International rail coming to MCS?

[25th&9th]

While reading Amtrak's $75B expansion proposal, I came across this little tidbit of information. What do you guys make of this? The wording is a bit ambiguous, but it seems like it also could mean that the other Detroit trains could be rerouted to MCS as well. I definitely have my doubts, but this could be very beneficial to the city.

The link to the PDF can be found here at Amtrak's website: https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/

[Satiricalivory]

There is no other way to connect a train from Canada to Detroit then through Michigan Central. So if this happens that's what it'll be. I highly doubt Amtrak would do train service that doesn't even enter the US.

[25th&9th]

I mean yeah that's a given. I was talking more about the existing wolverine line rerouting it's trains to stop at MCS rather than the Amtrak station in New Center. I definitely could have been more clear about that in the original post

[K-slice]

Even more reason to run a streetcar extension down Michigan. The one thing the current station has on MCS is the very traveler friendly Q Line station right out the front door. As it stands I dont think MCS has any easy connection to downtown besides calling an Uber.

Besides that the current station is a disgrace much better suited to a small town or suburb.

When will the US as a country get rail transportation right again? [[totally rhetorical)

[Atticus]

Even more reason to run a streetcar extension down Michigan. The one thing the current station has on MCS is the very traveler friendly Q Line station right out the front door. As it stands I dont think MCS has any easy connection to downtown besides calling an Uber.

Besides that the current station is a disgrace much better suited to a small town or suburb.

When will the US as a country get rail transportation right again? [[totally rhetorical)

The real issue for Amtrak/MDOT is deciding who to serve. By having the current stop at New Center, the Wolverine Line [[going to Chicago via Ann Arbor, Kzoo, etc) can also serve Royal Oak, Troy, & Pontiac.

If the Wolverine Line gets rerouted to MCS, then it probably doesn’t make sense to serve Royal Oak, Troy, and Pontiac anymore... because that would essentially require the train to back out of MCS, and obviously not head into Canada.

The best option would probably be to convince VIA rail to extend their service to the New Center station, and have passengers connect from Amtrak to VIA there. MCS was always in an awkward location for rail service not heading to Canada, and that was the ultimate reason Amtrak service was rerouted to New Center back in the 1980s.

[Wesley Mouch]

The real issue for Amtrak/MDOT is deciding who to serve. By having the current stop at New Center, the Wolverine Line [[going to Chicago via Ann Arbor, Kzoo, etc) can also serve Royal Oak, Troy, & Pontiac.

A Detroit detour seems to run counter to an efficient Chicago-Toronto line -- and let's face it we are the clear #3 in that triad.

...snip...

The best option would probably be to convince VIA rail to extend their service to the New Center station, and have passengers connect from Amtrak to VIA there. MCS was always in an awkward location for rail service not heading to Canada, and that was the ultimate reason Amtrak service was rerouted to New Center back in the 1980s.

Sure, there was logic in re-routing the trains to the New Center, but it was never clear to me that it was worth the cost. When I travelled Amtrack to Detroit in the 80s almost nobody got off at MCS. A full train departing Chicago was mostly emptied out by Ann Arbor, and 99% empty after Dearborn. Only a few hard urbanites thought getting off at MCS was a good move -- although the glorious mobile trailer serving as a station in the shadow of the real station was a true joy.

The re-route to New Center probably looked good to bureaucrats somewhere. Did it really increase usage? Does that line to RO and points north get usage? I don't know, but would guess that it did help.

But if the line were to extend to Toronto [[or to Chicago as you view it), it makes more sense to create a short connector service.

This new line would be a Toronto-Chicago line. And if its gonna work [[and support Detroit/Windsor), it should be as good a T-C and C-T line as possible. Solve the local problem via other methods [[abolish DSR and SMART and make something useful -- allow much more private competition -- and hobble the taxi/limo companies into compliance.)

[Satiricalivory]

^What are you talking about? Nothing in your comment makes sense.

[Atticus]

A Detroit detour seems to run counter to an efficient Chicago-Toronto line -- and let's face it we are the clear #3 in that triad.

...snip...


Sure, there was logic in re-routing the trains to the New Center, but it was never clear to me that it was worth the cost. When I travelled Amtrack to Detroit in the 80s almost nobody got off at MCS. A full train departing Chicago was mostly emptied out by Ann Arbor, and 99% empty after Dearborn. Only a few hard urbanites thought getting off at MCS was a good move -- although the glorious mobile trailer serving as a station in the shadow of the real station was a true joy.

The re-route to New Center probably looked good to bureaucrats somewhere. Did it really increase usage? Does that line to RO and points north get usage? I don't know, but would guess that it did help.

But if the line were to extend to Toronto [[or to Chicago as you view it), it makes more sense to create a short connector service.

This new line would be a Toronto-Chicago line. And if its gonna work [[and support Detroit/Windsor), it should be as good a T-C and C-T line as possible. Solve the local problem via other methods [[abolish DSR and SMART and make something useful -- allow much more private competition -- and hobble the taxi/limo companies into compliance.)

Lets not forget that the Wolverine Line is funded primarily by the State of Michigan. Which means those currently footing the bill have more reason to ensure Pontiac, Royal Oak, and the new Troy station are served, as opposed to better serving Chicago-Toronto through passengers who may not be Michigan tax payers.

The other issue is a lot has changed on the border front over the years, and immigration/customs/border checks are much more strict now. Point being, passengers are going to have to get off the train in Windsor or Detroit anyway and go through immigration. Since passengers will have to get off the train anyway, might as well make New Center a connection point between Amtrak/VIA, build an immigration facility in New Center, and just keep the Oakland County AMTRAK service we currently have.

MCS was, and hopefully will be again, a beautiful facility... but it is still in an awkward location. At this point I think it might be best to let Ford make the MCS building structure work for Ford’s needs, and focus on improving new center as Detroit’s rail station, with a new VIA stop.

[Detroit]

I don't think the intention would be to move all the Wolverine Service trains to MCS. It says 1 train.. I would also bet that only referred to it as the "Wolverine" service rather than trying to come up with a new name just for a report. I think that it would still be 3 round trips from Pontiac to Chicago with a 4th one to Toronto or 2 round trips from Pontiac to Chicago with the other round trip stopping at MCS coming from/going to Toronto.

Since Amtrak wouldn't need to invest large amounts of capital in to the MCS, I would imagine it would be beneficial for Amtrak to try this route. It will bring people from Toronto to Detroit and will be an easier link to Toronto for Detroiters. I have taken Via Rail from Windsor to Toronto before but it was a pain. If I could get on the train in the US to go there I think I would be much more likely to do it again.

[renf]

When the New York Central and then, later the Penn Central, ran trains east from Detroit to Buffalo, their passenger trains stopped in Windsor. Am I correct in think that was at the Canadien Pacific depot in Windsor? Was that located at Tecumseh Road and Crawford? Is that depot still standing?
Thanks

[Wesley Mouch]

Lets not forget that the Wolverine Line is funded primarily by the State of Michigan. Which means those currently footing the bill have more reason to ensure Pontiac, Royal Oak, and the new Troy station are served, as opposed to better serving Chicago-Toronto through passengers who may not be Michigan tax payers.

I'd assert that a strong connection with Toronto is in the interest of Michigan taxpayers. Infrastructure is built-environment that increases our efficiency and helps generate wealth. Integration between C/D/T is that.

The other issue is a lot has changed on the border front over the years, and immigration/customs/border checks are much more strict now. Point being, passengers are going to have to get off the train in Windsor or Detroit anyway and go through immigration. Since passengers will have to get off the train anyway, might as well make New Center a connection point between Amtrak/VIA, build an immigration facility in New Center, and just keep the Oakland County AMTRAK service we currently have.

True. The model Amtrak has used in the Pacific Northwest was an 'on train' customs check. An officer boards before the border and walks through and checks passports. The Cascades line has the advantage of distance between the border and its terminal in Vancouver BC. I trust they do the same in Toronto/NY, but I've not experienced either.

MCS was, and hopefully will be again, a beautiful facility... but it is still in an awkward location. At this point I think it might be best to let Ford make the MCS building structure work for Ford’s needs, and focus on improving new center as Detroit’s rail station, with a new VIA stop.

VIA extending might be a fine interim step. Seems achievable, where true international direct service much more aggressive. If ridership and value become evident, would be easy to extend VIA or Amtrak.

[Burnsie]

A search for "MDOT rail stats" brings up Amtrak ridership going back many years. Some combined boarding/deboarding totals for 2019:
Pontiac 15,353
Troy 37,009
Royal Oak 27,751
Detroit 72,260
Dearborn 73,589
Ann Arbor 154,813

The quickest way to get service going would be no intermediate stops between Dearborn and Toronto. Straight shot from Dearborn to the tunnel. Who knows how politically tenable that would be.

Then, run on the Canadian Pacific mainline from the tunnel to a point just west of Chatham, where a short connecting track could be built at the diamond to get the train onto the VIA/CN line. Otherwise, substantial upgrades would be needed on one of the two connecting routes in Windsor that the train would need to take to get up to the VIA/CN route. If also stopping at the VIA station in Walkerville, you'd have to add a backup move into that mix.

I don't know what if any signal upgrades CP would insist on.

East of Chatham, CN owns the line that VIA runs on, and would likely be hostile to the prospect of another passenger train on it. It might even be easier to run it on CP all the way to Toronto.

It's too bad VIA didn't build its recent new station at the old MC/CP depot site by the tunnel, instead of at the dead-end Walkerville site.

Of course the real question is who would pay for the Toronto extension. Amtrak might provide some seed money, but not enough to keep it going for the long term.

[KnnNike]

The real issue for Amtrak/MDOT is deciding who to serve. By having the current stop at New Center, the Wolverine Line [[going to Chicago via Ann Arbor, Kzoo, etc) can also serve Royal Oak, Troy, & Pontiac.

If the Wolverine Line gets rerouted to MCS, then it probably doesn’t make sense to serve Royal Oak, Troy, and Pontiac anymore... because that would essentially require the train to back out of MCS, and obviously not head into Canada.

The best option would probably be to convince VIA rail to extend their service to the New Center station, and have passengers connect from Amtrak to VIA there. MCS was always in an awkward location for rail service not heading to Canada, and that was the ultimate reason Amtrak service was rerouted to New Center back in the 1980s.

Maybe someone can explain this part to me...I read this and think 'so what'? MCS is a straight 1-mile detour off of the current track that runs to New Center. On the Chicago-Pontiac route, the extra time required to turn the train around at MCS seems marginal, especially since there's a place to do it via the triangular interchange east of Scotten Ave.

I have hard time believing that this maneuver would be the make-or-break for someone deciding to take the train or not, and it makes sense on so many other levels.

[casscorridor]

If this happens the Pontiac branch should just be a commuter line with an off-peak 2tph frequency including evenings and weekends, terminating in Ann Arbor and a stop that allows a convenient connection to the airport.

[renf]

The idea of high frequency Pontiac to Ann Arbor commuter service through
the New Center station in Detroit is a good one. Some of the American Recovery Act monies flowing to Lansing are, I think, designated for infastructure improvements.
Engineers at MSU have done some work on hydrogen powered trains and the Germans, I believe, have a moderate sized line when the passenger trains are hydrogen powered. I think there is a firm in California now
building experimental hydrogen powered engines for railroads. Maybe
Michigan could obtain extra federal support for clean energy by demonstrating the feasibility on hydrogen power on this proposed Pontiac to Ann Arbor service. We need entrepreneurs.