Has anyone done an in-depth analysis of Proposal P?

[65memories]

Listened to a debate tonight between Nicole Small [[pro) and Reggie Davis [[anti). Outside of the Citizens Research Council of Michigan, has anyone done a real analysis of Proposal P?

[Richard]

Not me,outside of the bullet points,but it is fascinating and concerning to watch at the same time.

This battle between two fractions of a party is history in the making.

https://ballotpedia.org/Detroit,_Mic..._City_Charter_[[August_2021)

• develop free public broadband internet;
• provide reparations to Black residents;
• change police practices, policies, and training requirements;
• give residents amnesty for water and sewer fees; and
• grant tax credit for residents who show proof of overassessed property taxes.

Kudos to the person that can solve the countrywide problem of overassessed property taxes and how to streamline that screwed up process.

Some cities have already addressed reparations,those demanding it are not happy with the results,they are asking for reparations based on figuring lost income of what somebody could have potentially earned had everybody along the line been successful financially in life,not even taking into account the Great Depression,but going back to the 1800s.

The irony of raising taxes on higher wealth African Americans in order to pay reparations to other African Americans seems to be lost.

My bloodline lost land,titles and accumulated wealth not once but 3 times in 3 different countries before landing on the US shores broke and poor,I think England owes me a few thousand acres,three castles and a mule,no checks and in US funds please.

They are not saying how they expect to fund these programs without increasing taxes on an already overburdened city.

It sounds cool when you say tax the billionaires but blind when you cannot see the impact on cities when billionaires move to different pastures the mid west and Detroit suffered for generations when investment left.

Tax the rich and feed the poor until there are rich no more - it’s almost like you could make a song out of that.

But in a sense it does not matter what I think,it does when 90% of the rest of the party does not support it.

Back in 1920 the socialist party said,little by little we will garner positions of power within the government and when that time comes,we will be in a position to implement our mandate.

They were not very far off.

[Danny]

Proposal P

PRO:

Promises for hefty high city wages for Detroit city workers.

CON:

Could drain some tax dollars in those services that lead Detroit back to brink of municipal bankruptcy.

Vote 'OH HELL NO!' on P.

[EastsideAl]

My main problem with P is it "fixes" something that isn't broken. We just implemented a new Charter 9 years ago that did fix some problems going back decades. Perhaps it's time to leave it be.

Much of what is proposed for this charter revision are things that don't really belong in a basic document like a charter, including some provisions that would commit the city to raising and spending a lot of money, but also restrict how the city can raise revenue. Most of what is in this proposed revision would be much more appropriately addressed as ordinances through the normal law-making and budget-making procedure.

[Scottathew]

For those of you curious about the what's in the proposed charter regarding reparations, this is what I was able to find, please pardon the formatting issues from the copy-paste:

Sec. 7-702. Taskforce on Reparations and African American Justice.

A. Taskforce Establishment.
There is established a permanent Human Rights Commission Taskforce on Reparation and African
American Justice to study, investigate, report on and address through reparations, the involvement,
facilitation, complicity and culpability of the City of Detroit in relationship to the slave trade, institutions of
slavery, institutional and structural racism, and discrimination against enslaved Africans and their
descendants. The role and impact of the conduct of the State of Michigan and United States in facilitating,
endorsing, legitimizing or otherwise enabling the City of Detroit may also be considered to the extent
applicable. The Taskforce shall operate under the supervision and direction of the Human Rights
Commission.
The Taskforce shall be established within 180 days of the adoption of this Charter and shall receive all of
the funding necessary to exercise its powers and accomplish its duties and obligations under this Charter,
and may accept private and public donations. The work of the Taskforce shall be made public upon
completion. The Human Rights Commission will provide an initial report of the Taskforces findings within
one [[1) year of its establishment and an updated report no less often than on a biannual basis.


B. Taskforce Composition.
Taskforce members shall be nominated by the Human Rights Commission for City Council’s approval at
one or more public meetings. The members of the Human Rights Commission selected from the seven
[[7) non at-large districts shall be ex-officio members of the Taskforce. Members may be non-residents
when necessary to acquire a particular expertise, experience or skillset, and all members shall be
individuals who are especially qualified to serve on the Taskforce by virtue of their education, training,
activism or experience, particularly in the field of African-American studies and reparations justice,
including but not limited to:
1. Persons with demonstrated experience leading or working with organizations or groups involved
with reparations;
2. Scholars and experts in African-American studies or history, law, civil rights or the social sciences;
3. Persons with demonstrated experience or expertise in social and economic justice policies and
programs;
4. Persons with demonstrated experience or expertise in finance or economics;
5. Persons with demonstrated experience or expertise in the development of social or economic
justice programs.


C. Duties and Powers.
The duties and powers of the Taskforce shall include, but are not limited to the following, which may be
expanded as set forth below to the extent not inconsistent with these duties and powers:
1. Determination of the role of the City of Detroit in the slave trade, including identification, compilation
and synthetization of evidentiary documentation of the support of the institution of slavery in the
City of Detroit, including but not limited to the capture, transport, sale, acquisition and treatment of
African slaves in the City of Detroit.
2. Identification and documentation of the role of the City of Detroit in supporting the institutions of
slavery, including the extent to which the government prevented, opposed or restricted efforts of
formerly enslaved Africans and their descendants to repatriate to their homeland or escape from
human trafficking in Africans and their descendants.
3. Identification and documentation of any local laws or ordinances that discriminated or facilitated
segregation or discrimination against enslaved Africans and their descendants. This shall include
identification of governmental efforts that could have been lawfully taken to improve the conditions
of formerly enslaved Africans and their descendants.
4. Identification and documentation of all City of Detroit sponsored or affiliated businesses, labor
unions or other entities that facilitated, institutionalized or perpetuated practices that economically,
socially, educationally or otherwise impaired African American citizens in their ability to historically
and currently enjoy the rights, privileges and opportunities of citizenship.
5. Identification all of the persistent negative effects of the institutions of slavery, racism, segregation
and discrimination on African-American residents of the City of Detroit, including but not limited to
redlining, inequitable educational funding, policies and curriculum, psychosocial and psychological
programming and employment and entrepreneurial opportunities.
6. Document, record and publish the achievements and struggles of African American citizens,
prominent and otherwise, businesses and organizations within the City of Detroit.
7. Recommend appropriate remedies in consideration of Taskforce findings, including but not limited
to: [[1) the manner and form of a formal apology by the City of Detroit for its involvement, facilitation,
complicity and perpetuation of human rights violations and crimes, moral or otherwise, against the
humanity, dignity, integrity and aspirations of African slaves and their descendants; [[2) the
appropriate means to document, communicate, preserve and educate current and future
generations regarding Taskforce findings and recommendations; [[3) repeal and elimination of local
laws, policies and practices that disproportionately and negatively affect African-Americans as a
group, and those laws and policies, and practices that perpetuate the lingering economic and
psychosocial effects of structural and institutional racism, discrimination, racial prejudice and
slavery, and the institution of laws, policies and practices that advance the interest and economic,
social and psychological welfare of African American citizens; [[3) the appropriate means to address
the negative effects on African American residents due to slavery, institutional and structural
racism, discrimination and racial prejudice perpetuated and currently sustained by the State of
Michigan and United States; [[4) the appropriate policies, programs, projects and recommendations
for the purpose of reversing and ameliorating identified injuries, such as increasing minority
homeownership and access to affordable housing, increasing minority business ownership and career opportunities, strategies to grow equity and generational wealth, eliminating disparities in
health care, education, employment and wages, neighborhood safety and fair treatment within the
criminal justice system; [[5) the form, eligibility and manner of calculation of compensation to be
provided to descendants of enslaved Africans by the City of Detroit; and [[6) any other manner of
rehabilitation, recompense or restitution for African descendants, which may take the form of
extension of African American History month, a truth and reconciliation process for businesses,
families and individuals involved in the slave trade, perpetuation of structural and institutional
racism, or other form of oppression experienced by African American residents.
8. Explore, report on and provide recommendations regarding any matter deemed relevant by the
Taskforce in the execution and fulfillment of its duties and obligations under this Charter or
ordinance.
9. Identification and recording of the statues, monuments, plaques, city streets, city-owned property
and any designation or inscription on city owned or controlled property that has a relationship to
slavery, the institutionalization of racism, racial segregation, racial prejudice, racial bigotry or that
otherwise demeans and degrades African Americans, and documentation of the history,
individuals, entities and ideas associated thereto. These findings shall be reported to the Human
Rights Commission, Mayor, City Council and public. City Council shall establish and implement a
process to address each finding of the Taskforce on this matter, which may include without
limitation removal, replacement, renaming, redesignation and rededication.
The Taskforce shall study and recommend to the Mayor and City Council, for immediate
implementation, a city thoroughfare and monument dedicated to the memory and service of Mayor
Coleman Alexander Young and shall also commission a definitive and exhaustive biography of the
Mayor that shall be made freely available to the public online.
10. Maintain an online archive, social media and subscription service that provides residents
information and updates regarding the Taskforce’s work, including scholarly articles, news
accounts, books, papers and other items and materials consulted, referenced, utilized or
recommended by the Taskforce.
11. Creation and implementation of a protocol for citizen input and participation into the work of the
Taskforce beyond that required under the Michigan Open Meetings Act.
12. The Taskforce may acquire directly from the head of any department, agency, instrumentality of
city government, including libraries and museums, available information considered useful in the
discharge of the duties under this section. All departments, agencies and instrumentalities of city
government shall cooperate with the Commission and Taskforce with respect to such information
and shall furnish all information requested.
13. Unless prohibited by law, Taskforce may require the attendance and testimony of witnesses and
production of private entities, organizations and individuals as they consider appropriate.
14. Other duties and powers as assigned by the Civil Rights, Inclusion and Opportunity Department,
Human Rights Commission, or City Council through ordinance.
City Council shall hold public hearings on all recommendations and reports submitted by the Human Rights
Commission within sixty [[60) days of presentation by the Commission. The Commission will have the right
to present its recommendation and findings at public hearings held during City Council’s budgetary
process.

Source: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d0j...bvptPa59N/view
https://sites.google.com/view/detroitcharter2018/

[LongGone06]

"...and documentation of the history, individuals, entities and ideas associated thereto."

A bit of McCarthyism in the 21st Century.

[Dumpling]

How on earth could the above task force, whether you agree
with its aims and purposes or not, whether it can be equated
with McCarthyism or not, set the city back by two billion over
four years? [Or, equivalent to 500 million per year]

NB - The City of Detroit does have an impending pension
payment crisis, which may be a starting point for the
stated cost estimates, but it's not as though Proposal P
decisively changes this situation for the worse.

Disclosure - I am a former employee of the City of Detroit
and am vested in the GRS pension though not receiving
any benefits from it at this time.

There was some mention about a residency requirement
somewhere in Proposal P. That would go against current
state policy; however, calling Proposal P illegal solely on
this basis is a bit of a stretch.

A residency requirement would probably be very unpopular
with a majority of those who are now working for the City of
Detroit police and fire departments.

[LongGone06]

How on earth could the above task force, whether you agree
with its aims and purposes or not, whether it can be equated
with McCarthyism or not, set the city back by two billion over
four years? [Or, equivalent to 500 million per year]

NB - The City of Detroit does have an impending pension
payment crisis, which may be a starting point for the
stated cost estimates, but it's not as though Proposal P
decisively changes this situation for the worse.

Disclosure - I am a former employee of the City of Detroit
and am vested in the GRS pension though not receiving
any benefits from it at this time.

There was some mention about a residency requirement
somewhere in Proposal P. That would go against current
state policy; however, calling Proposal P illegal solely on
this basis is a bit of a stretch.

A residency requirement would probably be very unpopular
with a majority of those who are now working for the City of
Detroit police and fire departments.

Was the state law on residency ever challenged? I don’t recall. I’m not sure what the legal justification is for restricting cities from including residency as a condition of employment. It may be unpopular, but I don’t know that it’s a bad thing.

I’m more curious about the funding. I pass no judgment on whether it should or should not happen; but, if the city is responsible for reparations, wouldn’t it be paying from tax revenue collected from the very people receiving the reparations?

[Henry Whalley]

…if the city is responsible for reparations, wouldn’t it be paying from tax revenue collected from the very people receiving the reparations?

Affirmative. And there would be two giant sucking sounds of populations moving out of and into the city for opposite reasons.

[ABetterDetroit]

What I find confusing about this proposal is that it is punishing the City of Detroit for sins committed in the past. Those residents are mostly gone or dead. Going after the current residents seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Why is not Mary Sheffield galvanizing support to go after Lansing for laws that are clearly written to pick winners and losers when Detroit is obviously the loser?

Lansing preventing the stadia in Detroit from collecting a 6 percent sales tax on ticket sales so the money could be used to benefit residents of the city in some form would make much more sense than this proposal mess. At least a sales tax on the gate of those venues would raise serious money worth fighting for.

[Henry Whalley]

...Those residents are mostly gone or dead. Going after the current residents seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Chalk it up to posturing by political opportunists. Watch for their bumper stickers.

[hybridy]

Evanston, IL is using tax funds from marijuana sales to fund a reparations program. Some qualifying locals are against it calling it a 'housing voucher'.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/...start-n1269289

[K-slice]

I honestly cant believe it took so long for this thread to be started.

Creating a committee to "study" reparations is nothing but a smoke screen to inevitable eventual reparation payments. Does anyone really think a committee composed of the listed parties would come to the conclusion that payments AREN'T due?

P is a mashup of giveaways and left wing wish list items parading as policy. Hopefully my fellow Detroiters have the good sense to shoot it down.

[1953]

I just had a presentation on the proposed charter from the Citizens Research Council. The key takeaway for me is that this is not a charter proposal at all, but a wish list of progressive causes. It might make a good party platform, but it won't likely make for a well-managed city; in fact, its likely that many of the things contained in the charter will be reigned in by courts. One example: the charter goes into effect immediately, if approved; there is not even time to file it, as required by law.

More broadly, this charter proposes to micromanage leaders, which might be ok today, but it promises to hamstring future leaders, who may face different challenges, needs, etc. For example, the charter creates a set amount to give to the Charles Wright every year, whether or not the city has the money or whether inflation renders that amount useless. In my opinion, a good charter sets broad guidelines for running government; it shouldn't dictate the way you spend specific amounts of money.

[[Its free speech, free religion, and free press, not free bus fare, free water, and $12 for that guy over there)

[Henry Whalley]

...It might make a good party platform, but it won't likely make for a well-managed city

It's business as usual for Detroit. In other words, FUBAR economic suicide.

[DeLemur]

The citizens research council has
https://crcmich.org/publications/pro...etroit-charter

[JRiordan]

Was the state law on residency ever challenged? I don’t recall. I’m not sure what the legal justification is for restricting cities from including residency as a condition of employment. It may be unpopular, but I don’t know that it’s a bad thing.

I’m more curious about the funding. I pass no judgment on whether it should or should not happen; but, if the city is responsible for reparations, wouldn’t it be paying from tax revenue collected from the very people receiving the reparations?

What group would challenge that state law and why? Detroit has enough challenges finding qualified candidates, a residency requirement would only make it worse.


The Michigan Constitution does not allow taxpayer money to be allocated to a specific race. Not clear on how Mary Sheffield's idea of using a marijuana tax would work.

[Henry Whalley]

The citizens research council has
https://crcmich.org/publications/pro...etroit-charter

IMHO, the reparations task force and 47 more elected politicians will just waste resources and time that would be better utilized if applied toward education or almost anything else. But then I’m not a Detroit resident.

[Dumpling]

I looked at several snippets in that report and do like the
clause whereby the corporation counsel is jointly appointed
by the City Council and the mayor as opposed to being
solely a mayoral appointee. I am comfortable with the
notion of the corporation counsel not being particularly
beholden to anyone. They will need of course to uphold
the laws to the extent possible.

If you can make a solid case that all of the extra employees
mandated by this charter are going to cost so much that the
trash pickup and police response will be noticeably worse and
that pension payments to existing pensioners will be cut in
half, then I might consider voting "NO" on P.

The case is not solid. The Citizens Research Council has Nick
Khouri serving on it. He served under Gov. Rick Snyder at the
time of the City of Detroit bankruptcy with a goal of maximizing
lean government, not just in Detroit, but beyond.
Don't get me started - but, the United States Post Office,
the Unemployment Agency, the Secretary of State's offices....I am
so not happy about "improvements" to all of those.

One of the many so-called improvements put in place
under Chief Craig as head of the police department
and Nick Khouri in the Michigan Treasury at the time
of the City of Detroit bankruptcy was to hire NPO's
as "at will" employees.

That's still the case so far as I know. Neighborhood
Police Officers, along with all of the other problems
they may deal with, along with relatively low pay,
remain "at will" employees.

[Burnsie]

For the purposes of reparations, how does the city determine if someone is black? Merely by self-identifying? What if you look "white" but claim one or several African ancestors? Do you have to prove that ancestry? Would a certain minimum percentage of African ancestry be required? What methodology for proving your ancestry would be acceptable, and who in city government would approve your method & results?

[JBMcB]

I forgot who said it, but one famous lawmaker said something to the effect "If you can't summarize exactly what a law does in one sentence, it's a poorly crafted law."

I'm sure they are employing the "death by majority" gambit of cramming enough popular stuff in there that the unpopular stuff gets pushed through as well.

There is absolutely no reason these can't be broken out and voted on individually, other than the politicians don't trust the people of Detroit with that much power.

[Dumpling]

Here's the thing. If you remember the riots in the City of Detroit
the summer of 1967, you will remember that numerous small
businesses were looted, gutted, and they never returned.

There was a diminishing of economic activity that occurred.
Some researchers have looked at that and concluded that one
effect was an ongoing overall contraction of the economy of
about five percent from what it should have been.

So yes, maybe the former owners of those businesses should
receive reparations, but then again, reparations to them would
come out of a diminished economy, from those with lesser income
and opportunity.

It should not be hard to determine who would be eligible for
reparations. It would not be anyone who is Black per se, it
would be anyone who is descended from a person who was
enslaved or a blood relative of a person who was enslaved.

From this concept one could get in the weeds. One can
decide whether to limit reparations to descendants of those
who were in the United States when slavery was legal in the
United States or descendants of slaves elsewhere in the world.
If a person is born in Brazil and emigrated to the United States
and became a citizen of this country, should they be eligible for
reparations here if they are a descendant of slaves in
Brazil, using notion of a global economy?

[Henry Whalley]

Almost fifty additional elected politicians? Is the idea that Detroit wants to lead the world in the number of elected opportunists? This proposal will have the support of at least 50-100 bloviating scumbags with zero qualifications.

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm a 'Super Anti-Racist'. I'm against discrimination on the basis of race. No more to be said. Are you with me? Or do you like discrimination as long as its the right kind.

[LongGone06]

What group would challenge that state law and why? Detroit has enough challenges finding qualified candidates, a residency requirement would only make it worse.

Yes, I should have done a little research before posting my comment. I was questioning the state law from a purely legal standpoint, rather than a practical one.