Zug Island and Wind Turbine Blades

[renf]

Early in the Obama Administration, I think that Detroit Edison, the University of Michigan and Michigan State cooperated on a proposal seeking federal funds to build a facility on Zug Island to test those huge wind turbine blades. The Obama Administration decided to locate that facility, I think, in South Carolina.

Yesterday President Biden stated his hope that those huge blades would be built in the United States rather than in China. Is the proposal to build a testing facility on Zug Island still alive? Detroit Edison has a coke plant there I believe and the steel mill is less active than it was 12 years ago.

[Lowell]

Good question. I hope it happens.

I may be wrong, but I would be surprised if Detroit Edison owned the coke operations. Maybe they have an option on the land? Also I don't recall steel being made there, only blast furnaces for making pig iron from ore and coke from its coke ovens. The pig iron was sent to the steel mills in nearby Ecorse for conversion into steel. At least that was the situation when I worked on Zug ages ago.

[Richard]

He’s a bit forgetful.

The program under Obama was to figure out how to make them cheaper,useing different materials etc.

They cost up to $750,000 per blade,the facilities ended up in Boulder Colorado but they also have a technology branch as part of the research in Michigan.

https://www.nrel.gov/wind/iacmi.html

I have a friend who climbs to the top of those things in order to repair them.

GE pretty much controls everything and it is all pretty much subsides that make it happen.

On a side note,if somebody is not afraid of heights GE will train you to work on these things and then you can advance to steam power generation,good way to work 90 days a year and get paid for the full year.

All of this green energy is dependent on federal funding as it is across the world,so there is little stability in it,one year it may be all the rage then the next it is out until the next round of funding comes in.

So it is risky as a stable job provider outside of the repair side of the existing ones,until they can figure them out.

I think it will end up going the same route as it did with solar panels,the US taxpayers will spend billions figuring it all out,then China steps in and takes it over and dominates the industry.

If we stay involved,it will be because they are “green” and overlook the efficiency aspect.

Currently they are like the Model T,they have not figured them out yet,the blades used currently need to be changed out constantly and the ones replaced are being handled pretty much like things were in the 1920s,dig a hole in the ground and burry them,because they have a toxic level to them.

They figured out how to make them but forgot about how to dispose of them.

It will be years before they are actually effective.

[Honky Tonk]

I think it would be a FANTASTIC use for the island. Not only the energy independency, but as Richard stated, it would open and create another job market, and maybe increase residency in Detroit. The island is pretty much in open water, so wind direction shouldn't be an issue. Zug Island does have a huge brown field problem. I'm not sure how that would effect plans to develop and put up wind turbines.

[Richard]

My property research in Detroit reads you can resume industrial use on brownfield properties.

You just cannot if it is going to be used for the public,like school playgrounds.

So it would be a good fit,I think GE would be the one to snuggle up to for the opportunity.

[Honky Tonk]

Maybe GE could start dating DTE? I also like the idea of turning an old school polluting business into a new clean green business.

[Richard]

Well, kinda clean,in the land of ice and snow,they use helicopters to dump chemicals on the towers to de-ice the blades before they become unbalanced and self destruct.

The positive side is,if it is already a brownfield,nothing to worry about creating a new one in the name of green,just no green will be growing at the base of them.

I hope someday they will release some kind of study as to what exactly the impact on the environment those chemicals create.

What is interesting is Canada supplies much of the power to the east coast grid,at a loss at night,so what happens there?

Most of the major solar farms are joint ventures between power companies and the manufacturers,maybe it would be feasible for somebody like GE who has the political strength to pull it off with some kind of merger with the smaller utility companies,I do not see them pulling it off on their own.

Lots of money up front laid out for a small return unless you have 100s of spinning blades.

Of course China would put up the money to stack them up,but then there is that whole,who’s your daddy now,thing to deal with in the future.

But you still use the old school polluting businesses in order to build the things in the first place,catch 22.

With the cost of materials skyrocketing and the world shortage of steel,I am kinda surprised they are not firing up the steel making aspect or at least saying , oops maybe we should have not been so hasty to shut it down.

[Dumpling]

This is an older thread from DetroitYes that might be of interest.

https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...vonia&p=450752

[bust]

Wind turbines installed in cold places have their own internal de-icing systems.

The ones that recently failed in Texas did not. Their fault. But their much bigger problems and main causes of their blackouts were with their fossil fuel power plants.

When wind turbines occasionally need external de-icing they can be de-iced with, wait for it: hot water.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...en/6787470002/

Don't tell that to anyone who watches Tucker Carlson though.
I'm so sick of his and his disinformation.

[JBMcB]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...en/6787470002/

Ah, "journalism" these days...

That was a video of a Swedish company that is experimenting with using hot water, instead of water mixed with ethylene glycol, which is what most de-icing sprays use. It's interesting that they are getting good results, but once you hit a certain temperature, water alone isn't going to work.

Ethylene glycol, while poisonous, breaks down pretty quickly when exposed to the elements. So, as long as they aren't spraying it where there are people, it really isn't a big deal.

[Richard]

Disinformation seems to be a catchy virus.

https://www.windpowerengineering.com...urbine-blades/

Iowa winters are supposed to be the best season for wind energy harvesting due to the abundant wind resources and increased air density with decreasing temperature,” Hu and his research group wrote in a description of their project. “However, ice accretion on turbine blades was found to decrease a turbine’s power production significantly [[i.e. up to 50% reduction at critical icing sites).”
Current technology takes some of the power produced by turbines to heat the massive surface of turbine blades. But that consumes a lot of energy.

https://www.news.iastate.edu/news/20...3/turbineicing


A helicopter company in Constance has developed a solution – featuring a helicopter, of course. They use a helicopter to spray hot water, which quickly melts ice from the blades.
It takes us about 1.5 hours to deice wind turbines, says CEO Mats Widgren.
The water is heated overnight using a truck equipped with a 260 kW oil burner. Come morning, the helicopter can start shuttling the water to the icy wind turbine.

https://www.iceagenow.info/ice-freez...dmills-sweden/

Kinda defeats the clean energy aspect if you have to use fossil fuel to heat the water and fossil fuel to power the helicopter to spray the water.

Of course sense it never gets below freezing in northern climates or even on a daily or hourly bases it probably has little impact.

They have not figured it out yet,different systems are being tested all over the world,it takes equal to 2 days energy produced to do one de-ice process.They still generate power in cold conditions but up to a 80% reduction.So one can say they still work in cold climates but how efficient is another story.

Who is Tucker Carlson ? People that watch him must know what he says?

Its not a wind turbine pissing match,the OP was looking for ways to use current programs in order to provide jobs and diversity to the city,the discussion should be about how to make that happen.

[bust]

Disinformation....

I hate debunking your idiocy and other propaganda.

Even cherry-picking your sources you can't pretend your arguments without assininities {sic} like IceAgeNow. LOL!

Wind turbines rarely need external de-icing. Because planning.

When preventative measures aren't enough they can be de-iced with water that doesn't need to be heated by oil burners. Because technology.

Tucker Carlson: the most influential pusher of Putin's agenda since Trump was deplatformed, for now.

He was the one who broadcast the lie debunked by USA Today and others that the video of hot water de-icing turbines in Sweden was of toxins de-icing turbines in Texas.

We should be able to talk about bringing future economy jobs to Detroit without you trying to torpedo the discussion with disinformation.

[Honky Tonk]

Ah, "journalism" these days...

That was a video of a Swedish company that is experimenting with using hot water, instead of water mixed with ethylene glycol, which is what most de-icing sprays use. It's interesting that they are getting good results, but once you hit a certain temperature, water alone isn't going to work.

Ethylene glycol, while poisonous, breaks down pretty quickly when exposed to the elements. So, as long as they aren't spraying it where there are people, it really isn't a big deal.

Maybe that's why they don't spray your jet with hot water to de-ice it before you get on.

[bust]

^^
Unless it's a "bomb cyclone" usually they could.
Is it safe flying in such a deep freeze anyway?

[ferndalien]

I just stopped by to thank renf and Lowell for calling it Detroit Edison. See you guys at Pine Knob sometime!

[Richard]

I hate debunking your idiocy and other propaganda.

Even cherry-picking your sources you can't pretend your arguments without assininities {sic} like IceAgeNow. LOL!

Wind turbines rarely need external de-icing. Because planning.

When preventative measures aren't enough they can be de-iced with water that doesn't need to be heated by oil burners. Because technology.

Tucker Carlson: the most influential pusher of Putin's agenda since Trump was deplatformed, for now.

He was the one who broadcast the lie debunked by USA Today and others that the video of hot water de-icing turbines in Sweden was of toxins de-icing turbines in Texas.

We should be able to talk about bringing future economy jobs to Detroit without you trying to torpedo the discussion with disinformation.

Next time it is 20 below zero and your car is covered in ice,spray it down with hot water and let me know how it went.

You are the only one always trying to torpedo discussions and dragging politics into it.

[bartocktoo]

Next time it is 20 below zero and your car is covered in ice,spray it down with hot water and let me know how it went.

You are the only one always trying to torpedo discussions and dragging politics into it.

Don't fool yourself. You are always dragging your politics in everything you post.

[Richard]

Don't fool yourself. You are always dragging your politics in everything you post.

The ones dragging politics into everything,out themselves.

Anything green is new and evolving and one has to be careful when putting all of their eggs in one basket.

We went from the Industrial Age where most could earn a decent living with little education,to the technology age where it required a higher education,which left a lot of people behind and incomes dropped now into the Green and AI where human intervention is removed from the process all together.

Remember when solar panels were all the rage,we actually had factories in this country and workers producing them,now workers assemble parts that are imported from China and we no longer manufacturer them.

When we look at evolving we also need to look at the long term impacts Green is in its infancy,even the companies that own the charging stations are not seeing a profit and are looking at profits in 15 years.

I think Detroit can take advantage of it as another form of diversity but I still think that we need to not forget about the basics and what employs the most diverse,it’s just one part of a bigger picture.

If you read politics into everything you will find it,but it has zero to do with politics and creates a distraction instead of keeping your eye on and discussing what is best for the city and how to go about achieving it.

Apparently some, as they have in the past,do not want to see that happening,so they act as they do in order to create a distraction.

The further we have advanced as a society,the more are left behind,it has zero to do with politics,even a cave man can figure or experience that one out.

Maybe that is where the real problem starts,you have the OP looking for ways to better the city,while others distract from that,instead of banding together and create solutions.

If you have not figured out that is not the solution by now,you are in for a continuation of a rough ride.

[Dumpling]

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/dte...r-plant-friday

This coal-fired plant may have been running in May, but it
ran at its maximum for January Polar Vortex cold weather.
Then you would see steam from the tall stack, not the side
stack.

I really shouldn't worry about this since DTE is supposed to
be powering most of the cars in ten years in addition to
providing electricity for residential and business use, which would be
a more energy efficient way to drive, no question.

However in the last decade I've experienced many brownouts
and power outages to the point where they are planned for,
short of buying a Generac.

[Richard]

Notice how whenever power companies talk about how they are going green they never tell you how much it is going to cost you?

I watched a program the other day where they stated that as our power grid stands now,it would be 25 years before it could handle a 30% increase of electric car charging.

My current power bill has a new line added already $25 per month more to convert the utility’s company conversion to green by 2040.

That is on top of the $18.50 they are still charging for the increased fuel costs when the gas was $5 per gallon years ago.

My actual electrical use was $27.50 the rest of the total bill of $83 was taxes and add ons.

It still begs to question,if 70% of the electricity supplied to the main east coast grid is provided by Canada,what happens when Canada decides to go green and finds out they cannot supply enough power for the two countries and starts shutting down that switch?

Clean coal is still the most efficient way to generate power,until the general public stops buying plastic items and imported goods that need fossil fuel to be transported 10,000 miles then moved by more fossil fuel trucks,nobody is really serious about the planet or green.

Now they are saying that large wind turbine farms disrupts the natural wind flow and changes weather patterns in that local.

The power companies have plausible deniability,when people start asking about power shortages they will just say,suck it up Nancy,that is a small price to pay to save the planet.

In the 70s people in this county fought tooth and nail to stop the strip mining of raw materials to fuel our lifestyle,so they shut it down,but not really because that is what is happening in other countries and they are being destroyed and devastated just so we can claim to be saving the planet.

Maybe that is the goal,destroying 1/2 the planet to save the other 1/2?

It’s always somebody telling us that they are going to do something to make our life better,kinda like slamming freeways through cities was supposed to make our life easier,it usually makes life easier for those at the top while those at the bottom pay for it and there is always somebody that is sacrificed in paying that price for the greater good.

Any volunteers?

[Gistok]

Richard... sounds to me that the Florida Public Service Commission sucks big time, maybe you should complain to your state government.

As for you claiming 70% of east coast electricity comes from Canada... I think you have been misinformed... see attachment.

As to a lot of the other things you mentioned... I think that a grain of salt needs to go with a lot of that. Most of the folks on this forum have at least some college education, and can see that you must not be using the same search engine as most on this forum...

[Honky Tonk]

Richard... sounds to me that the Florida Public Service Commission sucks big time, maybe you should complain to your state government.

As for you claiming 70% of east coast electricity comes from Canada... I think you have been misinformed... see attachment.

As to a lot of the other things you mentioned... I think that a grain of salt needs to go with a lot of that. Most of the folks on this forum have at least some college education, and can see that you must not be using the same search engine as most on this forum...

I hope you are able to read all the way through this, it's rather long. I do agree with you, people should learn to use search engines.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...__sqlZf00jfUFG

[Richard]

And here is more

Canada's extensive power grid offer a stable source of clean electricity for many northern states. By purchasing this energy, as opposed to building more coal plants, the U.S. is working towards its goal of reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

Canada's main customers are New England, New York, the Midwestern states and the Pacific Northwest. The provinces that export the most are Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba and British Columbia.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/where...goes-1.1109321

It is easy for the power company to advertise,we are going green,by simply purchasing power from Canada.

So who is then really control if the switch?

[Dumpling]

This piece of info is dated. It is from 2003 which was the
year of the Great Blackout.

https://apnews.com/article/d0e43e4a1...e77291b1b5eb51

I found it because I was wondering whether there is an electrical
grid interconnection between Detroit and Windsor. There is.
It is called the "Lake Erie Loop".

When the River Rouge Coal Fired DTE plant was at full power it
most likely did supply energy to Canadians for their space heaters
for their Polar Vortex conditions.

So if the "Lake Erie Loop" has been well maintained and upgraded
since 2003 and the Canadian utilities have added and maintained
power generating facilities it's all good.

[Richard]

I think they are like us,aging grid that costs trillions to replace.

You can build all the windmills and shut down all the plants you want in the name of green but at the end of the day the weak link will be in the distribution of that power.

Green energy or not Mother Nature can shut it down.

Its all kinda like putting the cart before the horse and about some people making billions selling a product without the means to deliver it.

Even with the hardening of the grid against attacks through cyber warfare,like in the recent pipeline occurrence.

Years ago a study commission estimated it would cost 3.5 million to secure the grid but yet as of today nobody has allocated the funds to do that,you have to wonder why.

Its kinda like,I swapped all the light bulbs out in my house to LED at a increased cost because they said they operate more efficiently,they may operate more efficiently but I have yet to see a decrease in my power consumption as a result.

You could put 1000 windmills on Zug Island that would supply enough power to the city of Detroit and be green,but how are you going to transfer that power to your house?

So you also have to replace your grid,that cost money that you have to come up with,in the future do not buy into the bury the lines in the ground and pay those extra costs,because I had a house in a subdivision that buried the lines,still lost power for over 14 days after a storm,because you cannot bury the transfer stations and they are the weak link.

Thats the double wammy,they will tax us to go green then they will say,o by the way the grid cannot handle the increased demand when we add 30% more vehicles and charging stations,so you are stuck.

Is it not better that we start with creating a reliable system that can handle currant demands reliably before we start taxing it even more?

Personally I can get behind justifying a trillion dollar debt to replace our current grid so power is reliable under many different conditions while also taking into account the increased future demand while that rebuilding is taking place.

What I find it hard to get behind is all of these power companies charging the public millions while excepting billions from the federal government to go green while knowing full well the existing grid cannot handle it.

There will be a transition point in the meantime and the only answer at that time will be rolling blackouts,some can rely on their fossil fuel generators so they do not freeze to death in the name of green but Texas was a wake up call that went or is going unanswered and we need to take our green shades off.