Renaissance Center at a Crossroads?

**detroitpride313** · June-23-22, 08:27 AM

Interesting article that I read today. Several ideas were suggested to reinvigorate the RenCen such as converting some towers to residential. Thoughts?

https://www.freep.com/story/money/20...rs/7608005001/

**southen** · June-23-22, 08:48 AM

I didn't read the article due to the paywall but I think the isolation of the center, in addition to the confusing layout, plays a big part. If GM were to finally develop the lots it owns on the riverfront and create a true mixed use district you might see more people willing to lease space or live in the building. In a way it is like a corporate District Detroit right now. One big building surrounded by parking with little to offer anyone not going to the place with a purpose.

**K-slice** · June-23-22, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by southen

If GM were to finally develop the lots it owns on the riverfront and create a true mixed use district you might see more people willing to lease space or live in the building. In a way it is like a corporate District Detroit right now. One big building surrounded by parking with little to offer anyone not going to the place with a purpose.

Bingo, the Ren Cen has one side that can actually connect to other development and they squander it with giant parking garages and fenced in surface lots. Acres and acres of prime riverfront real estate which should be full of hotels, apartments, condos, and retail are barren parking lots.

**mikeg19** · June-23-22, 10:32 AM

I'd wonder if you could cram all of the office space/hotel into the central tower and the 500/600 towers to the east and turn the 4-39 story towers into residential. GM doesn't [[won't) say occupancy of the towers in the article so it's hard to tell what really makes sense. Rosetti comments in the article they have composed numerous design scenarios for the towers and potential uses [[though he references those are confidential), so GM has obviously been examining increasing the usage of these buildings.

It will probably be a few years post pandemic before GM has a grasp on how many workers they have/foresee at the Ren Cen and make a decision on how best to proceed on site. I wonder if DG still has any interest in purchasing it or if the East Riverfront rumored developments are still in play. If GM decided to downsize in the towers or sell to DG it could be a major departure from the current programming.

**Burnsie** · June-23-22, 10:57 AM

I remember reading in 1996 how the old GM building wasn't big enough for all of GM's offices. I bet there would be plenty of room now. Maybe even enough space for both GM and the state offices, which have also downsized.

**stasu1213** · June-23-22, 05:26 PM

GM, unlike Gilbert and Bedrock, is so disconnected to the rest of the downtown community that it isolated itself into a pickle barrel. GM only think of itself as an office building only and really doesn't care about making its building more visitor friendly by having more retail inside its Winter Garden that would attract Riverwalk participants inside. Management, whom probably wasn't born and raised in Detroit nor metro Detroit, don't see the importance in connecting the RenCen to the rest of downtown Detroit and its development

**softailrider** · June-23-22, 08:13 PM

I never liked going to that place. Actually, I never liked anything about it. I would almost rather have a root canal then go in there.

**Henry Whalley** · June-23-22, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

I never liked going to that place. Actually, I never liked anything about it. I would almost rather have a root canal then go in there.

Ditto. Is the architectural style considered post-modern? Or ante-vomit?

**DTWflyer** · June-23-22, 09:46 PM

I can't read the full article since its behind a paywall, but I am not surprised by the title of the article.

The Ren Cen was an albatross even before the pandemic but the current post-pandemic era really has a big question mark on what the future of the place will be.

I worked for a number of years in the Ren Cen on and off over 15 years from 2005 until 2020. I had seen it ebb and flow.
I liked being downtown, but like said it was so disconnected from the rest of downtown. The best part was being able to go take a walk at lunch or during a break along the Riverfront. Or, often times, I would go change after work and go for a run or bike ride on the Riverfront. By the time I'd be done it would be past rush hour and I could get home early.

The biggest challenge is that for the most part, many of the jobs that GM and others had in the Ren Cen are some of the easiest to do remotely or from any location. The knowledge sector jobs of finance, accounting, purchasing, IT, and the like that GM primarily had in the Ren Cen can easily be done anywhere. Also, that the majority of those people lived out in the suburbs with a 30-60 minute commute makes them the least likely to even want to come into the office on a hybrid or part-time basis.

I was in the Ren Cen a few weeks ago and it was an absolute ghost town. No better than when I was there a few times in Summer 2021. I would be shocked if they get even 20% of pre pandemic badge swipes.

GM will probably always retain most / all of Tower 300. I doubt the executive offices leave and there will most certainly be functions that maintain a hybrid presence in the Ren Cen.

The Marriott, I have heard, actually gets pretty full still on weekend and when events are going on downtown. Its still viewed as a prime hotel and lot of people still want to go downtown and take in all things for a nice evening / weekend out in the city to do the shows/sporting events/casinos/restaurants/bars etc.

I thought I heard BCBS was downsizing a lot out of Tower 500/600.
Deloitte left Tower 200 a few months ago.

The Wintergarden was desolete when I was there. Panera was still open.
The Food Court was deserted, I think maybe 2-3 restaurants were open.

Its weird. Its not sustainable in its current model.

Its kind of sad actually.

**Vitalis** · June-24-22, 12:44 AM

Thanks for posting, DetroitPride313. It's been a while since I've even thought about the RenCen - though I live closer to it today than I did when I worked down there: 1976-1982. Those of us working there in the early years did our best to embrace what we had. Many of us took the bad reviews, jokes, and such, personally. The ideas floated here about future mixed usage make sense. Happy that the hotel is seemingly still a destination. Now about those former movie screens - the RenCen 3 -I'm sure they opened in '78; several of us who worked together in Tower 300 went there weekly for quite a while. There was a show starting just after 5pm to grab some of the after work audience. Not sure when GM closed them - and for what? A training center/education center?? These theaters should be brought back to life in any future re-imagining of the Center.

**Jason** · June-24-22, 12:47 AM

I imagine 500 and 600 would be the easiest to convert, because they're separate from the rest of the complex, have their own parking, and their central elevator cores are probably more conducive to residential floor plans. There's also fewer privacy issues [[neighboring towers looking into the glassy facades).

If I owned both the Ren Cen and a magic checkbook, I would demolish the parking garages and expand the podium. The extended podium would continue the # shaped circulation pattern, but would also include a new wintergarden-esque axial atrium, aligned with Franklin. This new atrium would integrate with and transition from Franklin Street and the traditional urbanism of Rivertown, and might be something like an enclosed Japanese shopping street that becomes increasingly formal as you go deeper into it. On top of the podium would be residential towers which would continue the design language of the existing towers.

**kuuma** · June-24-22, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by K-slice

Bingo, the Ren Cen has one side that can actually connect to other development and they squander it with giant parking garages and fenced in surface lots. Acres and acres of prime riverfront real estate which should be full of hotels, apartments, condos, and retail are barren parking lots.

Yep, this is the obvious fix from my perspective. The closest commensurate development I know is NYC's Brookfield Place, which is also a multi-tower office complex with a beautiful glass wintergarden overlooking the riverfront... the difference being Brookfield is surrounded by a very thoroughly planned residential district called Battery Park City [[and of course, the WTC complex is just across the way).

it's mind boggling to me how that surface lot is still a wasteland with how many people frequent the riverwalk. there's so much opportunity for foot traffic there, why is there no plan for retail/residential along Atwater there?

Detroit is going in the right direction in thinking of mixed-use repurposing for existing and planned big projects, but we simply have to be moving faster in eliminating these massive parking lot dead zones if we want to save office spaces from completely losing their quality-of-life appeal. Won't start on transit expansion in this thread but those are the two solutions imo

**stasu1213** · June-24-22, 07:35 AM

Thr RenCen was part of a plan to redo the Detroit Riverfront from bridge to bridge. The plans started around the early 50s with the developing of the Veterans Memorial Building. Ford Auditorium and Cobo Hall came soon after. Hart Plaza was part of the plan as well. The RenCen was part of that plan which originally was to have around eight smaller towers. I guess the location was also picked following the location of the World Trade Centers in New York which was at the foot of lower Manhattan. Unfortunately unlike New York downtown Detroit land the rest of the city were on a decline hemorrhaging people and businesses each year sine 1950.

**ABetterDetroit** · June-24-22, 09:23 AM

Not trying to point out the obvious here but as much as we all dislike the RenCen parking lots they are not going anywhere soon. They will be the future pit area and tarmac of the Downtown Grand Prix.

**Gistok** · June-24-22, 09:45 AM

The original Renaissance Center 15 tower design, including 8 towers that were never built. It also included residential, although I believe they were planned for waterfront terraced housing.

**401don** · June-24-22, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

GM, unlike Gilbert and Bedrock, is so disconnected to the rest of the downtown community that it isolated itself into a pickle barrel. GM only think of itself as an office building only and really doesn't care about making its building more visitor friendly by having more retail inside its Winter Garden that would attract Riverwalk participants inside. Management, whom probably wasn't born and raised in Detroit nor metro Detroit, don't see the importance in connecting the RenCen to the rest of downtown Detroit and its development

Seriously? GM didn't build the RenCen. They saved it by buying it. If they don't care why did they spend millions to remove the berms, build the skywalk, build the Wintergarden, hire Hines to lease retail space, leased the parking garage for an Asian Marketplace, keep the theaters open years after they were losing money, hold concerts on the river, etc.? We all know the problems with the original design. What exactly do you want them to do with the retail space that they haven't already tried?

**southen** · June-24-22, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Not trying to point out the obvious here but as much as we all dislike the RenCen parking lots they are not going anywhere soon. They will be the future pit area and tarmac of the Downtown Grand Prix.

That can change in a hurry if they feel they can make more money off that land through development. There aren’t any plans to remove the paddock on Belle Isle which sadly means the island will always be an option.

**13606Cedargrove** · June-24-22, 10:45 AM

I worked at the Detroit Plaza from '78 - '81. I have visited the RenCen occasionally since that time. As a hotel, it is a nightmare to operate profitably due to its design. The shortcomings of its function as an office and shopping venue seem to have not really been addressed either. Issues with the Portman siblings in LA and Atlanta were apparent in the '70's [[I worked for the same operator) but not addressed in Detroit. It is a fundamentally flawed project that I believe cannot be corrected without considerable investment that would probably exceed its value. GM bought time for the project, and should be applauded for their efforts, but I feel it is ultimately doomed. I take no pleasure in expressing these opinions.

**Henry Whalley** · June-24-22, 03:33 PM

I wish it was at a crossroads in Siberia rather than where it is.

**canuck** · June-24-22, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Henry Whalley

I wish it was at a crossroads in Siberia rather than where it is.

Who knows?

There’s a pretty good chance this complex has a doppelganger in Siberia with a bunch of hypersonic missiles aiming at me.

**stasu1213** · June-24-22, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

Seriously? GM didn't build the RenCen. They saved it by buying it. If they don't care why did they spend millions to remove the berms, build the skywalk, build the Wintergarden, hire Hines to lease retail space, leased the parking garage for an Asian Marketplace, keep the theaters open years after they were losing money, hold concerts on the river, etc.? We all know the problems with the original design. What exactly do you want them to do with the retail space that they haven't already tried?

What had G.M. done lately? G.M. under the previous management had done the renovation to the RenCen. What had this CEO and management done for the building within the last 7 years? The Asian Market closed within a year of its opening. The Winter Garden is underutilized. G.M. management only care to use the building as office space only. I would not be surprised it they sell the complex

**401don** · June-25-22, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

What had G.M. done lately? G.M. under the previous management had done the renovation to the RenCen. What had this CEO and management done for the building within the last 7 years? The Asian Market closed within a year of its opening. The Winter Garden is underutilized. G.M. management only care to use the building as office space only. I would not be surprised it they sell the complex

So you're stating the obvious. There's no demand for retail in the Ren Cen and hasn't been since it opened. So the current management should do what exactly? I'm sure they would be thrilled to sell it. They reportedly already tried Gilbert.

**Jason** · June-25-22, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

What had G.M. done lately? G.M. under the previous management had done the renovation to the RenCen. What had this CEO and management done for the building within the last 7 years? The Asian Market closed within a year of its opening. The Winter Garden is underutilized. G.M. management only care to use the building as office space only. I would not be surprised it they sell the complex

Within the last 7 years:

GM World and the food court, which is most of the lower level of the podium, was completely renovated and it turned out really nice.

[[They also had plans to basically rebuild the NE corner of the podium, extending it directly to the People Mover station, but these were cancelled.)

Two newer and better restaurants at the top.

The Marriot renovated all of their rooms and other spaces.

I'm not sure but I think they renovated GMs office space too.

**DetroitSoldier** · June-25-22, 03:00 PM

Highlands, a new-ish restaurant on the 71st floor of the hotel tower is one of the best restaurants in the city. Definitely recommend it to anyone who appreciates high quality meat and a good view. Also the bar is far more casual than the previous one in that space.

**One Shot** · June-25-22, 03:42 PM

I personally like the Ren Cen. The confusing spaces were always the attraction. Like a grownups version of a maze. I think gutting the center to display cars was a bad move. I liked the fountains and garden feel better. It’s an oddity that we just have to deal with. I realize that doesn’t pay bills though.