Judge orders Packard Plant Demolition

[Richard]

The March 31 order declared that the more than 30 parcels owned by Palazuelo “are a public nuisance which interfere with common rights enjoyed by the general public by significantly threatening the public’s health, safety and welfare.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...ic%20nuisance.

Gives him 45 days to demolish,but let’s break it down

Packard Plant as a whole consists of over 150 individual parcels that make up what is referenced as The Packard Plant.

The current owner owns 40 parcels out of 30 are being required to be demolished.

The city owns an unknown amount of those parcels,which is now on the hook to pay to demolish also because they are connected to the parcels that are in the demolition order.

For instance,the city owns the parcel that was connected to the now collapsed walkway.

So what happens now ? Does the owner of the adjacent property have to take a saw and cut their parcel away and demolish it? Are they also going to be required to seal up the vacant holes that will be left or is the city really ready to commit millions into demolishing their parcels also?

When you look at the long stretch of factory,view it as a row of teeth and you are removing every other one while creating gaps,what then happens to the adjoining properties on each side?

When the city tax foreclosed on the parcels for the last auction,they did not even know how many or what parcels to actually foreclosure on,they actually added to the madness because of that and created even more of a mess up.

I would agree there could be a case made for demolition because of failed commitments,current taxes owed etc,I question the timing and if the city actually has its ducks in a row when it comes to who actually owns what.

If one was looking at priorities when it came to spending millions in demolitions within the city,how many neighborhoods would benefit more then a factory that is far removed from the city center and how many residents does it negatively impact?

It looks like crap but as an open space factory and factory only it still has the structural bones where it could be revamped in a timely manner.

It is not the factory that is bringing the city down,it is the city and state that are bringing each other down,other states people are spending billions to build new factories but in Detroit and Michigan, the only view is still a scorch and burn your way to the future,it did not work in the 50s 60s and it will not work again,even more so now when factories are coming back in demand out of necessity.

Its the attitude of it’s the ugly factory that is holding us back,demolish it.

How about,we have this factory,what can we do as a city and state to encourage investors to put it back online.

They sold it to the wrong guy,what they need to do is take it back,clear up all of the discrepancies in the assembly of the parcels and market it as a complete project.

Even if the entire place is demolished,it will still have multiple owners,owning separate parcels,so they still will not be able to market it as a continuous parcel.

They need to fix the legalities of it first,otherwise they are going to be throwing millions of taxpayer dollars into demolishing something that will still not be a marketable property.

Is that really the best move when as a city you are trying to move forward without repeating the mistakes of the past?

[bibs]

The urgency makes me think that a corporation or a developer with big bucks has approached the city. It will probably end up being turned into an industrial complex or warehousing and distribution.

[casscorridor]

45 days lol. That's obviously not a serious order. A site of that size, and likely contaminated, will take much longer.

[Honky Tonk]

45 days lol. That's obviously not a serious order. A site of that size, and likely contaminated, will take much longer.

I wonder if the 45 days includes brownfield remediation? My guess is not. As much as I appreciate the Packard Plant's historical significance, I think at this point it's beyond salvation. Maybe it's time to move on.

[Richard]

The state did a environmental survey years ago on the place,the only contamination at that time,was a small section that was listed where some transformers were illegally dumped.

Thats not to say there has been more caused by some of the illegal demolition that took place sense.

The rule of thumb when it comes to contamination is the level of,you can take an industrial site that is contaminated and re-use it as an industrial site but not as a site for residential or school etc. where the public has contact with the soil.

The city future plan keeps that entire area zoned industrial,heavy/light,so coming in there with the hopes of residential or stores are a no go from the start.

Because of the times we need to be bringing factories online fast,as a large open space such as a chip factory,it still contains a large amount of usable space,but like I posted,it is not the condition of the property that is its crutch and even if it is demolished it will not solve the problem there.

I think a lot of what is behind the demolition order time frame is because the current owners asking for the 5 million,that was my offer 8 years ago after doing due diligence and rehabilitation estimates,but sense then,a lot more has been demolished and material cost have increased dramatically.

[401don]

Sounds like the judge was frustrated like everyone else but expecting Palazuelo to demolish it now is unrealistic. He will just walk away if not allowed to sell his portion. Give the guy credit for at least trying after it was left for decades but we all knew his plan was a pipe dream. Expecting the city to suddenly find millions for demolition which it has not budgeted for is also unrealistic.

[Burnsie]

..........
It looks like crap but as an open space factory and factory only it still has the structural bones where it could be revamped in a timely manner.

It is not the factory that is bringing the city down,it is the city and state that are bringing each other down,other states people are spending billions to build new factories but in Detroit and Michigan, the only view is still a scorch and burn your way to the future,it did not work in the 50s 60s and it will not work again,even more so now when factories are coming back in demand out of necessity.

Its the attitude of it’s the ugly factory that is holding us back,demolish it.

How about,we have this factory,what can we do as a city and state to encourage investors to put it back online.

I don't know what you mean by "scorch and burn" back in the '50s-'60s. Factories closed in Detroit then because of the Big 3 consolidating its power over the independents, cheaper labor down south for parts firms, they were aging multistory buildings, and there was little room to expand.

Companies that want factories go with single story structures. It's been like that for many decades. They also like big buffer zones between the building and the street. It's a lot easier to buy a few acres in Macomb Township or wherever and throw up a sheet metal shed than try to find some structurally stable parts of the Packard Plant and then renovate them.

[Richard]

Urban renewal AKA scorch and burn.

It was an attempt to counter react white flight from the cities and an attempt to compete with the suburbs.

The same mindset is being used 60 years later,tear it all down and they will come.

In Detroit’s case they wiped out an entire established community in order to make room for an automobile manufacturer that never even built where everything was demolished.Hudson’s,hundreds of vacant lots now as parking lots.

It did not work back then and it does not work now,all it does is destroy the fabric of the city.

That is also a false excuse that the plants opened up in the south because of the cheap labor rates,everything is relevant when it comes to COL and labor rates,there is a $3 difference in the COL in Michigan verses in Alabama,the factory’s located in the south because of low tax rates and other state governments that pushed to encourage their placement.

Pole town was cleared out for a auto manufacturer,60 years later the dirt is still sitting there waiting.

That is why places like Packard exists,because people are more caught up in it will never happen so why bother,instead of,what do we do to make it happen?

Then comes a whole hard drive full of excuses of why it can never happen.

I had a structural analysis done on Packard back then,at the same time everybody was also saying that it was to far gone and needed to be demolished,the experts that do that for a living told me otherwise.

I have been in the contracting aspect for over 30 years,with many historical projects under my belt,I have yet to find one person that can look at a structure and make a case for demolition based simply on looking at it.

But people in general are visually minded,they make decisions on what something looks like verses practicality.

Even 100 years later that place was overbuilt and if people did not have such a destructive evilness about them,that place could have stood empty for many generations with little deterioration.

Old does not necessitate lack of functionality,but a lot think it does which is why they stay in debt.

We could do a go-fund-me challenge

Set it at $9 million

The challenge would be I could get Packard up and completed as factory/storage space before anybody else could take the same $9 million and build new from scratch.

Time is money,it would take up to 6 months before you can even acquire all of the permits before you can even break ground on a new build,a lot of Packard work is grandfathered in.

Nobody can build new from scratch and equal that sqft for anything even remotely close to that number.

For what it is going to cost the taxpayers to demolish that place,you could spend less and actually have an center of opportunity that pays a return to the taxpayers and community,but instead let’s figure out a way to increase taxpayer debt by demolishing a place so you can spend more taxpayer money in order to pay somebody to build it new again.

People are nuts about going green,do you how many solar arrays you can put on the roof of a mile long factory?

Detroit would have the largest urban solar array in the country without displacing 1 sq inch of real estate dirt in the process.

[K-slice]

On the positive side, rehab of the Packard Motel a block away seems to be complete!

[mauser]

tear that schitt down ! Jacopo Peterman should not be allowed to retain any of these properties after the death in the cold storage building.

[Smirnoff]

We [[USA) should eliminate the option of foreign people purchasing property to just "pump & dump" in our country! Nobody bought into Palazuelos multi-million dollar get rich idea. . . ...[[American Greed TV show material).

[Burnsie]

No surprises here, misses demolition deadline. Probably long since back in Peru. Good luck collecting any of that $10 million. What a joke. https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ne/7394785001/

[slick]

No surprises here, misses demolition deadline. Probably long since back in Peru. Good luck collecting any of that $10 million. What a joke. https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ne/7394785001/

Big city "bait and switch".

Sell property cheap .5M
no assistance for rehab
force owner to demolish said property.
what a joke!

[slick]

An internet searched yield this article about Fernando.


https://www.ozy.com/the-new-and-the-...ildings/92000/

[Gistok]

An internet searched yield this article about Fernando.


https://www.ozy.com/the-new-and-the-...ildings/92000/

He has restored a lot of historic buildings in Lima Peru... being their version of Dan Gilbert. Unfortunately he bit off more than he could chew with the Packard Plant. Most on this forum thought him crazy for doing so, but the vast complex was just too large and too far gone. Also, it was not a complex that had any architectural details.

[Richard]

He still tried to buy the Plymouth road complex and several other buildings and if I am not mistaken a few in Cleveland.

Massive difference in undertaking a project in the U.S. verses Spain and Peru,labor and materials are cheap even more so when it comes to highly intricate details,like ornate stuff because there are a lot more that do that on a daily basis whereas in the states it is hard and expensive to find people with that skill level.

They do not throw up Sheetrock they plaster as a majority.

Packard would be mostly concrete and rebar,lots of it and very labor intensive,but like I posted before,it is doable as a factory that needs large open spaces,once you try and get into office space etc the infrastructure needed to support that pushes the costs over the roof.

Then you have to compete with the existing office space that is rapidly opening up in the city,the last six years has been all about manufacturing in the U.S. and bringing it back and all across the country billions are being spent building new plants,if one cannot figure out how to capitalize on that,not much hope.

But let’s be honest,the city says they will pay the $10 million to demolish it and then go after him,does anybody really think they can collect it?

All he has to do is bankrupt the company and move on.

So the city taxpayers have to pay the $10 million over and above the extra millions it will cost to demolish the city owned parts.

So let’s say the total will be $15 million,the argument can be made where it is ugly and should be demolished but is it really that bad for the majority of the city,where you are ready to take the $15 million away from other places where the citizens are directly impacted.

They are not going to demolish the whole entire plant,it keeps saying that it is 40 acres but you are not creating a continuous 40 acre plot in the hopes that somebody will build a factory on it.

It would be different if it did clear up a 40 acre plot but all you are going to do is create another section in the city that has gaps of buildings and empty lots that will become dumping grounds and overgrown.

There is a pile of free money right now but as everybody knows the future of the economy is a bit unstable,so to me anyways the $15 + million would be better spent reducing stress on more devolved neighborhoods and bring their tax obligation down so they can get some relief.

Today the situation sucks with that place but it is short sited to demolish it right now,the cost of materials are increasing for new build,it is a place that can be put back online in a faster and more economical time frame then new build.

Nothing is really being accomplished at this moment spending the $15 million there outside of leveling it.

By the time the city and state gets the political will in order to support investment,jobs and opportunity the only thing that is going to be left is parking lots and a lot of overstretched taxpayers.

The basis is it is a direct threat and danger to the community as a whole,but is it really?

Honestly at this point I still doubt the city knows who owns what parcels there,they certainly did not when it went up for auction and if they just go in there demolishing Willy nilly like they did last time,it is going to cost the taxpayers a lot more then $15 million.

I would say it has been there this long,you have somebody at least in there keeping an eye on the place,it may be more prudent to let it ride a bit longer.

Car dealers have a saying,there is a seat for every ass,clearly that one is not for his but the landscape in the bigger picture is changing,his will not be in there but somebody will see the potential,mostly because the change of economics will force it back into use as a factory.

Remember when the Packard Land Development Company purchased those parcels they never combined them all into one,legally there are over 150 tô 200 separate addresses there and the city would have to put a demolition order in for every single address,the $10 million number they are giving you is bait and switch.

Not only that the city taxpayers will be on the hook for securing the adjoining building and liable for any damages that happens to them during the process.

The city would actually have to buy everybody out,then demolish it,otherwise they will be in the middle of it and then there will be 100 different legalities thrown up in front of a judge and then the taxpayers will discover the true picture and it will be ugly.

As taxpayer who is getting involved in this,you need to listen to the opening monologue to The Twilight Zone because that is where you are going with this.

[mauser]

He is not any Dan Gilbert - he is Jacopo Peterman. heh.

[Gistok]

Just how many different owner of different parcels of the Packard Plant are there? Just demolishing this part doesn't do any good, when different parts are left standing.

And then there is the 800 lb. gorilla... the soil. Look at the nightmare that tearing down the Uniroyal site has become. It's been what... 40 years since that complex was torn down... and there's still nothing there because of soil contamination.

I think that tearing down just Palenzuela's part of the Packard Plant is opening Pandora's Box...

[night-timer]

Assuming the Packard was kept intact and not demolished, what would be the best use of it? Does anyone even know? Is there any true demand by anyone at all for that place?

I could see a section of it retained as a Packard Museum with a 'historical society' office and info center, but would many/any visit the place? [[How many Detroit locals? How many tourists? Probably not a lot, and they would come in the summer months only, anyway).

I personally would love to see the Packard survive simply because I think it's a fascinating place, but that alone may not rescue a site that's mostly been neglected for decades.

[Richard]

The state EPA version tested the site years ago and the only ground contamination found or was suspect,was where somebody dumped a pile of transformers.

I do not see how they can demolish on that scale without actually contaminating the ground in the process,in a rehabilitation aspect you can control it by sections.

The rule of thumb with contaminated property is intended use,if it remains industrial use,the contamination does not effect it’s re-use.

If you have a contaminated industrial property and change the use where the public is involved,like a park or school or residential where kids and people are playing in the dirt and will be directly exposed to the contaminated soil,then you are looking at spending millions in remediation.

Lets say the city decides to demolish it,the company screws it up,now you have lead paint,asbestos and other contamination introduced into the soil,all it takes is a rain storm during the process,now it will be in the taxpayers to pay for the costs of remediation.

The current owners,the demo company can all bankrupt the existing company and be back in business the next day under a new name.


When I received the contract before it was over 100 pages,because each parcel has to be legally spelled out in the process,and that did not include the entire site.

It has not been the 3.5 million SQFT as they keep saying for at least 50 years,the end property near the freeway is owned by a separate company,many of the buildings are owned by separate companies and individuals,the city demolished many parcels already,illegaly,originally it was 3.5 million SQFT.

My intended use was related to rail in partial use,bringing the rail systems into the 21st century.

The admin building was going to be the design and think tank aspect with representatives of the existing rail lines and government officials.

It would have addressed safety and infrastructure issues of current rail systems and how to implement new systems for local governments.

Kinda like a one stop shop for cities looking to implement rail cost effective,they would come to Detroit,ride around the city on actual working systems then go to the admin building and work out the funding aspects.

It was basically nationalizing rail systems in the country in that aspect,without actually nationalizing it,the intent was to remove the debate when it comes to implementing new systems and using advanced technology to lower the cost of implementing.

At any rate and in the here and now,the world is changing fast,people are recognizing the drawbacks with offshoring every thing we depend on.

It could be used as a chip production factory,a battery factory,or anything else that people actually need factory space for.

Does one wait for demand or do they create demand?
Or is the demand already there,just when it is 5000 miles away.

They had no problem stripping the civil rights of an entire country over a trucker strike based on its economic impact,but yet never bat an eye when corporations say they are losing billions and stopping production because of a chip delay.

If they are losing billions,would it not make sense to bring that demand back home?

Just in Time is a broken aspect.

So the demand is there for places like Packard,the question is where is the will that would actually benefit the city state and country?

Detroit used to be an international example in many different forms,Packard could also be used to create a clothing district of sorts on a international level

They could go from raw product to finish product all in one place.

The thing about Packard is the open building space,it is not hundreds of millions to fix the basic structure,open space, you need 4 walls a roof and floor,multiple factories in there can carve out their internal designs as they wish.

The cost of materials is going insane,the cost of borrowing money has no choice but to rise,the outlook across the country is taking notice of the urgent need to bring production back locally,the average consumer is starting to realize how expensive it can become when we depend on the rest of the world to put food on our table.

I would say that out of all of the time in the past,the potential for Packard to be put back online as a factory is more ripe now then it has been in the last 50 years.

It’s short sited to demolish it now,and like mentioned will open a Pandora’s box that will take the city out of the window of opportunity again.

That is how it works,time and circumstances create windows of opportunity,you have to take advantage of it when it is there otherwise,it’s like being a hamster on a wheel.

To do Packard you need a political allies that has pull with the state and in Washington,that brings the money,a solid plan that shows a return gets investors.

Everything that is required is right there,but when you take an industrial property and try and make it something that it is not,as you can see,it’s pissing in the wind and setting up for failure.

I kinda expect more from the city, you are a city that the world has looked to for innovation for the last 100 years,more so then any other city in the country,and now when the most support and demand is there to ramp up that innovation the manta is to demolish the very infrastructure that is needed to move ahead and help pull this country back in line to where it needs to be.

Thats not forward thinking,that’s repeating the same mistakes of the 60s and 70s.

I know you guys cannot stand outsiders,but the truth of the matter is you live in a city that from its very inception was designed as an international city and not some little town in the mid west,like it or not,what you do impacts the rest of the country and the world.

Thats the identity crisis in all of this,are you some small little midwestern town amounst yourself or are you Detroit?

Deciding that is what gives you the answer of weather or not to demolish Packard and others like that.

Anyway you look at it as a taxpayer you are going to be in the hook for $15 million to demo it,plus who knows how many millions more to entice a company to come in and build new.

How about you take the same 15 million - stabilize and fix the basic structure,go to Taiwan and say hey look we have this factory ready for you to produce chips in the states for our market?

The $15 million is actually federal funds,so in theroy it is not costing you to demolish it,but it will cost you more to incentivize somebody to come in and build,so what you are doing is leveraging the $15 million and providing a company the work space with no incentives.

So the original $15 million,being federal funds is palatable because you are doing something that impacts the entire country and provides benefit without having to come out of pocket locally.

The city owns parcels there,the walkway that collapsed in the street,the city owns the adjoining building,so they were just as liable for its repairs as the owner of the connecting admin building,as a shared walkway they both had the responsibility to fix and maintain it,even more so because they both knew it was a danger to the community.

The city has not maintained or repaired or secured any of its parcels there but declares the privately owned parcels a danger to the community,they are all connected.

I know what happened with the existing owner,he fell into the same trap I did,it was listed as the Packard plant for sale @ 3.5 million SQFT,he never pealed back the layers and discovered what it actually all entailed,I spent $60,000 out of pocket and 4 months of time doing due diligence and running feasibility numbers,he bought it at auction with little notice and took the advertisement at face value and got a reality check.

The $60k for me was the cost of doing business,but what I did not do was risk the $10 million in outside investment monies that I would have been responsible for,sense I did not have that money in my pocket I had to make sure it was secure and minimal risk,and to walk away when it did not make sense.

To me Packard was the bonus,the actual building was the primary objective,I can play emotionally with my own money but when it comes to somebody else’s,you really cannot take chances.

That is also what is going on with the current owner,there are other investors,local or not that are going to get screwed in all of this that also did little due diligence apparently.

Everybody that owns parcels there, including the city,needs to sit down at a table and straighten out the legalities of it and figure out how to move forward that is beneficial to both the parcel owners and the resident taxpayers.

This is an odd case of demolishing it will not solve the core issues that is preventing it from being rehabilitated in the first place and those core issues will still be there when the next person buys the dirt after the money is spent to demolish it.

The guy that the city foreclosed on in order to put it up for auction,he still owns parcels in there,that is how screwed up it is,the city did not even know who owns what,even though his name was on record.

[Danny]

I know this problem will going to happen. That will be a lesson to Detroit City Council. Never sell a property to anyone who has no idea what their plans are. Especially to foreigners.

[Richard]

They can do that if they are selling already owned city property,at a tax auction all you have to provide is the actual funds at purchase,they cannot force you provide a plan.

Thats why I believe the city owns Fisher Body,because when the announcements are made to rehabilitate it,they are made before the actual purchase of the property and are looking for public support behind the project in order to get the city to sell it to them.

The school district does that,you have to have a plan and proof of funds submitted before you can bid or purchase a old school,even then they restrict the use.

You do not have to worry about the city council hating on outsiders,they already make their stance well known there.

There are some good people in the city and in city government that want what is best for everybody and the city and work hard to make it a better place ,but the reality is there is a big ocean out there and there is no need to jump into the pool of sharks.

[Midnight Rambler]

We could do a go-fund-me challenge

Set it at $9 million

The challenge would be I could get Packard up and completed as factory/storage space before anybody else could take the same $9 million and build new from scratch.

I consider myself open minded. That said, I have to ask what is that figure -- $9 million -- based upon? Assuming we do spend $9 million, in what tangible way is the site improved?

[Richard]

My Vintage E-Machine that I had everything store bit the dust for the particulars and times have changed,I had it pegged at 5 million after purchase at that time but adjusted increased material and labor cost to get the 9 million.

What that included back then and based on verbal commitments with the rail company,purely out door storage of raw materials,and a auto manufacturer as an off site storage of sorts to operate as a JIT 90 day buffer.

What that would have done was create an income that covered carrying costs and partially paid for the future stages.

Included the basics replacing/rebuilding structural integrity\ windows ré manufactured on site/power inside.

Lots of concrete and rebar - Raw materials brought in from the port by rail with a portable concrete plant on site,direct pours,the rebar would have been available from the local steel mill,no longer there though.

Different times now but maybe more advantageous.

I forget the name of the street now that it faces,not the street between the admin building and plant where the walkway collapsed but the other Main Street that runs the length.

Based on two immediate needs or things that would be the most beneficial would be the intent to bring a chip factory in there and roof top solar array,you would have to use a local families political connections in Washington to help lure the fed funds and incentivize the company in Taiwan to motivate them to add an additional factory there.

Everything runs on chips so it is not necessary to produce them specifically for the automotive sector.

We are past the point of producing them cheap,it’s irrelevant how cheap they are if you cannot get them,the military is also going to need chips and with buy American contracts it creates potential.

If the foreign company wants that contract,they have to produce them here in the states.

The feds already are gung ho about throwing up solar and it would be the largest solar array located in a urban setting.

So the objective would be to put that whole run of a building back online from street to street.Call it phase one.

Once you get the chip factory in there it becomes a magnet for other technology based operations,but I would still be leaning towards development of advanced rail systems both in light and heavy aspects.

Looking at specific needs,what the local labor force can support or pretty much useing what you have to work with to your advantage.

Usually a lot of that could be offset by tax credits,brown field credits and tax captures,but to me the object would be to make it a fed thing,because you are looking to benefit the country as a whole and the objective is to provide benefit to the community without increasing the burden on the community.

[night-timer]

I know this problem will going to happen. That will be a lesson to Detroit City Council. Never sell a property to anyone who has no idea what their plans are. Especially to foreigners.

Perhaps he was just a speculator, buying cheap in the hope that it would rebound one day. Maybe he just gambled and lost. It's hard to know what he was thinking, like why he bought-into the Packard but bought nothing downtown. Then again, doesn't he have a track record of successful 'turnaround' deals on fixing up properties that he sees some promise in?