What to do with Belle Isle?

[Genesyxx]

Its been awhile since posting and sorry for any duplicates.

I think we can all agree Belle Isle isn't being used to its full capacity. A few nature trails here, hold a few events at the bandshell, reopen the Giant Slide and do SOMETHING with the zoo. Is it just that its too much red tape between the city, county and state to deal with, or has anyone heard of any plans?

[Kathleen]

Belle Isle is different from the other Michigan State Parks, given its location and its history. I always think of our state parks as places to go to enjoy their natural beauty and to take advantage of their natural resources, with events associated with those resources.

Not sure what events I expect to be held on Belle Isle. We've enjoyed many events hosted by the Belle Isle Conservancy. And some events hosted by other groups.

In the last few years, there have been many projects on the island to make improvements. This report outlines what's been happening...
Belle Isle Annual Report FY2020
https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Pro...port_FY20.pdf?

The Belle Isle Conservancy continues their work to carry out their mission.
https://www.belleisleconservancy.org/

It will be interesting to see how Belle Isle develops in the next couple years as projects are completed. I look forward to seeing what events are held there.

[Henry Whalley]

Is there more than one fountain on Belle Isle? I only recall the large fountain.

[Gistok]

As for fountains, the Scott Fountain is the only one I know of. There is the mini fountain in the conservatory Tropical room, and at least a water spray in the pool between the conservatory and aquarium. But there are a number of monuments [[statues) around the island.

I believe that the city wants to spend $50 million of their Federal American Rescue Plan money on the island.

It would be nice if the island got some of the $1.2 billion of the Ralph Wilson Foundation money [[which is paying for the west riverfront park).

[Richard]

As for fountains, the Scott Fountain is the only one I know of. There is the mini fountain in the conservatory Tropical room, and at least a water spray in the pool between the conservatory and aquarium. But there are a number of monuments [[statues) around the island.

I believe that the city wants to spend $50 million of their Federal American Rescue Plan money on the island.

It would be nice if the island got some of the $1.2 billion of the Ralph Wilson Foundation money [[which is paying for the west riverfront park).

The city leased the park to the state,with the exception of the greenhouses they cannot spend $50 million from the rescue plan.

Because they leased it out for 30 years they do not have the legal authority to spend anything on it.

Here are the lease terms.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/Belle_Isle_Lease_397744_7.pdf

The whole reasoning behind leasing it out to the state as a state park was because at that time people decided the city could not afford it,so they turned it over to the state which includes all financial responsibilities for improvements,outside of the greenhouses.

You cannot say,I am giving this up because we do not have the funds to maintain it then a few years later say,we found this 50 million to spend on it now we want to have a say in it.

The city washed its hands from it financially,if there is an extra $50 million laying about there are maybe more pressing quality of life issues within the city.

The state receives all proceeds from anything that happens in the isle,events etc. so for the city to throw $50 million at it while expecting no return is like saying,everything else in the city priority wise is just fine and we have an extra $50 million to spend in surplus.

The state is in control of who does what and where and how.

The city may be able to donate $50 million to the state park system but the state park system would not be obligated to spend it on the isle.

As would most likely be the case with anybody else looking to put money into it.

[Gistok]

^Someone who IS a lawyer probably OK'ed the city adding $50 million for Belle Isle to the wish list of things that the city wants to spend money on...

https://www.detroitchamber.com/detro...pand-services/

[Richard]

^Someone who IS a lawyer probably OK'ed the city adding $50 million for Belle Isle to the wish list of things that the city wants to spend money on...

https://www.detroitchamber.com/detro...pand-services/

You do realize that the funds are not given directly to the city by the White House,they are given to the state who then gives them to the cities.

The state could have just as easily allocated the same $50 million and earmarked it for belle isle to the parks system.

It does not take a lawyer to interpret a lease,the whole purpose of a lease is to spell it all out,and you are using a wish list as a basis of fact,the only facts are spelled out in the lease terms.

The city has no control over Belle Isle for the next 30 years,do you really think that they are going to put $50 million into it when there are more pressing immediate needs?

It is not the place of the city to say what monies will be spent on the Island,because they have no control over it.

Its not that complicated.

It’s free money,the objective would be to do things that would directly impact the city taxpayers which would decrease their tax obligations.

[401don]

The city washed its hands from it financially,if there is an extra $50 million laying about there are maybe more pressing quality of life issues within the city.

It seems like half the announced spending in the rescue plan is "fun money". With all the necessary pandemic spending due to healthcare/slowing of the economy, you would think gov't would be a little more careful but instead gov'ts at all levels seem to be spending like drunken sailors the last few years and the debt be damned. It's the exact same in Canada. Yesterday we got free dental and prescriptions thrown in. Great! [[But then I don't have any kids to inherit the mess).

[Richard]

^ it makes you wonder what is going to happen next year,the UK is already projecting a 8.5% inflation rate by end of summer and extra consumer costs between an additional $700 to $1000 per month,not seen sense the 1950s,they were still under war rations at that time.

So what happens in the next few years when the current windfall is spent and city revenue drops.

Detroit is on stable financial ground now but I think there is going to be a lot of cities hurting really quick,one would hope they would stick some back and prepare for it but cannot have it burning a hole in their pocket.

The sad part is the money is counterproductive in a way because the costs have increased so much the dollar value is low,it would be nice if they could bank it,collect the interest for a year and when the economy drops they could probably spend it at double the impact verses today.

Detroit already cleared the books from the pandemic,so it is kinda of a wish list slush fund of sorts, as long as the proper priorities are there.

Being in the government in a past life,that is the way it works though,get $50 million,you better spend it,even if it is by paying $1000 for a toilet seat,if you do not then you will not get it next year.

There always comes a time when that piper wants to get paid.

[Lowell]

Its been awhile since posting and sorry for any duplicates.

I think we can all agree Belle Isle isn't being used to its full capacity. A few nature trails here, hold a few events at the bandshell, reopen the Giant Slide and do SOMETHING with the zoo. Is it just that its too much red tape between the city, county and state to deal with, or has anyone heard of any plans?

That may be the case but it still is by far the most highly attended state park in the state.

I'm steamed at the state for shutting down the handball courts with claimed intentions to repaint them. They then declared they were going to remove the ceilings due to leakage after saying it would cost $300K to repair them, ignoring the handball/raquetball community's provided estimates in the $30K range, half of which they offered to donate. Three years later they remain chained up, although I see the have removed the ceilings. That accounts for several thousand less annual visitors. Grrrr

[Richard]

That may be the case but it still is by far the most highly attended state park in the state.

I'm steamed at the state for shutting down the handball courts with claimed intentions to repaint them. They then declared they were going to remove the ceilings due to leakage after saying it would cost $300K to repair them, ignoring the handball/raquetball community's provided estimates in the $30K range, half of which they offered to donate. Three years later they remain chained up, although I see the have removed the ceilings. That accounts for several thousand less annual visitors. Grrrr

There is so much opportunity there it is crazy,but most state run parks are not intensive like Belle Isle would be,to oversee it would be a complex full time job in itself.

By design state parks are low maintenance with very few extras outside of a gazebo to rent for events,when the state took that over they also took over control of the non profits working there,at any time they can pull those plugs.

I still think that was one of the worst deals in the cities history.

[stinkytofu]

To state the obvious - and not that the city would have necessarily done a better job - but I definitely expected much more when the state took it over. Quite disappointing it's still in the state it's in.

[401don]

To state the obvious - and not that the city would have necessarily done a better job - but I definitely expected much more when the state took it over. Quite disappointing it's still in the state it's in.

You have to wonder if they assumed the city wasn't just out of money but was mismanaging the island and they could maintain it for a lot less money than they thought. As others have stated, there are a lot more activities -golf, water slides, playground equipment, tons of large picnics, etc. than a regular state park and along with aging infrastructure the upkeep is huge.

[MikeM]

That may be the case but it still is by far the most highly attended state park in the state.

I'm steamed at the state for shutting down the handball courts with claimed intentions to repaint them. They then declared they were going to remove the ceilings due to leakage after saying it would cost $300K to repair them, ignoring the handball/raquetball community's provided estimates in the $30K range, half of which they offered to donate. Three years later they remain chained up, although I see the have removed the ceilings. That accounts for several thousand less annual visitors. Grrrr

I've seen workers there in the past month doing work on the courts.

[K-slice]

You have to wonder if they assumed the city wasn't just out of money but was mismanaging the island and they could maintain it for a lot less money than they thought. As others have stated, there are a lot more activities -golf, water slides, playground equipment, tons of large picnics, etc. than a regular state park and along with aging infrastructure the upkeep is huge.

Most of those are gone, waterside removed, golf is gone, there's one playground that I know of, picnic areas consist of mowed fields of weeds.

The beach is a big draw in the summertime. It's frequently packed on weekends, even with the bathroom being a place I would never use.

Renovate what's there, make it the gem it should be, then look to adding more appropriate recreational opportunities for visitors.

And plant some more damn trees!!!

[ABetterDetroit]

I too expected far more capital improvements to the island by now. I was wrong. I remain unconvinced that the city could have done any better though. Detroit’s plate is still pretty damn full, there is no shortage of things that need renovation or investment throughout the neighborhoods citywide.

[Richard]

Most of those are gone, waterside removed, golf is gone, there's one playground that I know of, picnic areas consist of mowed fields of weeds.

The beach is a big draw in the summertime. It's frequently packed on weekends, even with the bathroom being a place I would never use.

Renovate what's there, make it the gem it should be, then look to adding more appropriate recreational opportunities for visitors.

And plant some more damn trees!!!

I am sure it was not originally built out as the end result,more so by adding things as time progressed.

Thats the problem,we think in the here and now while cities are in it for the long game,every time we make decisions based in the here and now it’s like a pair of scissors cutting another piece of the fabric out.

Look at all the negatives based on the here and now,slam highways through,tear down historic buildings for parking lots,yank up street car lines,destroying entire neighborhoods in the hopes of attracting commerce that never came.

It is spilled milk now but the city could have done the same thing it did in the beginning,little by little,but people were hoping for instant gratification in the park.

I think it could still be made into a star location like it was,I am just not convinced that the state has it in them to dedicate the focus it needs,because it is another park amongst others fighting for time and money.

I am kinda thinking it needs a dedicated board of volunteers overseeing the island in order to be able to give it the focus it needs.

I do not know enough about the other state parks but this seems to me anyways a massive undertaking in management and organization verses the other parks?

In all fairness on the states side,the last year or so would not count,but the previous 6 ?

Maybe the state needs help in the organization of it all?

[David L]

Neither the state report from 2020 or the Conservancy website provide any information about a general plan for the next time with a timetable and budget. Definitely on my wish list: Plant more trees especially evergreens and get the dead trees cleared out.

[casscorridor]

The State of Michigan is doing a great job on well-needed infrastructure updates and environmental remediation, but one thing severely lacking are some cafes, restaurants or other concessions. Why isn't there a cafe or a place for lunch next to the Conservatory and Aquarium?

I could think of at least three or four other places where such concessions could be added. Even small walk-up kiosks for ice cream and coffee in the summer time could make sense.

Existing structures could be repurposed or new structures built. The Casino could easily accommodate a full service restaurant during the day, when not used for weddings. I'm also thinking the huge Athletic Shelter would be great. And what about the derelict but still functioning boathouse?

[jcole]

As far as I know, the State doesn't run concessions in any of the state parks. They allow outside concessions come in and rent space to sell souvenirs and some type of food. Tahquamenon Falls at the Lower falls has a half empty building with some mugs, cheap jewelry, chips and hot dogs run by an outside company. Hartwick Pines has a book store in the welcome building as does the Porkie's state park. I think Upper Tahquamenon has a restaurant run by an outside company. Belle Isle is a State Park, they are probably running it like a normal State Park.

The State of Michigan is doing a great job on well-needed infrastructure updates and environmental remediation, but one thing severely lacking are some cafes, restaurants or other concessions. Why isn't there a cafe or a place for lunch next to the Conservatory and Aquarium?

I could think of at least three or four other places where such concessions could be added. Even small walk-up kiosks for ice cream and coffee in the summer time could make sense.

Existing structures could be repurposed or new structures built. The Casino could easily accommodate a full service restaurant during the day, when not used for weddings. I'm also thinking the huge Athletic Shelter would be great. And what about the derelict but still functioning boathouse?

[Vic01]

As far as I know, the State doesn't run concessions in any of the state parks. They allow outside concessions come in and rent space to sell souvenirs and some type of food. Tahquamenon Falls at the Lower falls has a half empty building with some mugs, cheap jewelry, chips and hot dogs run by an outside company. Hartwick Pines has a book store in the welcome building as does the Porkie's state park. I think Upper Tahquamenon has a restaurant run by an outside company. Belle Isle is a State Park, they are probably running it like a normal State Park.

So, could this be a business opportunity for some local entrepreneur to follow the vendor/rent process, add something of value to the community, and at the same time make some money?
If the added "cafes, restaurants or other concessions" or even an ice cream stand mentioned above are in demand, then I'd think that there's money to be made. I'd rather see it go toward a private small business than the State of Michigan.

[Richard]

So, could this be a business opportunity for some local entrepreneur to follow the vendor/rent process, add something of value to the community, and at the same time make some money?
If the added "cafes, restaurants or other concessions" or even an ice cream stand mentioned above are in demand, then I'd think that there's money to be made. I'd rather see it go toward a private small business than the State of Michigan.

I posted a link to the lease agreement between the city and state,page 2 reads that the park is to be operated in consistent with other state parks.

Thats the problem with Belle isle,it is nothing like other state parks.

The question is,can the state sub-lease parts of the park to private vendors,there does not appear to be an allowance for it in the city to state lease,outside of operating in a consistent manner as other state parks are.

If no other state parks have private vendor leases,then not likely.

Usually it takes legislative actions in order to pass a law for the park service to be able to sub lease public space,a strong case could be made for Belle isle.

Keep in mind that the park is leased to the park service,all the streets are under the control of MDOT.

So hypothetically speaking if you sub leased a restaurant space from the park service and the road and parking lot was trashed,you would have to wait until MDOT allocated the funds to fix them which could take years,considering they have a pothole list 17 miles long already.

The state park service is adept at running parks as public spaces,Belle isle needs to be run like a business which is not even in the scope of the park service.

I think the park service is pretty limited by budget restraints and lack of knowledge,not that it is their fault,but this is out of their realm.

To me anyways,until the City and Park service gets together with a state legislature representative and hash it out,it’s going to be a long 30 years and the isle will never see its full potential.

You have a couple of local representatives,but they are off on their own little agendas and tangents, so you are going to have to go up to the state level and email or speak to every single representative,until you find one that bites and is willing to take it on.

[Gistok]

Richard... you can swear by that document all you want... no one is going to notify any state representative just to tweak Belle Isle's changes... there are a lot of unique items on the island already that have many funding sources and ownerships... DYC, Detroit Rowing Club, the aquarium, conservatory and Dossin Museum.

Then there's the Belle Isle Conservancy that do things for the park that no other Michigan state park has done for them. Here is the scope of the Belle Isle Conservancy that goes above and beyond state control...

https://www.belleisleconservancy.org/

[southen]

A private company already does kayak and canoe rentals out of the Flynn Pavilion. Oudolf Garden Detroit finished a privately funded garden with its' own endowment last year. There are examples of private entities working on the island in concert with the DNR. As Gistok mentioned, the Belle Isle Conservancy also plays a large role on the island unlike other state parks.

[Richard]

Richard... you can swear by that document all you want... no one is going to notify any state representative just to tweak Belle Isle's changes... there are a lot of unique items on the island already that have many funding sources and ownerships... DYC, Detroit Rowing Club, the aquarium, conservatory and Dossin Museum.

Then there's the Belle Isle Conservancy that do things for the park that no other Michigan state park has done for them. Here is the scope of the Belle Isle Conservancy that goes above and beyond state control...

https://www.belleisleconservancy.org/

You can act like that document is toilet paper all you want but it is a legally binding contract,if you read it,it clearly states that the state has zero obligation to honor any pre-existing groups or organizations at any time.

You posted that they go above and beyond the states control,the state is the lease holder,nobody is above that.

All you have to do is show me the legal document that gives anybody legal rights to do anything at that park outside of how it is spelled out in the lease,until you can provide that,it does not matter what anybody is currently doing there,the state can pull the rug out at any given time.

I have provided you with the lease as a fact,I did not make it up.

You keep coming back with everything under the sun except for the one thing that you need,the legal binding document that spells out the terms between the state and existing enterprises operating on the island.

Until you can do that,you can fund raise to fix something up and there is nothing that prevents the state from saying,meh we do not like it.

It is supposed to be public knowledge,just as the lease was between the city and state,but it is nowhere to be found,I am sure you can provide it,because the public does have a right to know.

It is also as a state park,a public space that is now supported by the entire state taxpayer base,the rest of the state is going to want to know why their local parks are not receiving the same attention.

You have to have those answers,and saying screw that lease is not providing those answers.

The conservatory keeps referring to the city of Detroit,the city of Detroit legally has zero to do with the park,nobody can do park business in behalf of the city of Detroit,or represent it,the city is the lessor and that is the end of it.

Its not that I do not want to see the park reach it’s full potential,I have always believed it was an important part of the fabric of the city that was ripped away needlessly,but it is going to be even worse if it continues on half baked,nothing in today’s society operates without legally binding documents in order to protect everybody.

Not crossing the Ts and dotting the Is is what brought you here to this stage in the first place,why keep on doing it?

Gistok,you cannot argue with the lease terms,put it in front of a judge and I would highly doubt it would be considered a worthless document,if you think it is worthless and has no standing,throw it away and the city can say they are taking it back,I would be all for that.

Because at least if the city wanted to lease to private vendors they could tomorrow.

You always have to look at things that can come back and bite you in the ass later,that part in the lease that spells out that the park must be operated in a consistent manner as every other state park and you and the poster after you, have presented examples where it is clearly not.

Somebody,someday, is going to use that if they see it is advantageous.

I am not there as you are not but when the city of Detroit starts talking about a $50 million dollar wishlist going towards the park,the residents deserve a bit more then,trust me to throw $50 million into a black hole,when they are driving over potholes and past burnt out buildings.

At that time you are also asking the residents to support a park with tax dollars in addition to added $50 million for a state park that they have little control over,that’s not fair,what was the point of leasing it out because they could not afford to fix it,while still paying to fix it,then that silly little lease pops up again where the city has zero obligation to spend any money on it,let alone can do so legally.

For some reason,the only thing the city retains rights over are the green houses.

Everything that is improved or rehabilitated is going to incur increased yearly maintenance costs,costs that the state taxpayers will bear,they have a right to know.

Everything else is subject to the whim of the state,unless it is accompanied by a legally binding contract between the state and organization.

Post it here.

Its been 8 years.