Packard to be demolished?

**Seven&wyo** · October-29-20, 04:36 PM

I don’t have a Crains subscription, but it looks like the Peruvian shithead is going to take down the the plant for industrial space. I have mixed feelings on this one, on one hand I wish the packard would come back to life on the other I couldn’t imagine a scenario where someone could get the financing for such a project either.

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-e...ng-demolitions

**Richard** · October-29-20, 04:48 PM

I had finance for it 8 years ago,everything is relevant according to intended use.

It was always zoned industrial and even when they changed to the new city future plans that zone was to remain heavy light industrial zoning.

So when it was announced that the concept was going to be mixed retail with living space it was a dud from the start,no matter how it looks,there was a lot of solid bones there where it could have been used as what it was built for,when one starts trying to create a ground breaking scenario and try to wow everybody,it comes with a heavy price tag.

It was in simple form for manufacturing and distribution as it was,try and make it complicated and it becomes complicated.

I understand the new owners frustration with the complexity of that properties.

They call it the Packard Plant but it is comprised of over 100 assembled lots,each one is its own identity and legal description,some have been bought and sold or taken by the city in the past.

The legal description for the title company is over 100 pages long,so you may have bought one building but in reality 1/2 of it may fall into the next lot so you really only own 1/2 of that building.

Even if the current owner wants to demolish it he cannot,because most of the parcels have a building built on it that may cover 3 parcels,so it could be that he can only demolish 10’ of a building.

One would think that the first order of business would be for the city to sit down and once and for all either make it one solid parcel by combining all of the lots,until then it’s fate will always be sealed as a cluster pluck.

Its kinda hard to invest in something,let alone risk other investors money or retirement when you do not even own the entire building.

Nobody is going to rebuild half of a building while the other half crumbles away.

That is why the arch collapsed,it was attached to a building the city owned and not what this guy bought,they would have both gotten together and rebuilt the thing jointly.

The city does not have the funds for that,until it is a solid parcel it will always be a dud,unless a group of individuals got together and joint purchase as a co-op of sorts or a group of manufacturers.

**Danny** · October-29-20, 05:14 PM

The Packard Plant remains like the Greek Pantheon as it stands.

**Ray1936** · October-29-20, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

The Packard Plant remains like the Greek Pantheon as it stands.

The Greek Pantheon, even in its current shape, remains beautiful. There is not one friggin' shred of beauty in the Packard multilith. [[Multilith: Plural of Monolith.)

**401don** · October-29-20, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

I don’t have a Crains subscription, but it looks like the Peruvian shithead is going to take down the the plant for industrial space. I have mixed feelings on this one, on one hand I wish the packard would come back to life on the other I couldn’t imagine a scenario where someone could get the financing for such a project either.

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/real-e...ng-demolitions

So he's a shithead for being the only one to invest money and try like hell for several years to do something with that site after it sat empty for about 50 years?

**Richard** · October-29-20, 06:05 PM

Along those many limbs of the family tree I had a distant realitive that went to Detroit in 1913 to pitch his vision of a highway that stretched from the east coast to the west coast.

Those who pledged funds were Henry Joy then president of the Packard motor car company,Frank Seiberling of President of Goodyear tires and with the exception of Henry Ford who figured it was the governments job all the other auto manufacturers and suppliers chipped in funds to build the road.

It was called the Lincoln highway and without Detroit it would not have happened.

July 1st 1913 Henry Joy formed the Lincoln Highway commission and it became official.

See how all roads lead to Detroit,even the ones that did not actually go there.

It may be a broken down building in need of a little TLC but it still is an important part of this country’s history and a testament as to how and why it was built in the first place.

**Richard** · October-29-20, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

So he's a shithead for being the only one to invest money and try like hell for several years to do something with that site after it sat empty for about 50 years?

There is a question of commitment amongst some,at the same time he was purchasing and or trying to purchase other similar shape properties.

They rejected his offer for the Kelvinator building under the guise of Packard not progressing,and that property is arguably in way worse shape then Packard.

It seemed like it was more about assembling investors for properties verses actually finishing one.

It was marketed right from the state as wanting to put residential units in when it was well known no way the city was ever going to allow it.

Just like all of the hooplas about putting the rave club in fisher body,the city would have never allowed it,so why the big media storm unless you are putting of grandiose plans in order to draw investors.

Most would view that as deceptive.

Serious due diligence shows you cannot do anything with it as it is legal wise and it keeps getting marketed as a singular piece of property.

Its like buying a house on a block and expecting every other house on the street to be a part of the package,then saying wow I did not know the others did not come with the deal.

It’s like borderline ponzi stuff.

The answer is not to demolish it,it is not the buildings fault it is being used and pawned off from one sucker to another.

The other angle could be,this is a threat to the other parcel owners,kick up to the plate or I am just going to demolish my half which leaves your half valueless,because half of your building is attached to mine and it will be structuraly compromised when I demolish my side.

Until you get to the city owned properties,no way in the world is the city going to say,yea okay,they did offer them their parcels but only after and if they saw serious progress on the rest,which was smart on the city’s side of things.

Like the arch,one end of it the city owns that building,the other end he owns that building,so what does one do,rebuild half of an arch?

In the end nobody rebuilds it and the city suffers another historic loss.

**13606Cedargrove** · October-29-20, 06:30 PM

Why was this messy parcel arrangement as Richard describes, not rationalized into a more workable arrangement? It seems the opportunity exists while the property is under one owner.

**Zacha341** · October-29-20, 08:15 PM

Interesting sorta. There's a side of me that is like 'tear it down already...'

What is the technique to get around the subscription only read 'firewall' to read the Crains article again?

**Richard** · October-30-20, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by 13606Cedargrove

Why was this messy parcel arrangement as Richard describes, not rationalized into a more workable arrangement? It seems the opportunity exists while the property is under one owner.

Thats what was being worked on at the time of the auction,nobody was supposed to actually bid on it,the auction was just supposed to be a formality,the one in Texas got smart and walked but this guy jumped into something that he really had no business getting involved in out of nowhere.

Remember how after he bought it at the sale he got upset because he had to then work out a separate deal to acquire more parcels,he had thought because it was listed as Packard Plant that it includes the whole complex,the city owns some but rightly so they are not giving them up until they see some serious results.

Others own parcels in there and they will hold out trying to capitalize even more so the last one.

So outside of the mob buying it and making offers one cannot refuse for the remaining parcels it is going to be hard to find a buyer in that high risk situation.

Its a shame,that property has a lot of potential to bring diversity and good paying jobs to the city but it still has to be done economical and make sense to investors,long dragging out parcel disputes and holdouts gets really expensive and adds months which equals time and money before you can open the doors.

In retrospect the actual condition of it is irrelevant.

He could probably split up the parcels and sell them off separate,which is what created the mess in the first place,but that is bad for the city future because the land size accommodates a large business that needs that space and there is not many parcels that size in the city.

But then that would be like a city declaring bankruptcy and selling off all its accets in a fire sale,short term solutions in moments of desperation leads to long term ramifications for things that are supposed to be viewed as long term bigger picture stuff.

But really,who pays $400k for a piece of property at an auction without really knowing what it includes,then gets mad because they did not do their due-diligence first.

Its just not the property,it’s a large piece of the cities history and a part of the city and what happens there effects the city residents one way or another,one really needs to put a little more thought into,wow it’s a cheap signature property $400k is a cheap way to get my name out there in order to have some notoriety,in order to draw investors for other properties in the city and other cities.

**pocketchange** · October-30-20, 07:14 AM

The story not behind a paywall

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...on/6077326002/

And the listing

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1580...601/?stid=ngkf

**13606Cedargrove** · October-30-20, 09:42 AM

Richard: Thank you for the background. So, it is OK to declare imminent domain on a vibrant neighborhood such as Poletown to build a plant, but here, the powers that be are seemingly powerless to rationalize this potentially valuable property. Just another sad chapter in the history of a once great city.

**JonWylie** · October-30-20, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by 13606Cedargrove

Richard: Thank you for the background. So, it is OK to declare imminent domain on a vibrant neighborhood such as Poletown to build a plant, but here, the powers that be are seemingly powerless to rationalize this potentially valuable property. Just another sad chapter in the history of a once great city.

Still a great city. What happens to the Packard Plant is a concern of very few people who live and work in the city. It would be great for it to be restored or redeveloped, but there are other extremely pressing things for the city to work on.

**Gistok** · October-30-20, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by 13606Cedargrove

Richard: Thank you for the background. So, it is OK to declare imminent domain on a vibrant neighborhood such as Poletown to build a plant, but here, the powers that be are seemingly powerless to rationalize this potentially valuable property. Just another sad chapter in the history of a once great city.

Um... I hope this helps you to understand that Eminent Domain laws in Michigan have changed since the Poletown situation. It's why Eminent Domain could not be used after Comerica Park and Ford Field land acquisitions took place.

Packard Plant [[like LCA arena and the Chrysler-Fiat Jeep plant) is not currently eligible for Eminent Domain...

https://www.freep.com/story/money/bu...ap/3695388002/

**Richard** · October-30-20, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by JonWylie

Still a great city. What happens to the Packard Plant is a concern of very few people who live and work in the city. It would be great for it to be restored or redeveloped, but there are other extremely pressing things for the city to work on.

Cities progress by thinking 10-20-30 years in advance while also dealing with today,that’s the reason the city is as it is,because of complacency.

I would disagree that Packard Plant effects very few in Detroit,as it is currently yes,behind in city taxes then even more so because somebody else has to make up the shortfall or go without.

Any large properties such as that is a concern for the city because they can become employment centers that provide a good wage base.

Even something like the university club was,untapped potential in the wrong hands,it is kinda the cities job to do what it takes in order to encourage development in best interest of its citizens.

1960s 1970s urban renewal based on scorch and burn in the name of progress was already tried across the country and it destroyed the fabric of many a city that is still feeling the repercussions today.

The whole demolish your way into the future gives you nothing but a sea of parking lots.

Parking lots are lazy,they just sit there,they do not visit restaurants and other local businesses,they do zero to provide a vibrant community like actual buildings do.

**casscorridor** · October-30-20, 11:57 PM

The article says portions of it could be demolished if they find a tenant. So yeah, not gonna to happen.

**EastsideAl** · October-31-20, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

So he's a shithead for being the only one to invest money and try like hell for several years to do something with that site after it sat empty for about 50 years?

Slight correction. The Packard property has only been vacant since 1998-99. That's when the city, following a botched-up tax foreclosure, evicted over 80 going businesses from the site for its stillborn "development" plans.

**13606Cedargrove** · November-02-20, 10:38 AM

Gistok: I appreciate the update on the Eminent Domain laws in Michigan. The changes are probably for the best considering what happened in Poletown and other places in Michigan and around the U.S. where private property has been swept aside for questionable reasons.

I am a "where there's a will there's a way" guy. I am looking for the will on the part of the leaders in Detroit and Michigan to solve this, and it can be solved.

**313WX** · November-02-20, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

The article says portions of it could be demolished if they find a tenant. So yeah, not gonna to happen.

Seems like the perfect spot for more low wage distribution centers, especially with the unnecessary I-94 expansion.

I'm sure Mike Duggan is salivating at the thought.

**313WX** · November-02-20, 12:37 PM

BTW, I find it funny this shocks anyone.

The Packard Plant is way too gone far gone to be restored to its prior state, at least without costing more money than I think any developer is willing to spend.

That said, it was always the perfect land grab for "future development." Problem is, and what Detroit's City Council and Mayor fail to understand, is that you can't control what goes up on land once a private developer takes ahold of it.

**JonWylie** · November-02-20, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

BTW, I find it funny this shocks anyone.

The Packard Plant is way too gone far gone to be restored to its prior state, at least without costing more money than I think any developer is willing to spend.

That said, it was always the perfect land grab for "future development." Problem is, and what Detroit's City Council and Mayor fail to understand, is that you can't control what goes up on land once a private developer takes ahold of it.

The county could probably foreclose on it for not paying taxes/bills.

**EastsideAl** · November-02-20, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by JonWylie

The county could probably foreclose on it for not paying taxes/bills.

That's what started this whole mess. The city's botched tax foreclosure on the property back in 1999. Which ended up with 87 rent-paying businesses evicted, a clouded title and endless lawsuits, a stillborn deal with a business that moved elsewhere, a vacant and unguarded property open to "explorers" and strippers for years, and a questionable sale to an outside "developer" who could never afford to actually develop the site.

**Ray1936** · November-02-20, 03:42 PM

Sleepy this morning, and when I clicked on the DYes home page I thought I saw "2020 Detroit Lions to be Demolished". Then I was able to "unmerge" the two headings................

**Richard** · November-02-20, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

That's what started this whole mess. The city's botched tax foreclosure on the property back in 1999. Which ended up with 87 rent-paying businesses evicted, a clouded title and endless lawsuits, a stillborn deal with a business that moved elsewhere, a vacant and unguarded property open to "explorers" and strippers for years, and a questionable sale to an outside "developer" who could never afford to actually develop the site.

Nice summary,that place could win an award for the most dramatic brick n mortar building in the country.

Its only concrete and rebar,it not like it would take hundreds of millions to put in service.

Wrong time to be trying the build to suit route.

**renf** · November-03-20, 01:59 PM

Dakkota Integrated systems of Brighton purchased the 32 acre campus of Kettering High School for $2.6 million in early 2019. Kettering High is just a short walk from the Packard Plant. Dakkota has already constructed a
$55 million new building where there will have 625 people assembling interiors for the Fiat Chrysler vehicles to be built at the new Jefferson North Plant. Does this suggest there is a demand for space for new plants on the east side of Detroit? The Packard Plant has rail service but Kettering High does not.

Am I correct in thinking that the Packard plants on both sides of Grand Boulevard designed by Albert Kahn were built so that additional floors could be added if needed?