Windsor population rises to 229, 660, Lakeshore cracks 40,000

[Margaret's boy]

From Today's Windsor Star:

"The City of Windsor grew from 217,188 people in 2016 to 229,600 in 2021, a 5.7 per cent increase, according to just-released census data that shows the city growing briskly after decades of stagnation, retraction and plodding growth.
As a region, Windsor/Essex County and Pelee Island increased by six per cent or 23,907, the equivalent of adding another Tecumseh or Amherstburg to the mix. Total population, which had sat at 398, 953, is now well over the 400,000 mark at 422,860.
Lakeshore experienced the biggest growth, from 36,661 to 40,410 , or a 10.4 per cent increase.
Until the most recent census, Windsor's population didn't rise much beyond the 209, 000 recorded in the early 1970's. It actually dropped during the 2008-2011 recession as people moved for jobs to Alberta."

The down-side to all this growth? Windsor-Essex's unemployment rate was 8.2 per cent in January 2022, up 1.2 per cent from the previous month. There were 1,300 more full-time jobs in 2022 compared to a month earlier but a loss of 1,700 part time jobs led to a decrease of 400 total jobs in January. The number of self-employed people moving here from the Greater Toronto Area accounts for almost all the growth.

[Henry Whalley]

Windsor was a fantastic place before the casino ruined much of the charm downtown. The casino also ruined Detroit's Greektown.

[Gistok]

They really should include that 422,000+ folks in the Metro Detroit population count. NYC includes cities in NJ, Philadelphia includes parts of NJ as well. I guess since the US Census doesn't count them... well you know...

[Satiricalivory]

They really should include that 422,000+ folks in the Metro Detroit population count. NYC includes cities in NJ, Philadelphia includes parts of NJ as well. I guess since the US Census doesn't count them... well you know...

Some people will get butthurt about that. They can't handle the real size of the region.

[Richard]

What are the metrics behind that shift ?

Housing prices in Toronto verses Windsor,the politics of it ?

If it is mostly self employed surly they could of commanded a higher rate in Toronto verses Windsor unless Windsor has a less restrictive business climate.

The last years in the states has also had a large population shift,politics plays a large part of it but even more so is the affordable housing aspect.


We have people selling thier 800k house up north and moving south and buying a $400k house that is twice the size,but unlike in Windsors case it is not really effecting the unemployment rate,just pushing the lower middle to lower income levels out of housing options.

What are the majority occupations of the self employed?

I can see if they are involved in the skilled trades and with the history of Detroit/Windsor relationship and taking into account all of the upcoming projects slated in Detroit in the middle of a skilled trade labor shortage,are they legally able to cross border and work in Detroit even if it is in the role as a sub contractor working under a Detroit licensed contractor?

I am looking for the rationale of being self employed and moving to a city with a high unemployment rate,where you would have to lower your rates in order to compete versus a city like Toronto.

I think breaking down the occupation of the majority self employed would answer a lot more questions as to motive.

[401don]

What are the metrics behind that shift ?

Housing prices in Toronto verses Windsor,the politics of it ?

If it is mostly self employed surly they could of commanded a higher rate in Toronto verses Windsor unless Windsor has a less restrictive business climate.

The last years in the states has also had a large population shift,politics plays a large part of it but even more so is the affordable housing aspect.


We have people selling thier 800k house up north and moving south and buying a $400k house that is twice the size,but unlike in Windsors case it is not really effecting the unemployment rate,just pushing the lower middle to lower income levels out of housing options.

What are the majority occupations of the self employed?

I can see if they are involved in the skilled trades and with the history of Detroit/Windsor relationship and taking into account all of the upcoming projects slated in Detroit in the middle of a skilled trade labor shortage,are they legally able to cross border and work in Detroit even if it is in the role as a sub contractor working under a Detroit licensed contractor?

I am looking for the rationale of being self employed and moving to a city with a high unemployment rate,where you would have to lower your rates in order to compete versus a city like Toronto.

I think breaking down the occupation of the majority self employed would answer a lot more questions as to motive.

I don't think it's self-employed, as in skilled trades. It's a combination of self-employed and other white collar i.e. work from home and retirees as well as others moving for the cheap housing compared to the GTA. It used to be you could move 20-30 miles outside the GTA for cheaper housing but that's no longer the case. It hasn't affected the unemployment rate much as Windsor has had a couple of points higher unemployment for years. Toronto is at about 6.5 per cent unemployment vs. 8.5 in Windsor but keep in mind Canada calculates unemployment differently than the U.S. making it appear somewhat higher.

[Richard]

^ thanks

So it is the same everywhere,I was looking at 3-5 acres in that 20-30 mile range by me during the pandemic,with a fixer upper they were in the $40-$60k range,now it is $350-$450k range and the structure if needing repairs is not even considered having value,just the dirt.

The saying of things are cheaper in the country has been altered by WFH,unless you go into the middle of nowhere a want a 2 hour commute,country property is bringing the same rates as in town.

That part Kinda scares me though and makes me wonder what happens if WFH falls out of favor,there are going to be a lot of people stuck in places with little employment opportunities and no way to dump their property if there is no demand.

[401don]

GTA housing prices are crazy. I paid 550,000 for a 1500 ft. suburban town home built in 1975 3 yrs. ago. The 1st unit to cross the one million dollar mark sold in the complex last month. If the wife would move I'd buy a nice ranch house outside the area and pocket 300,000 in a heartbeat.

[Margaret's boy]

According to one local developer, Peter Valente, about 80 per cent of the people buying homes in a giant brand-new development in the Town of Essex, close the Highway 3, which the province of Ontario is expanding from two to four lanes from Essex to Leamington, are "self-employed" people from the GTA cities like Brampton and Mississauga, largely independent truckers who own and operate their own rigs.

[Richard]

^ that makes sense considering what is going on,rates in the US have gone up,an $800 load is now paying up to $2000,they could pick up a load,cross border and collect another return stateside and be able to spend more family time while making more money.

I had family members that were OTR independent truckers in the 70s,they really did not make a lot of money,probably in the lower middle class range,but they also lived in a majority trucker subdivision of sorts because there was the support of other families close by while the husbands were in the road for extended amounts of time.

There was a shift in the industry back then to eliminate a lot of independents ,so they got out of it,which created the shortage we see today,but with the rates of today one can make some serious money if they hustle,but that is being in the road 24/7 and away from your family up to weeks at a time,it’s a hard way to make a living,if you are single it’s perfect.

Not to go in another direction with the thread but independent truckers are like that because of a free spirit thing,which is why they remain independent and no surprise as to the camaraderie we see today and why they would gather together in a specific subdivision,they are used to looking out for each other as a means of survival.

[Richard]

GTA housing prices are crazy. I paid 550,000 for a 1500 ft. suburban town home built in 1975 3 yrs. ago. The 1st unit to cross the one million dollar mark sold in the complex last month. If the wife would move I'd buy a nice ranch house outside the area and pocket 300,000 in a heartbeat.

What are your property taxes like comparatively,I am on a tax cap if 3%,I pay $500 per year verses neighbors paying $2-$5k,my non homestead property in Kissimmee taxes went up from $1800 a year to $3500 in 2 years.

They say here locally that prices have gone up because of the demand from northerners moving down,but I live in one of the largest counties in the state,there are zero air BNB regulations,you do not even have to register with the county like you have to do if you are renting it out locally.

They are making $1500-$2000 a week on Air BNB,a lot of houses have been pulled off market,my boat sleeps 6,I could Air BNB that att to the same rates,it is insane.

Everywhere you look they are throwing up 200 - 500 unit apartment buildings with 1 bedroom at $1500 and they are full on completion.

Here and depending on how close you are to the water,with property taxes and hurricane insurance,it is not uncommon to pay $15k a year in taxes and insurance and that puts you 30 minutes to the water.

[Danny]

Detroit's pop. 630,000
Windsor's pop 229,600

Looks like the population scales are about to tip over the left.

There are lots of speedy housing development over by the east side of Windsor.

[DetBill]

Well were not really comparing apples to apples, metro Detroit, and you really do need to look at the whole region, is well over 4 1/4 million, metropolitan Windsor is may be 350,000+ not including the farther areas of Essex County who are 20+ miles away from Windsor proper. The two areas are not even close in size or population. Yes the real estate values are pretty crazy, my family is still in Windsor, I’m from there originally, and the new town houses that were built across the street from them 2 1/2 years ago they were 525,000 , which at the time I thought was expensive, they are now being re-sold for 775,000, just two years later. It was posted that the average real estate home sale transaction in January 2022 was close to $630,000. That of course is Canadian dollars, which is approx. US$475,000. And you have to remember in that figure Windsor has a ton of very small older housing, often referred to as wartime houses, or bungalows that were built in the 1920s and 1930s and 1940s, and it’s basically fairly old smaller housing. A real eye-opener, was the villages of Riverside, and when they were built in the 1970s, were actually considered to be very low level housing, and sold in the high $20,000, I just noticed on zolo .ca, that one just sold for $400,000, they were built very cheaply in the 1970s I can’t imagine the condition of it now 50 years later. It’s rather scary seeing the rate of increase of real estate in Windsor, and as mentioned above, the exodus from metro Toronto along with several other factors seems to be contributing heavily to it. The only problem of course, as everyone knows, anyone who just makes an average 60 to 70,000 a year, and trying to enter the market to buy their first home, basically can’t even buy a home and save the down payment, unless they get help from someone to do that.

[Richard]

In St Petersburg a developer that was building a condo high rise was being interviewed,the condos will sell for $600k for a 2 bedroom with a $600 per month condo fee,there were protestors talking about being priced out.

He told them,when downtown was cheap and affordable nobody wanted to live there,now that millions have been spent fixing it up,everybody wants to live there at the prices that are market value now.

I actually have little sympathy for most of those priced out of the market,reason being is most that are complaining about it demand what traditionally has increased value in homes,they are expecting a nice neighborhood,good schools,everybody has perfect landscaping and the house has to be brand new with all the latest gadgets and everything top end.

If they cannot have that then they are priced out.

It was no different then back in the day when it comes to housing,I bought a 1910 two story house that was 16 bedrooms in Downtown Tampa,Ybor city which was the cigar manufacturing center back then.

The house was 16 bedrooms because that was all it had,the bathroom was added on to the back,no kitchen,no dining room etc. just bedrooms.

It was built like that back in those times for the single cigar factory workers,they rented a bedroom cheap,saved their money and then bought their own house,nobody wants to sacrifice anymore in order to get what they want,they want it now.

When the market crashed and I moved to Tampa,I bought 3 houses for $6000 all early 1900s that needed work,but anybody that even worked at 7-11 could have afforded to buy a house for $2k and with a little sweat equity be living in a paid for house.

Nobody wanted them because it was considered in the hood or ghetto,I have been here going on 8 years,never been robbed,stolen from or even had to shoot anybody,there is actually more crime in the desirable parts of town then here.

They are pushing $200k or higher now but if somebody had lowered their expectations for a few years there was perfect options to build equity in order to build up to different housing.

People are looking at buying starter homes at $400k,they cannot afford it but walk right past the $200k home that is the same sqft but does not have granite counter tops.

When the market was crazy in Orlando 2005 ish,the Hispanics who are more family oriented were buying 5 bedroom homes,by combining family members,the parents and a son or daughter with their children would both kick in for the down payment and share costs.

I have rebuilt a lot of vintage early 1900s homes that had a separate room on the back or studio or garage that was converted into an apartment in order for the owner to rent out to make ends meet,home ownership has always been an issue for lower income.

The thing is today the prices in Windsor and Detroit,they will never be that price again,people say that is crazy I am not paying that but as you guys are seeing if they are not buying now at that price,they certainly will not be buying at any price in a couple of more years.