The Q-LINE light rail will remain free.

[Danny]

Dan Gilbert's Toy Train The Q-LINE will remain free and extended. Hopefully it fills up with riders once the weather and businesses build up.

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...gram-launched/

[casscorridor]

Dan Gilbert's Toy Train The Q-LINE will remain free and extended. Hopefully it fills up with riders once the weather and businesses build up.

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...gram-launched/

They should try paying people to ride it! Riders should be call "actors" because they're basically acting like they live in a "real" city, when in reality they're just playing for Daddy Gilbert's toy Choo Choo train. Hope that real estate portfolio is doing great!

[Seven&wyo]

They should try paying people to ride it! Riders should be call "actors" because they're basically acting like they live in a "real" city, when in reality they're just playing for Daddy Gilbert's toy Choo Choo train. Hope that real estate portfolio is doing great!

“Acting like they live in a real city” aren’t you a condescending little prick.

[kuuma]

Riders should be call "actors" because they're basically acting like they live in a "real" city, when in reality they're just playing for Daddy Gilbert's toy Choo Choo train

what a depressing take. if people stopped crapping on the small transit initiatives we do have, and recognized that it's a start to what could be a much more inclusive system, that could drive a critical mass [[and political will) to expand the system into something more useful

instead you're essentially trying to bully it out of existence. through your cynicism you're giving free labor to the special interests' smear campaigns. who really is the "actor"?

[swingline]

They should try paying people to ride it! Riders should be call "actors" because they're basically acting like they live in a "real" city, when in reality they're just playing for Daddy Gilbert's toy Choo Choo train. Hope that real estate portfolio is doing great!

That's right! That area needs to be transformed back to the good ole days, 1960-1980, when you had to be a real Detroiter to live there. What was wrong with all the street corner entrepreneurship they used to have? Nobody needs all that new shit they got now. Should go back to the old name too, right?

[Rocket]

............., and recognized that it's a start to what could be a much more inclusive system, that could .............

NOT gonna happen.

It's a folly, or more correctly, a sales tool to lure millennial types into living downtown.

And it does that job OK, but let's not pretend it will ever amount to real transportation.

I finally saw a car with more than 2 people on it. Most have zero, but last week I saw a car with about 8 riders, one handicapped in a wheelchair.

Rare to see so many riding the system. Of course it was free, so some may just be hanging out in the cars all day because they're heated, and it's cold out.

[EGrant]

The article in the Freep also mentioned that 26 lights on Woodward will give the QLine signal priority. They should have done this when it first launched years ago, but this is a much-needed improvement.

[stasu1213]

NOT gonna happen.

It's a folly, or more correctly, a sales tool to lure millennial types into living downtown.

And it does that job OK, but let's not pretend it will ever amount to real transportation.

I finally saw a car with more than 2 people on it. Most have zero, but last week I saw a car with about 8 riders, one handicapped in a wheelchair.

Rare to see so many riding the system. Of course it was free, so some may just be hanging out in the cars all day because they're heated, and it's cold out.

What time of day had you observed this

[Rocket]

What time of day had you observed this

Hard to be sure. It was mid-day. 1 pm perhaps?

[Zacha341]

Actors? Fake city? What a mess!

Can't the thing just exist and people choose to ride or not without all of the value judgement? Those not so inclined will not be guilted into doing so or otherwise arm-twisted but I think as we exit the height of COVID this summer perhaps more will ride.

Then in the fall the fee option can be revisited.

[softailrider]

The article in the Freep also mentioned that 26 lights on Woodward will give the QLine signal priority. They should have done this when it first launched years ago, but this is a much-needed improvement.

Much needed improvement for the 8 people riding on the trolly, while all the other traffic on Woodward Avenue gets delayed? Doesn't sound like an improvement to me, it sounds like bullshit.

[dtowncitylover]

Much needed improvement for the 8 people riding on the trolly, while all the other traffic on Woodward Avenue gets delayed? Doesn't sound like an improvement to me, it sounds like bullshit.

Oh no. Will someone please think of the other 8 cars on the road. Whatever shall they do being delayed 1 minute.

Do any of you people realize how empty this region is? Good lord. The automobile has absolute supremacy and lordship over our eyes and lives, it's all going to be ok if a little trolly gets the priority for .1% of our region's roads. [[made up statistic, but you get it)

"And it does that job OK, but let's not pretend it will ever amount to real transportation."

1) A streetcar is real transportation. 2) What you actually mean is *effective* transportation. Fair enough. Except it actually does have the ability to be effective if it were connected to an already stable residential hub like SW, Hamtramck, or Alter Rd. and points along Jeff Ave.

Instead, it seems impossible for us to even envision a city and region that can actually work. Same defeatist attitude as ever...

[Zacha341]

^ I live near Woodard, and drive a car - I avoided the whole installation by using John R. etc. What wasn't good was the impact on businesses!

Re. 'real' transportation the elephant in the room is the Door-to-Destination specificity you have when you drive a car. Public transportation outside of a friends picking you up in their car, car pooling, Uber, Lyft or taxi's etc does not provide an individual or their family, friends Door-to-Destination transportation.

I provide rides for friends and family who cannot take busses any more. Not everyone can walk blocks or even around the block [if under medical care] to stand, waiting for a bus, trolley, or train for appointments, work etc. This is a factor in why some choose/ want to drive and be driven.

[ABetterDetroit]

Actors? Fake city? What a mess!

Can't the thing just exist and people choose to ride or not without all of the value judgement?

There are times that you confuse me Zacha. I would think you would understand that there is a faction that with every fiber of their being is rooting for failure of all things Detroit. There is a specific reason for this thought process. It wasn’t a coincidence that the polling places in Detroit where mobbed in 2020. They didn’t go to Auburn Hills or Chesterfield township. The mob knew exactly who to pick on specifically to rally the far right to their cause. Who it was that could never be trusted. Even the POTUS jumped on board.

[dtowncitylover]

^ I live near Woodard, and I drive a car - I avoided the whole installation by using John R. etc. What wasn't good was the impact on businesses!

Re. 'real' transportation the elephant in the room is the Door-to-Destination specificity you have when you drive a car. Public transportation outside of a friends picking you up in their car, car pooling, Uber, Lyft or taxi's etc does not provide an individual or their family, friends Door-to-Destination transportation.

I provide rides for friends and family who cannot take busses any more. Not everyone can walk blocks or even around the block [if under medical care] to stand, waiting for a bus, trolley, or train for appointments, work etc. This is a factor in why some choose/ want to drive and be driven.

And this is the failure of 100 years of civic "leadership" not planning a city correctly.

[Zacha341]

I was being sardonic in a way. Regarding the elections, without siding with any party I'm a former election worker - many years on several levels [I declined to work 2020 due to the severity of COVID at the time]. And the can tell you [as witnessed] that vote 'challengers' are not new.

They [dems and rep] visit precincts as election day draws on thru closing. I witnessed them during former president Obama's Election I worked as well. As for other interactions within the voting processes by the 'mobs' in general, well, I'll just not comment. As it rarely bows productively.

There are times that you confuse me Zacha. I would think you would understand that there is a faction that with every fiber of their being is rooting for failure of all things Detroit. There is a specific reason for this thought process. It wasn’t a coincidence that the polling places in Detroit where mobbed in 2020. They didn’t go to Auburn Hills or Chesterfield township. The mob knew exactly who to pick on specifically to rally the far right to their cause....

[Zacha341]

I don't see it as failure. No public bus or trolley was or is meant to pull up to anyones precise door. My comment was to point out that some will always prefer transportation to and from their door [their own car].

And this is the failure of 100 years of civic "leadership" not planning a city correctly.

[Rocket]

Instead, it seems impossible for us to even envision a city and region that can actually work. Same defeatist attitude as ever...

One person's 'defeatist' is another person's Realist.

The probability of a light-rail / bus merged system ever working is minuscule. And even if it were in place, it's all but impossible to coordinate them together so the transfers are quick and smooth.

So what you end up with is a system that offers rides that take 1.5 hours to go where a car takes you in 20 minutes. And of that, 40 min is spent standing outside, often in the rain or snow, and with the threat of being robbed or murdered.

So not many people end up riding the system.

The other issue is that the dreamers and visionaries who push for such a system never come back 10 years later and give us our billions back when it doesn't work. So unless they're going to put billions into an escrow account for when it doesn't work, we need to be very conservative in our estimates of ridership, financial sustainability, the crippling of other traffic, destruction to business etc when deciding on whether to embark on such a system.

History can help us out here [[those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it). And we had perhaps the best light rail system in the world once upon a time. But by the early 1950's, ridership had slipped to a small fraction of what it had been, and the system was paved over. [[And yes, there was politics helping it's demise).

And now, housing density is a fraction of what it was, so ridership would be 1/4 or less of what it was in the mid '50's, which is to say dismal.

And we have to foot the bill for a brand new system? Yikes.

Wouldn't it be cheaper just to buy every poor family in Detroit a new Kia?

[dtowncitylover]

One person's 'defeatist' is another person's Realist.

The probability of a light-rail / bus merged system ever working is minuscule. And even if it were in place, it's all but impossible to coordinate them together so the transfers are quick and smooth.

So what you end up with is a system that offers rides that take 1.5 hours to go where a car takes you in 20 minutes. And of that, 40 min is spent standing outside, often in the rain or snow, and with the threat of being robbed or murdered.

So not many people end up riding the system.

The other issue is that the dreamers and visionaries who push for such a system never come back 10 years later and give us our billions back when it doesn't work. So unless they're going to put billions into an escrow account for when it doesn't work, we need to be very conservative in our estimates of ridership, financial sustainability, the crippling of other traffic, destruction to business etc when deciding on whether to embark on such a system.

History can help us out here [[those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it). And we had perhaps the best light rail system in the world once upon a time. But by the early 1950's, ridership had slipped to a small fraction of what it had been, and the system was paved over. [[And yes, there was politics helping it's demise).

And now, housing density is a fraction of what it was, so ridership would be 1/4 or less of what it was in the mid '50's, which is to say dismal.

And we have to foot the bill for a brand new system? Yikes.

Wouldn't it be cheaper just to buy every poor family in Detroit a new Kia?

Wow buying poor people a new car. How exciting. Let them foot the bill for insurance, tabs, gas, repairs, tickets. Such a blessing for them. [[Don't we bitch about "them" when they cause accidents and drive away because they don't have insurance?)

"The other issue is that the dreamers and visionaries who push for such a system never come back 10 years later and give us our billions back when it doesn't work."

When what doesn't work? Public transit? Has any city have buyer's remorse when building a transit system? Don't we have "buyer's" remorse because we dismantled ours?

So yes, I guess it is for the best to continue to de-populate and drive around the same stagnant, fractured region we know and love. Of course, I'm not even talking only about transit. This region is like old church, needs a lot of repairs, has a dwindling, aging population, and the money that is coming in is being fought over, and the money we need most is non-existent.

We also bitch all the time about how un-visionary the Illitches are and how we wish they would actually produce the visionary projects they've put forward. But God-forbid anyone or any government agency have a vision [[never mind how bold the 2016 RTA plan was and now anything we get from will pale in comparison because Macomb County can't be bothered to participate in the human family and 10,000 Detroiters can't be bothered to vote) for the future when it comes to anything in the region because iT WoUlD bE tOo ExPeNsIvE.

[Rocket]

Just did the math on the 3.3 mile Q-Line.

Ridership peaked at about 3,000 per day once they started charging fares.

If we presume those were all round trips, and that no one made 2 round trips in any given day, that's about 1,500 users.

If we bought them all a new Mercedes S-Class in 2017, it would come out to $142 million, which is less than the Q-Line.

Better yet, we could buy them a new Kia, plus a free gas card for 5 years and pay for their plates and insurance.

The benefit is the riders would have increased safety, spend less time being sick from standing out in the cold, and would have a couple more hours a day in which they could work. They would also have much more job opportunities, and not be imprisoned in a cycle of poverty like mass transit systems tend to cause.

I know someone is going to mock the idea, but it's no less stupid than light rail in a city other than Frisco or New York.

[Zacha341]

^ Eh, the Mercedes [particularly that model] would be unaffordable to maintain after first three years! Tinker-mobile deluxe IM0 - best leased. Not owned.

I don't think the government should be in the business of buying personal cars. But the admittedly the expense 'can' be a bit much, thus more are keeping the long runners beyond the financing and what not. If you purchase a fussy model then you pay and things get really out of hand, but there's plenty of review information on what makes and models to consider, and ones to avoid!

[Rocket]

^ Eh, the Mercedes [particularly that model] would be unaffordable to maintain after first three years! Tinker-mobile deluxe IM0 - best leased. Not owned.

I don't think the government should be in the business of buying personal cars.

Of course.

I was simply trying to put into perspective the financial absurdity of building the MOST expensive, yet LEAST flexible transit method ever devised.

Mercs are some of the most reliable cars in reality, even as complex as they are, but yeah, an S-Class in particular that takes $180 wiper blades is not a good idea.

However, a $22k Kia Seltos with it's 10 year / 100,000 mile warranty and 31 mpg combined fuel economy is A FIFTH of the cost of light rail, and only twice that of an expanded bus service.

And I totally agree with you. The government shouldn't be buying people cars. And 5x shouldn't be building light rail systems.

[K-slice]

This is the most moronic argument I've ever seen.

[Rocket]

This is the most moronic argument I've ever seen.

Right.

And being as it's only 1/5 as moronic as the hallucination filled proposals are for light rail, we should definitely avoid light rail.

If you can't achieve your transit goals with buses, you 10 x can't do it with light rail.

[You can find many of these hallucinations yourself, even without attending the planning meetings, such as the proposed 8,500 riders a day at x dollars per fare. Then the system goes into service and has 3,000 riders per day, with only 40% of those bothering to pay the fare. I.E. only 14% of the fares that they suggested they'd be able to collect].

This will serve you well when analyzing future light rail proposals [like you may already be doing when analyzing proposed Illich development renderings]. Multiply the revenue they project for future light rail installations by 0.141 and then check to see if the finances still pan out.

[casscorridor]

Transit should have a justification based in reality, supported by data. Many cities around the world offer excellent transit services that a bus or cars alone could never provide. But as others have pointed out, the Q-Line [[like most streetcars across the country) has missed its ridership targets by a large margin. But why?

Q-Line style streetcars have been failures nearly everywhere they've been built [[although it's important to make a distinction between "light rail" which is typically used to describe a commuter system that is less heavy than conventional rail). The original Woodward Light rail project would have likely been much more successful, because it would have had to justified itself to the federal government to win funding. Thus, it would have been faster, more frequent and actually served riders with enhanced service over existing buses. Q-Line is the exact opposite, it's slower and less frequent than existing buses. So what the f*** is the point of it besides to make people feel good about themselves that streetcars are finally back on Woodward????

Have any of you actually used it besides as pure novelty? Like to get to work? To get to the doctor? To do anything besides ride it like an amusement park ride?