Seed Money Granted for Expanding New Center Amtrak Station into Transportation Hub

[Lowell]

The long-needed union of bus, train and other forms of public transport appears to finally be in motion. Good read in todays's Free Press...

"The Biden administration has announced a $10 million grant - money not connected to the recently passed $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill - to help fund the Michigan Department of Transportation's longtime goal of building a new train station.

The aim is a station that would not only provide a more fitting gateway to the Motor City for rail passengers but one that would also bring other modes of transportation, including buses operated by Greyhound and Indian Trails, taxi and ride-hailing services such as Lyft and Uber, as well as bikesharing, into a centralized hub just west of Woodward Avenue."

https://freep-mi.newsmemory.com?publ...055b8d_1346031

[Richard]

That’s interesting,what is covered under the term seed grant?

States receive between 6 to 800 million on a average per year in transportation funding,so here is 10 million - before the yearly funding and before the infrastructure allotment.

The 10 million is chump change in comparison with additional taxes having to be levied to cover the other $50 million.

I wonder if this grant is there to set things in motion in order to qualify for the infrastructure grant,as in shovel ready thinking.

Granted it is needed but the way things are going with price increases,53 million is going to be 75 or 80 million by the time shovels hit the dirt.

I wonder if it is more feasible, because of low interest rates, for the city to fund it with a bond verses a forever tax increase on a already taxed citizens so when it is paid for it is paid for and the taxpayers are using OPM instead of their own while sticking the other 53 million into another transit line.

[JonWylie]

That’s interesting,what is covered under the term seed grant?

States receive between 6 to 800 million on a average per year in transportation funding,so here is 10 million - before the yearly funding and before the infrastructure allotment.

The 10 million is chump change in comparison with additional taxes having to be levied to cover the other $50 million.

I wonder if this grant is there to set things in motion in order to qualify for the infrastructure grant,as in shovel ready thinking.

Granted it is needed but the way things are going with price increases,53 million is going to be 75 or 80 million by the time shovels hit the dirt.

I wonder if it is more feasible, because of low interest rates, for the city to fund it with a bond verses a forever tax increase on a already taxed citizens so when it is paid for it is paid for and the taxpayers are using OPM instead of their own while sticking the other 53 million into another transit line.

This is all the Freep article says about that

The federal grant money will not pay for the whole project, so the state will still need to provide the rest of the approximately $57 million total estimated price tag, with gas tax revenue and registration fees a possible source.

[Richard]

Yes I understand that,but we all know the future of the gas tax,when we talk about 53 million today,that is a long term commitment on payback based on a tax that will continue to dwindle,at least by 30% 2030.

Kinda of an example,the refrigerant that I was paying $180 for 6 months ago is now $485 and will go up another $200 come January,that increase was 100% taxes,the price of the actual product is still the same.

Public transportation will need to increase because by the time EVs become mainstream they will be bearing the brunt of transportation taxes which will make them unaffordable to the average or low income city dweller who is already seeing a increase in COL.

We can only tax stuff so much before it becomes a luxury verses necessity,Ray LaHood under the first Obama administration was actually the first one in a long time and what we have not seen sense,that was really serious about addressing transportation needs,that is what helped the Qline becoming a reality.

There is a whole 55 gallon barrel filled with new taxes coming down the pike,we need to step up mass transit options,but I think sticking in today’s outlook of it can be paid back in gas taxes is going to come back to bite really hard 5 years down the road.

The new bridge was based on increased auto manufacturers increased movement as a way to pay for it,that’s not happening,so it will have to be paid for by increasing the gas tax.

We need to step up the mass transit game,by a lot,but we also need to become creative as to how it is accomplished,we will be looking at transferring that commitment over to EV owners,which is already billions in legacy,otherwise you may be able to buy an EV for $30,000 in 2030 but you will be paying 20,000 a year just to be able to drive it in taxes alone.

We have to remember,this $53 million,Detroiters will be paying it back for another 25 years on top of everything else that comes along.

[Gistok]

^ Um no... the state of Michigan often taps the Michigan Natural Resources Fund for a lot of money for these type of projects. They have over $500 million in unspent oil & gas lease money in the bank.

[renf]

I hope this is the start of a new and modern transportation system for the Detroit area and Michigan. The benefits of an efficient commuter rail system in metro Detroit and southeast Michigan will far exceed the costs.
And linking the Detroit area by rail with Grand Rapids, Traverse City and
Makinaw City would be a stimulus for the state's badly needed economic growth.

[Richard]

^ Um no... the state of Michigan often taps the Michigan Natural Resources Fund for a lot of money for these type of projects. They have over $500 million in unspent oil & gas lease money in the bank.

Then they are the dumbest state leaders in history of the world if they have $500 million of unspent money sitting in the bank.

My guess is they not that dumb and the $500 million is invested in vehicles that pay a lot higher interest rates then a bank,then they use that interest to fund things while not touching the principle.

So when they do that they do not walk down to the bank and draw cash out,otherwise they would be hit with fees.

So they most likely use those vehicles as collateral to borrow money against it and pay back a higher interest rate then they were making on it.

If the economy crashes that $500 million is not worth $500 million,in the bigger picture of the state that $500 million is peanuts and sense the oil and gas industry is being pushed out,how do you propose to renew those funds?

ThatÂ’s like somebody saying somebody is a billionaire,they can afford it,itÂ’s paper and not cash on hand.

If there was an unrestricted $500 million in cash sitting in a bank account in Michigan,you can bet it would have been gone long ago.

In the eyes of a state or city,2030 is tomorrow,that is when you will be losing over 30% of your revenue,that is a heck of a lot more then $500 million,there is going to be fallout and those who depend on transportation are going to take the biggest hit,while depending on it even more.

That is why now is the time to address it,or bury ones head in the stand because the lesson of waiting until it is to late was not learned the first time.

You do remember what happened in the city and state when the auto industry crashed and nobody had pre planned or read the writing on the wall, correct?

ThatÂ’s kinda what these discussions are all about,looking at the past and working towards not repeating them in the future.

For the first time in over 10 years Detroit cannot claim the highest poverty rate in the country,what do you think will happen if you remove the mobility options of 30% or more in the city over the next 10 years without having a plan in place?

Start from scratch again, while throwing away all the hard work that everybody has been putting into the city in order to climb up out of that hole?

Today is already history in the city,you have to think 5-10-20 years into the future.

For those capable of reading more then 3 lines,here is a study put out by the University of Michigan back in 2012,at a time before anybody could have even dreamed of being laser focused on EVs no matter what the costs.

It is 55 pages of the impact of what is coming and concerns that need to be addressed.

https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/25139/dot_25139_DS1.pdf

It will not be gas tax,it will be mileage based and registration renewal based on how many miles traveled,how much does one pay for a registration renewal on a yearly basis now?

In the city,how about paying that for every 3000 miles traveled,it will be like what is happening in the city now,the less people putting into it the more you have to charge those who are,which creates the cycle of less people being able to afford to put in the system.

Detroit knows that cycle as a hard economics lesson,no sense in repeating it.

Currently Michigan department of transportation spends 85% on roads and 15% on mass transit.

In the future of you have 40% of the population unable to be transportation self sufficient,what are you going to do?

Spend billions now on the future road less traveled or start building the rails that you know people will have no choice but to use?

We have to remember,the politicians operate on a four year cycle,they will do what it takes to remain popular for those four years,us peons,we are still here and have to live with the results,they do not care about what happens after their time in office,we have to hold them to the rails and get results.

We are spending trillions in order to get and support people driving electric cars and improving the roads for them to drive on,less people driving on them.

Then they say - Meh here’s 10 million towards getting people not to even have to drive a car in the first place.

I mean it is good that they are taking that step but in the future bigger picture of things,it’s like putting change in a parking meter.

[Burnsie]

I ...
And linking the Detroit area by rail with Grand Rapids, Traverse City and
Makinaw City would be a stimulus for the state's badly needed economic growth.

Unfortunately after various abandonments, Mackinaw City is now 36 miles from the nearest Lower Peninsula railroad.

[Gistok]

Then they are the dumbest state leaders in history of the world if they have $500 million of unspent money sitting in the bank.

My guess is...

Geeze Richard... you know next to nothing about the State Strategic Fund, and "in the bank" can have so many different meanings... [go look up "metaphor"]... but that never stopped you from going off into long winded tangents.

[Richard]

Geeze Richard... you know next to nothing about the State Strategic Fund, and "in the bank" can have so many different meanings... [go look up "metaphor"]... but that never stopped you from going off into long winded tangents. :eek:

You posted that the state has $500 million from oil and gas lease revenue and that can be used to offset reduced the gasoline tax.

https://www.house.mi.gov/hfa/PDF/Env...ies_5-2010.pdf

Read that long winded part that the funds are voter approved and constitutionally protected to be used only for protection of environmental lands and parks and recreation.

IE: it is a fund that sells natural resources in order to protect the remaining natural resources only.


Then you tell me that I know nothing about the fund?

At least I can take the time to learn before telling others they know nothing.

It is clearly spelled out that the principal cannot be used,so it is not $500 million for use,it is the interest that the $500 million generates that is available.

Oil and gas leases peaked in 2000 and have been on a downward spiral sense.

So in order to move forward before getting knocked back in the future, got any solutions on how to fund future mass transit not dependent on a disappearing revenue base?

You did not answer the question of,if 15% of the funding for mass transit is received from the current gas tax what happens in the future when that revenue is reduced by 30 to 50 % ?

That 30 to 50% reduction has to be made up by implementing a tax on EVs,which force the cost of operating them out of reach of the lower income,which will increase demand on public transportation,a service that will not be there.

I posted the current investment ratio is 85% 15% ,there needs to be a switch to funding mass transit at a higher level now,otherwise you will give even more reason to leave the state based simply on the ability to be mobile enough to get groceries.

If all of this is really about saving the planet,they need to be using the same gusto that they used to mobilize single use towards demobilization where people are not car dependent period.

You can red herring all you want ,but that is the same exact same stance that is being taken in cities across Europe.

When you are ready to throw trillions into remaining automobile eccentric,10 million is a joke of a commitment towards mass transit options.

Where are all of your local representatives that were in front of the cameras 24/7 under the guise of protecting the best interests of the citizens,are they on vacation now?

This is a massive elephant in the room and all there is …. Crickets.

[kuuma]

I would love to see a new Baltimore Station be a chance to activate that stretch of rail for a new local line. There's a great chance to connect a line for local stops with a connection at the Amtrak station to the QLine.

There isn't that much Amtrak activity throughout the day and a local line should easily be able to to share the tracks. Imagine stops in Springwells, Southwest, Trumbull/Lincoln, and Hamtramck. Suddenly there are like 80,000 people with transit access to get downtown/midtown, all without adding new rail lines at all!

[Richard]

^ considering a majority of Amtrak’s runs are on shared rails,that is an interesting thought and maybe a viable private line enterprise.

Would have to find out who owns those rails,they will expect their cut and always retain priority use which may or may not effect scheduling.

I have traveled on Amtrak’s profitable line in the NE ,there were just as many that used it for short runs as low as 3 miles,it also may be a plan that can be brought to their attention.

What is clear is if people do not take the initiative others will not.