New Amtrak New Center station info?

**Burnsie** · August-10-21, 09:31 PM

Crain's within the past 8 hours posted a story with the headline "MDOT held a meeting with developers about..." [[the rest of the headline is behind the paywall) and there's a photo of the Amtrak station. I know that for many years MDOT has eyed the southwest corner of where Woodward goes under the tracks for a new station.

Can any Crain's subscriber tell us briefly what the most important part of the story is? Thanks!

**JonWylie** · August-11-21, 08:56 AM

MDOT has explored private development on the property as a way to offset some of the $36 million to $45 million cost expected for the intermodal facility, which would conceptually include passenger rail, bus, and local and microtransit services, replacing both the Amtrak station and the MDOT-owned bus facility on Howard Street near the Lodge Freeway.

**kuuma** · August-11-21, 09:45 AM

this is exciting. i wonder if, by including the Howard St. bus station by the Lodge downtown, if they're thinking about a transit connection between that location and the New Center Station?

Would be really great to see that rail overpass over the Lodge modified to send a new line parallel down the Lodge, maybe by using a lane of the freeway, or building an elevated line over the freeway.

Then again they may just be flipping the bus station to a private dev to free up some cash for the reno. idk, my imagination is running without reading the full article

**expatriate** · August-11-21, 10:52 AM

How cool would it be to return the station to Michigan Central? I'm sure Ford has no use for the train shed part of the station and the entire project could benefit with the addition of more foot traffic and the injection of MDOT money were they to be tenants. In San Francisco, the Ferry Building is a thriving marketplace, but still acts as a terminal for many ferries that traverse that bay. It even serves for the Amtrak shuttles.

**Richard** · August-11-21, 11:12 AM

^ agreed,the argument that is out in the middle of nowhere will soon no longer apply.

Regardless of what happens or where,this is a serious step moving forward,they got close to a billion coming in,so if a few potholes get fixed and this comes to life,that is really a major step moving forward.

**Burnsie** · August-11-21, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by JonWylie

Thank you! The train station looks bigger but not by much. There needs to be reserved space for at least a couple of dedicated passenger sidings and platforms if this site ends up remaining the sole Detroit passenger station. The main impression I get from this plan is...more parking ramps. I know that bus facilities have to be included with rail nowadays to get federal money, but the rail facility looks like an afterthought here. Same single platform and reliance on stopping on the main line, shared by freights.

**casscorridor** · August-11-21, 12:27 PM

I hope that any new station will include two platforms and could accommodate a potential high frequency commuter rail line from Pontiac to Ann Arbor via Metro Airport.

**Burnsie** · August-11-21, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by expatriate

How cool would it be to return the station to Michigan Central? I'm sure Ford has no use for the train shed part of the station

The Crain's illustration indicates that MDOT is moving ahead with plans for a new station at the New Center. Since MDOT largely pays for Amtrak in Michigan, Amtrak will passively accept wherever MDOT wants the station to be. When push comes to shove, Ford is a vehicle company that wants people to drive its vehicles to and from the station. It's not going to go out of its way to build an Amtrak facility there. If some other entity wants to pay for it, Ford might go along, but I don't see anyone stepping up in the foreseeable future.

Any Amtrak waiting room at MC Depot would probably be a small thing built in the basement or by the tracks. That's been the case at most large terminals where Amtrak has moved back in- Cincinnati and Kansas City come to mind. Renderings released indicate some sort of vehicle testing thing built along most of the old platform area. Amtrak would probably stop at a track at the far southern edge by the freight tracks, maybe just use those.

**royce** · August-11-21, 01:31 PM

So, MDOT owns the Greyhound terminal? I know MDOT has offices in a building just south of the Greyhound station but that's on Fort. Also, I'm not understanding the diagram. First, it appears that the current Amtrak Station would expand and eliminate the current parking lot around it. I understand that. However, the building next to the station is an old parking garage and car wash. So, MDOT is planning on tearing down that structure and build something else? What would that be? Now, the transit center, bus terminal, and parking garage are all inside the blue building south of the rail tracks.

My confusion is this: Do they plan on having the bus terminal on the south side of the tracks and the Amtrak station on the north side of the tracks? Which means passengers for bus will have one terminal and passengers for train will have another? If that's the case, then that's just dumb. There should be one terminal for both bus and train passengers. Where the old parking deck is, next to the current train station, is where the busses should go to be boarded. Help me out if I've got this wrong.

**royce** · August-11-21, 01:37 PM

Oh, wait. So, the south building will only house the busses and the passengers for both will use one transit center, right?

**Jason** · August-11-21, 02:18 PM

The platform seems to be longer than the current platform. Otherwise as far as I can tell this is functionally the same as the current train station except for having a nicer indoor waiting area. The real improvement seems to be for the intercity buses, this is a much better location.

I've thought before about what a good new station would be like.

The rails would be rebuilt so that you could use the space beneath them. The level below the rails would be a little lower than street level at Baltimore but would be more like street level at Woodward [[with the way Woodard and Cass dip down to get under the tracks). There would be enough platforms and through tracks to accommodate Amtrack, freight, and commuter rail. The platforms would be as enclosed as possible, considering that the trains are not electric.

The corner of Woodward and Baltimore would be an outdoor plaza that transitions from street level to the lower level. The corner of Cass and Baltimore would be a hotel tower.

Along Woodward right under the platforms would be the train station stuff, the fare zone and escalators and elevators going up to the platforms. Underneath the platforms along Cass and under the hotel would be a food court with some convenience stores and typical train station amenities.

The southern half of the site would be bus loops. They would be accessed from the lower level with stairs and escalators, as well as an elevator which would also be used by the parking garage, which would be above.

Some of these thoughts have also included a People Mover extension to New Center. The elevated guideway would go north along Cass, and jog over to Woodward above the station. All of the DDOT and SMART routes that pass by [[Dexter, etc.) would terminate here. Replacing their downtown/midtown sections with the People Mover would be cheaper to operate, and it would be faster and more reliable for passengers.

**Hypestyles** · August-11-21, 02:57 PM

I hope something is done soon to expand the facilities. Could be nice.

**Burnsie** · August-11-21, 04:23 PM

The rendering does indicate the platform extending east a little past its current end at the west side of the Woodward bridge. But it would have to be cantilevered out from the bridge for that to happen, or the bridge rebuilt [[doubtful).

**ShadowSoarer** · August-11-21, 09:29 PM

Ideally would've liked a proper commuter rail at the Michigan Central Station to DTW kind of like how Denver has a commuter rail from Union Station on the outer edge of Downtown to DEN which is about the same distance as Downtown Detroit to DTW. In addition there are tons of new developments around Union Station from Google Maps.

Although this is a good start for a more transient-oriented development. Building around existing stations to increase ridership.

This is a good video from Cheddar on public transit in America:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZDZtBRTyeI&t=468s

**KnnNike** · August-19-21, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Burnsie

The Crain's illustration indicates that MDOT is moving ahead with plans for a new station at the New Center. Since MDOT largely pays for Amtrak in Michigan, Amtrak will passively accept wherever MDOT wants the station to be. When push comes to shove, Ford is a vehicle company that wants people to drive its vehicles to and from the station. It's not going to go out of its way to build an Amtrak facility there. If some other entity wants to pay for it, Ford might go along, but I don't see anyone stepping up in the foreseeable future.

Any Amtrak waiting room at MC Depot would probably be a small thing built in the basement or by the tracks. That's been the case at most large terminals where Amtrak has moved back in- Cincinnati and Kansas City come to mind. Renderings released indicate some sort of vehicle testing thing built along most of the old platform area. Amtrak would probably stop at a track at the far southern edge by the freight tracks, maybe just use those.

That's a bit of a red herring argument though. Ford had no need to go to that building in the first place - they could've built their new campus out in the suburbs for a fraction of the cost. Instead they chose to reinvest in the city for PR purposes...with that in mind, I'm struggling to understand why they wouldn't want to spend a few more % in the project budget to lure MDOT/Amtrak back to MCS, with the goal of getting thousands of people walking by their logos every single day?

This decision makes no sense, other than some idiots in Lansing don't give a shit about Detroit, and are just trying to do something as cheaply/easily as possible.

**Satiricalivory** · August-19-21, 03:59 PM

Ford has said several times that they're more than open to having Amtrak back at the station and Amtrak seems to already be interested.

**masterblaster** · August-21-21, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by KnnNike

That's a bit of a red herring argument though. Ford had no need to go to that building in the first place - they could've built their new campus out in the suburbs for a fraction of the cost. Instead they chose to reinvest in the city for PR purposes...with that in mind, I'm struggling to understand why they wouldn't want to spend a few more % in the project budget to lure MDOT/Amtrak back to MCS, with the goal of getting thousands of people walking by their logos every single day?

This decision makes no sense, other than some idiots in Lansing don't give a shit about Detroit, and are just trying to do something as cheaply/easily as possible.

The Feds/MDOT can blow billions on adding lanes to I-75, can blow billions on adding lanes to I-94, but can't spend a dime to build rail line so that we have a rail/transportation hub in downtown proper or at least at the Michigan Central Station. Having your Amtrak and commuter rail hub 3 miles north of downtown IS JUST PLAIN STUPID!!

**401don** · August-21-21, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by KnnNike

That's a bit of a red herring argument though. Ford had no need to go to that building in the first place - they could've built their new campus out in the suburbs for a fraction of the cost. Instead they chose to reinvest in the city for PR purposes...

I don't think it was for PR. Ford stated they were moving there to attract talent. Young creative people want an urban environment, not some office campus in the burbs like their existing hq.

**Burnsie** · August-22-21, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

Ford has said several times that they're more than open to having Amtrak back at the station and Amtrak seems to already be interested.

Yes, but MDOT would be the party that pays for it, and clearly they're moving ahead with staying at the New Center. I know it sucks-- Detroit is plenty big enough to be the terminus. But to play devil's advocate, Royal Oak-Troy-Pontiac served a combined 8,132 passengers in Dec. 2019, more than Detroit and second only to Kalamazoo. It'd be very hard politically for MDOT to just drop those cities, and to keep serving them plus MC Depot would involve a time consuming backup move. There has never been a city in Michigan that has been dropped from Amtrak since it started 50 years ago. You can't really say Birmingham was, since the new Troy station is across the tracks and the platform is still in Birmingham.

Obviously there would be a logistical reckoning if Amtrak did extend a train to Toronto.

**Satiricalivory** · August-22-21, 08:26 PM

I don't think MDOT has a choice if Amtrak's main goal here is a train to Toronto. Which they already confirmed they wanna do.

**Jason** · August-22-21, 09:05 PM

My recollection with the Toronto service is that some trains from Chicago would go to Toronto and some would go to Pontiac. So if you wanted to go from Detroit to Toronto you would have to go to Dearborn first.

**Burnsie** · August-22-21, 09:37 PM

A Detroit train to Toronto, to quote a line from "Annie Hall," "right now it's only a notion, but I think I can get money to make it into a concept, and later, turn it into an idea."

It *might* have a chance if the infrastructure bill passes the House.

**bartocktoo** · August-23-21, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

I don't think it was for PR. Ford stated they were moving there to attract talent. Young creative people want an urban environment, not some office campus in the burbs like their existing hq.

Dearborn isn't urban? It's more urban than most parts of Detroit.

**Zacha341** · August-23-21, 09:39 AM

^ I'd have to agree having worked there for over 15 years and for FOMOCO back in the day. Dearborn's odd [in a nice way] have clusters of businesses with huge parcels of land around them. Such as FOMOCO head quarters [with its sunflower patch] and nearby buildings flanking Mercury/ Hubbard Dr. I've seen deer grazing as close as Evergreen and Michigan!

The Rouge river influenced a great deal of where things were built initially and how close... Then you have Rotunda and other streets with all of those industrial buildings spread out on large lots of land. And you have the Ford Estates and Greenfield Village. Those areas are not dense urban.

Outside of that, Dearborn is packed. East Dearborn particularly. High populations. Large families. They have no worries of their schools closing due to lack of students. As was the case for Farmington Hills there a while back. Dearborn Hts is fairly highly populated too.

**Gistok** · August-23-21, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by bartocktoo

Dearborn isn't urban? It's more urban than most parts of Detroit.

True! In general most of the inner ring suburbs are as densely packed as the "surviving" neighborhoods of Detroit. So when some here say "boring living in a suburb", that doesn't apply for the inner burbs... because besides crossing 8 Mile Rd. or Telegraph Rd.... it's pretty much a seamless transition [density wise] from one to the other for people not familiar with the area.