The Suburban Experiment

[expatriate]

This Youtube channel has some of the best videos I've seen on the issues of urban decay for anyone interested enough to take a look. https://youtu.be/7IsMeKl-Sv0

[Satiricalivory]

I skimmed but so far the premise of the video is really good and spot on.

Suburban sprawl is the biggest mistake the United States ever made and it's still cannibalizing our country today. It's the cause of most of our problems and mainstream media totally ignores this monumental issue standing right in front of our faces.

[casscorridor]

I skimmed but so far the premise of the video is really good and spot on.

Suburban sprawl is the biggest mistake the United States ever made and it's still cannibalizing our country today. It's the cause of most of our problems and mainstream media totally ignores this monumental issue standing right in front of our faces.

Ponzi scheme is a great way to explain American suburban sprawl. But I'd go even further and say the entire American economy is more and more resembling a Ponzi scheme.

[Satiricalivory]

Ponzi scheme is a great way to explain American suburban sprawl. But I'd go even further and say the entire American economy is more and more resembling a Ponzi scheme.

I'd go even further. Capitalism in general is a ponzi scheme.

[Pat001]

Sprawl is a red herring. The worst mistake America made was de-industrialization. And both parties are to blame. America and Detroit were booming until we began closing thousands of factories and exporting millions of manufacturing jobs to foreign countries. When people have good paying jobs, money and hope for the future, the other problems tend to take care of themselves.

[Jimaz]

I'd go even further. Capitalism in general is a ponzi scheme.

And before its dogs chase this thread into the cornfield, I'd like to ask a serious question.

Is suburbia a necessary consequence of industrialization?

I can imagine good arguments on either side of that issue.

[Danny]

Car driving suburbia does has its municipal tax problems. It also has no lack of shopping and public park hubs while gobbling up useless farmlands.

Take a look at this map from two sprawling towns of Macomb TWP. and Canton TWP.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6742.../data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3118.../data=!3m1!1e3


What an urban ponzi scheme! It works sucking up people's hard working money. I've been to those areas. Can't get to local shopping hub without driving a car.

[Danny]

And before its dogs chase this thread into the cornfield, I'd like to ask a serious question.

Is suburbia a necessary consequence of industrialization?

I can imagine good arguments on either side of that issue.

Yes it did... In the Metro Detroit Area after WWII the birth of Automation Alley starts when Ford, Chrysler, GM, AMC, and many more were buying cheap unless farmland and build their plants and screw Detroit! Along came suburban sprawl brought to you by The FHA and G.I. Bill giving to former WWII soldiers [[Mostly White soldiers) to buy their Levittown-esque cookie cutters and hopping their 1952 Chrysler to the plant five days a week and come home to see their wives making dinner and hug their kids.


And what about the urban cities? Since the suburbs were built for mostly White folks, Black folks and Hispanics [[mostly) just buy the old hoods and grow. While at the same time, their old homes where white families used to live feel into disrepair. Slumlords cheating them out of their rents. The the job hubs closed and so does those walkable businesses. Families getting broken, robberies, gangs and then come the flow of heroine and crack.

We see this never ending problem here in Metro Detroit Area today.

[Pat001]

I'd go even further. Capitalism in general is a ponzi scheme.

The problem with capitalism is capitalists. The problem with socialism is socialism.

[bartocktoo]

the problem with capitalism is capitalists. The problem with socialism is socialism.

ding ding ding!

[Satiricalivory]

The problem with capitalism is capitalists. The problem with socialism is socialism.

The problem with this whole comment is that it makes zero sense.

[Satiricalivory]

Sprawl is a red herring. The worst mistake America made was de-industrialization. And both parties are to blame. America and Detroit were booming until we began closing thousands of factories and exporting millions of manufacturing jobs to foreign countries. When people have good paying jobs, money and hope for the future, the other problems tend to take care of themselves.

Wrong, Detroit and every US city's issue is forced government-subsidized sprawl. De-industrialization is just a bullshit media talking point to distract you from the real problem, a problem we could easily fix if all levels of government and American culture wasn't so screwed up.

Detroit still has an economy the size of Hong Kong and over 5 million people. There was never a reason to cannibalize the city for suburbs.

[EastsideAl]

Detroit still has an economy the size of Hong Kong and over 5 million people. There was never a reason to cannibalize the city for suburbs.

Still looking for that upvote button.

But the statement should be that there was never a good reason. Sadly though, I think we all know the reason why, and it is an extremely stupid one.

[Hamtragedy]

Modernizing auto factories from multiple 6 story monoliths to sprawling complexes became difficult in an area approaching 2 million inhabitants. This and not allowing annexation [[per state constitution) and lack of cohesive or cooperative regionalization [[see Eastside Al's spot-on description above) led to a downward out-of-control spiral we are still unwilling to deal with.

Then there's also the issue of Detroit wanting cheaper steel, which Pittsburgh strained to produce, so it was sourced elsewhere. Another downward out of control global spiral we are still unwilling to deal with. Union bashing in 3..2..1.........

[Hamtragedy]

The problem with capitalism is capitalists. The problem with socialism is socialism.

Feel free to make your own roads.

[Richard]

That should be easy enough,they will all be dirt again after petro products are outlawed.

If Detroit was listed as the highest level of African American home ownership in the country along with the highest level of income for African Americans in the country,why was it effected so much when the suburban push was on?

[Pat001]

That should be easy enough,they will all be dirt again after petro products are outlawed.

If I owned a Tesla I'd slap a bumper sticker on it that says, "Powered by clean coal."

[Hermod]

Feel free to make your own roads.

There is a difference between governments services [[roads, police, and schools) and government ownership of the means of production. Government is funded by leaching off of productivity. When government owns everything, productivity vanishes.

[Detroit Stylin]

That should be easy enough,they will all be dirt again after petro products are outlawed.

If Detroit was listed as the highest level of African American home ownership in the country along with the highest level of income for African Americans in the country,why was it effected so much when the suburban push was on?

Because with massive deindustrialization and the introduction of crack to inner cities across the nation that led to crime of epic proportions and a bad economy that was the early to mid eighties then yeah.....

[Richard]

Because with massive deindustrialization and the introduction of crack to inner cities across the nation that led to crime of epic proportions and a bad economy that was the early to mid eighties then yeah.....

Agreed,I remember a devastated Minneapolis in the 70s because of heroin.

I also remember Miami looking like Detroit until the crack trade built the skyline.

My,kinda of a question was more so going back a few years earlier then that.

At the time time of “white flight” Detroit was in the unique position of being the only city in the country with the largest African American home ownership and the highest wage.

So going into the aspect of white flight causing disinvestment that helped or accelerated the down slide,I was wondering more to what extent that role played.

If one really thinks about it,a lot of cities out there were devastated,some even worse then Detroit,did not even start to catch up until 15 or so years ago.

There are also cities that have and continue to rebuild and are very productive,regardless of the suburbs impact.

On the subject of bumper stickers,I remember the one that said- hungry ? Eat your rice burner.

That is a sharp reality in Detroit on bad choices and their impact long term.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...
If Detroit was listed as the highest level of African American home ownership in the country along with the highest level of income for African Americans in the country,why was it effected so much when the suburban push was on?

On a larger scale than most cities, and happening simultaneously...

1) De-industrialization due to the growth of the South and CA, or more simply air-conditioning.

2) Highly structured and inflexible unionized workforce [[I've always held that the problem with Unions isn't wages [[mostly), but inflexibility to change)

3) 1967 Race Riots

4) School Bussing -- and while I think the whole idea of bussing to solve racial problems is a mistake -- legal failure 'cross district bussing' meant escape to Livonia or Warren was really appealing to families who didn't want kids shipped far away in pursuit of some social planners dream.

So to your point, Richard, relatively high aggregative black wealth [[home ownership) and relatively high aggregate income weren't enough to paper over the rusting of the rust belt.

[Danny]

The problem with this whole comment is that it makes zero sense.

The problem with people is that fell into a real estate ponzi scheme without looking at the location, environment and demographics.

You could buy a house, condo or apt. in a fine stable community and suddenly your home is part of the urban crime, flooded areas, not close to shopping hubs and parks and sending your kid to rough public school or a school that your kids does not fit in with the peer cliques.

[Richard]

I think a lot of it has to do with how individuals think and feel,at that point city’s were old and crowded,the hustle and bustle of the city.

That is why places like Belle Isle was popular,it gave a moment of escape,the suburbs were fresh and clean with larger lots and space,some felt that provided that moment of escape but on a daily basis.

I think it was the wrong approach to use the pitting of the city against the suburbs,because you are not going to change peoples minds,the worst was to implement that whole urban renewal farse that destroyed the fabric and identify of many cities.

I think those in leadership should have concentrated on fixing their own house instead of using scapegoats that wasted time and energy.

Whoever thought and supported slamming freeways through the middle of cities was the answer,should have never been allowed near a pen.

[casscorridor]

Important to remember that post-war suburbanization was deliberately encouraged by the Federal Housing Administration. They assisted many people in purchasing homes for the first time, but they stipulated that development follow a suburban form. In an alternative timeline, we could see different policies that encouraged improving and diversifying existing urban neighborhoods rather than their wholesale destruction via urban renewal and freeway expansion.

[bust]

...the problem with Unions isn't wages [[mostly), but inflexibility to change....

Upon this point we fully agree.
Let's celebrate our harmony!