?

That is what your mindset does,spend all of your energy keeping people down.

If you were the educator that you say you are,you would be encouraging people to think and act to the best of their abilities and to strive to reach beyond.

But yet here you are looking for reasons for others not to and indicative of why people are banging their heads against the wall trying to get a simple rail transit plan passed.

It is irrelevant what you personally think about it,if one person picks up on it and turns it into an opportunity that makes it a better life for them and theirs and the city,I would call it mission accomplished.

Because that would be one less person that is bound by your chains of oppression.

[Gistok]

Sorry, made it as far as the first paragraph... apparently you're not that good with maps....

[Dumpling]

Do you ever listen to yourself ?

You are not the director of marketing for GMs renaissance center,but yet you felt the need to chime in there,or the DIA or mass transit in the city,or the theater or even the stupid bridge to nowhere.

By your own admission you do not live in the city of Detroit and have no say over what happens there or can influence what happens there - your words

In all honesty I'm not sure if you are listening to yourself either.

There was an ad hominem remark you made upthread. This remark is of the same tone. Besides that, it is not and should not be a requirement for any poster to be in some position or title to weigh in on a thread. If only the actual Director of Marketing for the GM Renaissance Center AND Richard could weigh in on a thread about the Ren Cen, then that thread would be something totally different than the open forum that is DetroitYES. Although a Director of Marketing would contribute valuable insights and expertise if they were posting for sure, thousands of potential other insights and angles would be left out.

I do actually live in the City of Detroit proper. To many residents of Detroit proper it feels as though they have less influence in many areas than various residents living in metro Detroit outside of the actual city. For example, in decades past, winning the mayoral race within the City of Detroit required about $12 million in campaign funds per race. Media mentions were extremely helpful as well. Typically only the top two or three candidates would get much coverage. These serious mayoral contenders would hold a majority of their fundraisers and meet-and-greets in the suburbs. Once the mayor has won they will meet with the bondholders. Once that happens the struggle for resources for running the city continues.

I was an employee of DWSD at the time of the bankruptcy of the City of Detroit. Though there was a faction of outspoken employees who did not vote in favor of the bankruptcy, there was not an active insight among employees as an aggregate, ahead of the bankruptcy, that we would be losing far more than $12 million in the bankruptcy. The general sense employees had at the time was that the 7% guaranteed annuity was secure and deserved. This went right along with a sense that city employees also deserved the condition to live in communities other than the City of Detroit proper.

If Richard can weigh in with every thought for every thread, why limit the rest of us from posting similarly, excepting the Director of Marketing for the GM Renaissance Center and other dignitaries? It's a good principle to limit posts to the stated subject of the thread though. So this will hopefully be my last post on this thread because I don't know much about the dynamics of small city airport closings and openings and those who do should be the ones posting here.

[renf]

I recall flying into and out of Willow Run on commercial flights. Is that
terminal gone? Amtrak promoters foresee up to 10 trips a day from
Motown to the Windy City and at least one trip a day from Chicago to
Toronto. With just a little bit on new track work, Amtrak could stop
at both Willow Run and Metro.

[401don]

I recall flying into and out of Willow Run on commercial flights. Is that
terminal gone? Amtrak promoters foresee up to 10 trips a day from
Motown to the Windy City and at least one trip a day from Chicago to
Toronto. With just a little bit on new track work, Amrak could stop
at both Willow Run and Metro.

That's always the trade-off with trains - how many stops to make. More stops means more passengers picked up and less who want to board because of all the stops.