Roundabouts

**expatriate** · October-12-20, 10:47 AM

I quite like the idea of turning the horrible Morass/Mack intersection into a roundabout or rotary or whatever we decide to call them. I have driven on them here and in other countries and find them the most efficient way of moving traffic, once you get used to them. They avoid unnecessary starting and stopping as well as being more aesthetic, in that the center provides an opportunity for sculpture or plantings. Detroit's very wide avenues could be well improved by the addition of a few more in strategic locations.

https://www.grossepointenews.com/art...lan-finalized/

**JonWylie** · October-12-20, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by expatriate

I quite like the idea of turning the horrible Morass/Mack intersection into a roundabout or rotary or whatever we decide to call them. I have driven on them here and in other countries and find them the most efficient way of moving traffic, once you get used to them. They avoid unnecessary starting and stopping as well as being more aesthetic, in that the center provides an opportunity for sculpture or plantings. Detroit's very wide avenues could be well improved by the addition of a few more in strategic locations.

https://www.grossepointenews.com/art...lan-finalized/

So long as they are designed with bikes and pedestrians in mind, like this one has, I'm a huge fan

**Ray1936** · October-12-20, 11:09 AM

Roundabouts were introduced by the British in retaliation for their losses in a couple of wars we had with them.

**401don** · October-12-20, 12:55 PM

I think they're ideal for intersections that aren't very busy and so Detroit would have a lot of suitable locations. I've also driven in them in heavy traffic in Florida and Cape Cod and found them a nightmare to merge into, probably because I'm just not used to them.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · October-12-20, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

I think they're ideal for intersections that aren't very busy and so Detroit would have a lot of suitable locations. I've also driven in them in heavy traffic in Florida and Cape Cod and found them a nightmare to merge into, probably because I'm just not used to them.

This, and the fact that most senior drivers get confused by them. Most of the accidents that happen [[which is rare) involve older drivers.

**Maof** · October-12-20, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

I think they're ideal for intersections that aren't very busy and so Detroit would have a lot of suitable locations. I've also driven in them in heavy traffic in Florida and Cape Cod and found them a nightmare to merge into, probably because I'm just not used to them.

They're called rotaries in Massachusetts. It's a whole new ball game out there. I drove them 30 years ago and it was hell.

My daughter lives in Boston and I leave the driving to her or my husband. It's every man for himself.

**Meddle** · October-12-20, 02:08 PM

This Eurojunk needs to be outlawed.

**401don** · October-12-20, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid

This, and the fact that most senior drivers get confused by them. Most of the accidents that happen [[which is rare) involve older drivers.

Hey! I resemble that remark.

**Gistok** · October-12-20, 02:32 PM

I do like the roundabout concept [[love the ones on Utica Rd. and Romeo Plank Rd. in Macomb Twp. [[also the huge one at 18 1/2 Mile & Van Dyke). I also think that E. Jefferson and E. Grand Blvd. at the entrance to Belle Isle would be well suited for a large roundabout to get rid of all those left turn issues.

Roundabouts are known for their continuous flow... I can see that the current pedestrian friendly 7-Mack intersection, might create a problem for traffic, if it's narrowed down, and then further slowed due to pedestrian stoppages.

Also, if I were riding my bike in that area, I would want to avoid that intersection as well.

Like I said... narrowing down all the roadways going into that intersection and then adding pedestrians into the mix... would give me pause.

P.S. I wonder if the NIMBY crowd in the Grosse Pointe Farms is ever going to allow the park-like southern corner of that interchange [[former site of a Sears outlet, Hughes Hatcher and Kroger stores) be developed, since it is a prime development corner.

**Scottathew** · October-12-20, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

This Eurojunk needs to be outlawed.

Your language indicates hostility toward things because they're from Europe. That's a bad look. Xenophobia will cause us to miss out on things like roundabouts, which save lives.

Rochester Hills has implemented several roundabouts with great success. Two more roundabouts are slated for either side of Yates Cider Mill [[Dequindre\Avon\23 Mile). More are being talked about for other intersections.

I'm glad to see we're implementing more roundabouts here in metro Detroit.

**Danny** · October-12-20, 02:48 PM

I see a roundabout in Southfield at Civic Center Drive and Evergreen Rd. It's working very good. I like to see one in Detroit.

**Gistok** · October-12-20, 02:56 PM

Scottathew, I agree...

Meddle, have you ever even been to Europe?
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/171...dness-and-many

The amount of fuel "idling" in cars at traffic lights... cumulatively will save a lot of fossil fuels... as well as time wasted at intersections.... over the long run.

I went to Oxford England for 3 summers [[college courses) in the 1989-94 era, and they have roundabouts all along the ring road surrounding the city. Became a believer early on...

**EGrant** · October-12-20, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I do like the roundabout concept [[love the ones on Utica Rd. and Romeo Plank Rd. in Macomb Twp. [[also the huge one at 18 1/2 Mile & Van Dyke).

That intersection at 19 and Romeo Plank was a nightmare when school or an event was going on at Chippewa Valley, before they added the roundabout. Vastly better now.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · October-12-20, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Scottathew

Your language indicates hostility toward things because they're from Europe. That's a bad look. Xenophobia will cause us to miss out on things like roundabouts, which save lives.

Rochester Hills has implemented several roundabouts with great success. Two more roundabouts are slated for either side of Yates Cider Mill [[Dequindre\Avon\23 Mile). More are be talked about for other intersections.

I'm glad to see we're implementing more roundabouts here in metro Detroit.

But we are ‘Muricans and we know more than anybody!

**401don** · October-12-20, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I went to Oxford England for 3 summers [[college courses) in the 1989-94 era, and they have roundabouts all along the ring road surrounding the city. Became a believer early on...

Combining left lane driving with roundabouts would be all kinds of fun for tourists!

**DetroitSoldier** · October-12-20, 04:12 PM

Proper engineering and driver education make roundabouts very safe and efficient compared to overwhelmed traditional four way intersections. The problem is that people in this area don't adapt well to change, despite being relatively good drivers. I do hope this is successful because the intersection as it is right now is terrible.

As for the size and volume of the circle, that is irrelevant. I've driven roundabouts around the world with 10+ lanes and hundreds of cars a minute. A two or three lane roundabout should not be too hard to figure out even with our limited experience with them.

**Jason** · October-12-20, 05:28 PM

Here's the link to their website: https://www.mackaveplan.com/

I didn't realize this was happening and I'm all for the improvements.

**Király** · October-12-20, 06:19 PM

Roundabouts are way better than sitting at a red light for a full minute even when there are no other vehicles in sight.

Roundabout = go when you can, stop when you need to
Traffic lights = go when you can, stop when you need to, and also stop when you don't need to but the light says to stop anyway

**bust** · October-12-20, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

P.S. I wonder if the NIMBY crowd in the Grosse Pointe Farms is ever going to allow the park-like southern corner of that interchange [[former site of a Sears outlet, Hughes Hatcher and Kroger stores) be developed, since it is a prime development corner.

That's not the problem.

It has been proposed [[multiple times) that the empty corner be developed for municipal functions, including moving the GPF police station there from its longtime location where it's practically hidden in a quiet neighborhood on Kerby. The area around Mack/Moross suffers many more break-ins and other property crimes, and it's hoped a greater police presence will reduce that. Besides, there are many fewer people and just a lot less activity around the old station anyway. But the people around the old station are a lot richer, and they keep blocking the initiative. They don't want the station further away, they want it to stay in their back yard.

I hope common sense wins the day, but it's been decades that it hasn't.

Edit: As far as that intersection becoming a roundabout, the design they proposed surprises me. Usually their focus is on moving as many cars through without interruption, and they're terrible for pedestrians. But this one would calm the traffic and would improve the walking experience, as long as drivers respect the right of way of pedestrians on the crosswalks. I'm not sure if that would happen, and if so how that wouldn't cause cars to get backed up in the circle. There aren't good alternatives, but maybe it would work by discouraging enough drivers from heading there in the first place?

**Gistok** · October-12-20, 08:07 PM

^^ Yup... hidden away on Kerby Rd. is an understatement...

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4061...7i16384!8i8192

**expatriate** · October-13-20, 09:06 AM

Agreed. Jefferson/Grand Blvd. would be a perfect candidate, but there are many other opportunities on the incredibly wide avenues like Gratiot, Grand River, Michigan and perhaps even Woodward/8 Mile.

**401don** · October-13-20, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by expatriate

Agreed. Jefferson/Grand Blvd. would be a perfect candidate, but there are many other opportunities on the incredibly wide avenues like Gratiot, Grand River, Michigan and perhaps even Woodward/8 Mile.

It's been a few years since I've been on one, and it's usually in places with very few pedestrians, but I can't remember exactly how do roundabouts handle them? When there's traffic, cars wait for their opening and then often speed into the roundabout. Do they have to watch for a pedestrian before exiting the other side? Do they stop or continue around again until it's clear?

**1953** · October-13-20, 10:21 AM

I am opposed to roundabouts. They degrade the urban experience.

1953

**Gistok** · October-13-20, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by 1953

I am opposed to roundabouts. They degrade the urban experience.

1953

Not always... Campus Martius is an odd shaped roundabout in the very heart of Detroit.

And NYC Columbus Circle is a hive of activity [[I would love something like this at the entrance to Belle Isle)....

**bust** · October-13-20, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

It's been a few years since I've been on one, and it's usually in places with very few pedestrians, but I can't remember exactly how do roundabouts handle them? When there's traffic, cars wait for their opening and then often speed into the roundabout. Do they have to watch for a pedestrian before exiting the other side? Do they stop or continue around again until it's clear?

Roundabouts have been around a lot longer than cars and this wasn't a problem when pedestrians shared the road with horses, buggies, and pushcarts. The later addition of streetcars caused some complications. But ever since roundabouts were redesigned for cars they're usually terrible for pedestrians, who rely on stop signals to cross the road safely, and stopping traffic defeats the goal of keeping cars moving freely. I used to live near Grand Army Plaza in Brooklyn, which has a big roundabout with traffic lights, crosswalks, and bike lanes, and year after year it's always among the locations for crashes, pedestrian injuries, and deaths -- even with stoplights, and before they added the bike lanes.

It's ambitious to propose a roundabout for Mack and Moross without traffic lights. But it's hard to imagine cars reliably stopping for pedestrians in the crosswalks, and were they to, it's hard to imagine how that won't sometimes back traffic up into the circle and cause a mess. Imagine using the roundabout for a right turn. You'd have two crosswalks to deal with, one immediately before entering the circle and seconds later another immediately after exiting to the right. It would be dangerous for everyone. I can't see that without traffic lights or prohibiting pedestrians from crossing there.

They're absent in the illustration, but maybe traffic lights are part of the plan. It would make it much better for pedestrians, and safer for everyone. But would it reduce traffic? Maybe by discouraging it there in the first place.