Is Downtown at Risk of Going Backwards?

[K-slice]

As someone who frequents downtown Detroit on the weekends and stays until after dark, I want to see if anyone else has felt substantially less safe this summer than at any point in the recent past.

Last night I encountered mini bikes speeding down the sidewalk, packs of circling non-street legal 4 wheelers, several cars with people hanging out every window, heroine being done openly in CM Park, among other examples of rude, reckless, and inconsiderate behavior.

The media keeps telling us "this is the new normal" and my worry is if that's true we'll see all the positive steps made in the last 10 or so years backtracked pretty quickly. Who wants to stroll down woodward with mini bikes flying by you, or eat dinner watching 4 wheelers circling the block.

Has anyone else noticed this? If so what are your thoughts on its continuation? Will it have any long term effects on the development of downtown?

[401don]

As someone who frequents downtown Detroit on the weekends and stays until after dark, I want to see if anyone else has felt substantially less safe this summer than at any point in the recent past.

Last night I encountered mini bikes speeding down the sidewalk, packs of circling non-street legal 4 wheelers, several cars with people hanging out every window, heroine being done openly in CM Park, among other examples of rude, reckless, and inconsiderate behavior.

The media keeps telling us "this is the new normal" and my worry is if that's true we'll see all the positive steps made in the last 10 or so years backtracked pretty quickly. Who wants to stroll down woodward with mini bikes flying by you, or eat dinner watching 4 wheelers circling the block.

Has anyone else noticed this? If so what are your thoughts on its continuation? Will it have any long term effects on the development of downtown?

I don't think there's any reason to believe it's the new normal.
If and when downtowns everywhere return to normal retail, office and pedestrian volumes things should calm down. I assume there's less police patrolling the downtown streets when they are so "quiet" and therefore the rabble-rousers are out in force because they have nothing else to do and feel they can get away with it.

[Lowell]

I was downtown about a week ago, albeit in the afternoon, and was pleasantly surprised how bustling it was with people walking about and sidewalk dining spots busy. It wasn't as busy as I would expect it to be in non-pandemic times but strikingly different from the bleak tour I did in April when it resembled a ghost town.

Here's a view of Morello outside the Shinola Hotel at Grand River and Woodward. [click/tap to magnify]

[Satiricalivory]

No, as long at the Ross and Gilberts and others of the world keep investing in it there is no chance of it slipping back.

[iheartthed]

There is a risk but it won't be because a few kids are downtown acting stupid.

[MrChrome]

As someone who frequents downtown Detroit on the weekends and stays until after dark, I want to see if anyone else has felt substantially less safe this summer than at any point in the recent past.

Last night I encountered mini bikes speeding down the sidewalk, packs of circling non-street legal 4 wheelers, several cars with people hanging out every window, heroine being done openly in CM Park, among other examples of rude, reckless, and inconsiderate behavior.

Downtowner of 9 years here. The things you mention happen every summer, and then die off as the weather gets colder.

This summer does feel significantly worse though. I'm barely comfortable walking home from a bar after dark anymore. There are folks just hanging out on every corner, looking to cause trouble.

[djtomt]

There is a risk but it won't be because a few kids are downtown acting stupid.

It's not just a few, it's a LOT. If you were to go downtown on a Saturday night you'd think the Super Bowl was in town based on all the people on the streets, in parking lots, etc. But only a small percentage of those folks are patronizing the businesses due to capacity restrictions etc.

There are a TON of people out on the street, cars, scooters, whatever. A lot of bad behavior as expected when crowds that size congregate, and some of it is out in the open. I'm guessing more police presence is necessary, but then we get into manpower issues etc.

This happens every summer, but not to this degree. There is definitely a vibe in the air - a lot of people causing trouble and getting away with it. I can definitely see how some feel unsafe.

Will be interesting to see what happens once the weather changes. I'm guessing a lot of this will go away once it gets cold.

[Satiricalivory]

So we're complaining that there are too many people enjoying themselves downtown now? Would you prefer the 2003 ghost town it used to be?

I don't see a problem with people naturally gravitating downtown to enjoy life, so that means it's not Gilbert-town after all it's the true heart of the city.

[softailrider]

So we're complaining that there are too many people enjoying themselves downtown now? Would you prefer the 2003 ghost town it used to be?

I don't see a problem with people naturally gravitating downtown to enjoy life, so that means it's not Gilbert-town after all it's the true heart of the city.

I sure hope it isn’t a one way or another proposition like you describe in that first paragraph. Everybody wants a vibrant downtown area where you feel safe being there. If average type people go downtown and feel like there’s danger lurking on every corner, obviously it isn’t going to be good.

[iheartthed]

It's not just a few, it's a LOT. If you were to go downtown on a Saturday night you'd think the Super Bowl was in town based on all the people on the streets, in parking lots, etc. But only a small percentage of those folks are patronizing the businesses due to capacity restrictions etc.

There are a TON of people out on the street, cars, scooters, whatever. A lot of bad behavior as expected when crowds that size congregate, and some of it is out in the open. I'm guessing more police presence is necessary, but then we get into manpower issues etc.

This happens every summer, but not to this degree. There is definitely a vibe in the air - a lot of people causing trouble and getting away with it. I can definitely see how some feel unsafe.

Will be interesting to see what happens once the weather changes. I'm guessing a lot of this will go away once it gets cold.

"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."
-Yogi Berra

This obviously isn't a complaint about crowds, since I've never seen a thread like this about suburbanites coming to a game at the stadiums. It's a complaint about the wrong type of people being downtown. If we're still having that type of conversation, then downtown Detroit's renaissance was always doomed.

[Satiricalivory]

I sure hope it isn’t a one way or another proposition like you describe in that first paragraph. Everybody wants a vibrant downtown area where you feel safe being there. If average type people go downtown and feel like there’s danger lurking on every corner, obviously it isn’t going to be good.

I'm an average type person, never ever once at any time felt in danger downtown and I'm pretty sure that's how the vast majority of people feel these days.

Did something happen to anybody? Seems like a lot of concerning over nothing.

[Satiricalivory]

"Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."
-Yogi Berra

This obviously isn't a complaint about crowds, since I've never seen a thread like this about suburbanites coming to a game at the stadiums. It's a complaint about the wrong type of people being downtown. If we're still having that type of conversation, then downtown Detroit's renaissance was always doomed.

Oh please, racism in the Detroit area didn't go on a temporary leave of absence that allowed downtown to make progress. These people never stopped existing and the central city has thrived despite it. These kind of people exist in all major cities.

[401don]

I'm an average type person, never ever once at any time felt in danger downtown and I'm pretty sure that's how the vast majority of people feel these days.

Did something happen to anybody? Seems like a lot of concerning over nothing.

Not sure you can state how others feel. I used to frequent downtown in the 80's when it was a ghost town and never felt unsafe. I know that wasn't the case with tons of suburbanites at the time. You don't want that unease to return and as I stated in an earlier post, I don't think it will when the pandemic ends. Funny how Greektown used to be considered the safest place downtown and now it may be the opposite, at least late at night.

[Seven&wyo]

If New York City, San Francisco and Chicago are petrified about an exodus of yuppies and looming budget crisis, we all ought to be deeply concerned with the state of Detroit. Just today, another A1 headline in the New York Times detailing the NYC exodus to the suburbs.

New Yorkers Are Fleeing to the Suburbs: ‘The Demand Is Insane’
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/30/n...ng-demand.html


Something that isn't discussed is all the remote workers don't have to pay Detroit city income tax. If they technically worked outside of Detroit since March, that's 9 months. In other words, they only have to pay 1/4 of the typical city income tax. How's the city going to make up that shortfall? Cutting public safety, like always.

Ah yes the MSM always a trustworthy source of information. Never once have they hyperbolized, leaned in a “certain direction”, used clickbait article titles with subject matter devoid of nuance, always making sure they give us high quality news that we need to here as long as we pay them. I was downtown a few nights ago and I’m sorry but the people on this forum need to grow a pair. I was out and saw all kinds of people just enjoying downtown as usual. Black, white, pretty, ugly, big and small, were there less people? No doubt, but more than I expected for sure. Yes there are a few more characters than usual, but to conflate that with “OMG DOWNTOWN IS DYING” is a joke. Man up people.

[Seven&wyo]

Most think The New York Times is a smart, fair and reasonable paper. But when it details a pattern you don't like it's akin to Fox News hysteria? Or maybe, just maybe, they're reporting an accurate pattern.

In San Francisco, a multi-billion tech firm just paid $90M to get out of a commercial lease.

Pinterest pays $89.5 million to terminate San Francisco office lease
https://www.sfgate.com/business/arti...e-15525421.php

Not only does Detroit have this to worry about, we have a US Census count that's most certainly going to come in far under optimistic estimates. The ripple effect of that lost revenue is going to be a big blow we have to be prepared for.

Fox News is full of shit too. And I don’t know a single rational person who thinks the NYT are credible. They’re a corporatist shit brand as far as I’m concerned and no better or worse than Fox News. in regards to Pinterest I’ve never believed[[anecdotal I know) they were worth as much as they are. Matter of fact the only time I’ve ever seen them promoted is on CreateTV.

[stinkytofu]

Yes, Detroit - as all other CBDs - are absolutely going to take a step back. As companies have realized remote work is ok, many may downsize or kill office space...there will certainly be less employees downtown in the next couple years as opposed to last few. Building owners are still collecting rent, but as leases expire they'll be hurt. Of course that impacts restaurants, hotels, etc.

Look, I'm a huge Detroit lover - but anybody that doesn't realize Detroit is going to be be hurt by everything going on is ignorant. I was just talking to someone at Rock yesterday who is quite pessimistic about downtown, unfortunately.

I'm hoping the "new normal" will settle in and Detroit will find new ways for a downtown renaissance, but the short term view isn't good.

[Seven&wyo]

Yes, Detroit - as all other CBDs - are absolutely going to take a step back. As companies have realized remote work is ok, many may downsize or kill office space...there will certainly be less employees downtown in the next couple years as opposed to last few. Building owners are still collecting rent, but as leases expire they'll be hurt. Of course that impacts restaurants, hotels, etc.

Look, I'm a huge Detroit lover - but anybody that doesn't realize Detroit is going to be be hurt by everything going on is ignorant. I was just talking to someone at Rock yesterday who is quite pessimistic about downtown, unfortunately.

I'm hoping the "new normal" will settle in and Detroit will find new ways for a downtown renaissance, but the short term view isn't good.

There will definitely be closures and the year so will not be kind to anyone anywhere unfortunately, but what I’m talking about more so is the hyperbolic response of the death of downtowns everywhere. I’ve seen the same thing from people in NYC, SF, Denver and etc. I’m sure working from home may be more popular in the years to come but many companies already had it before the pandemic and people still would rather come to work. I think in the near future it just might be a little more flexible how many days a week you can work from home. It just seems like we’re living in the “Age of Hyperbole” it cant be 40 or 60 it has be either 1 or 100

[iheartthed]

I’m sure working from home may be more popular in the years to come but many companies already had it before the pandemic and people still would rather come to work. I think in the near future it just might be a little more flexible how many days a week you can work from home.

Exactly. And if the pandemic does push companies to get rid of office space, they will trade space for location. The biggest loser will be suburban office parks that get abandoned for smaller offices in a more desirable location.

[Satiricalivory]

I think places like New York are a different situation. They rely heavily on things like subways which is a small enclosed space perfect for spreading viruses. It's gonna take a long time to figure that out.

But my own personal anecdote. I have noticed a few people coming here from New York recently. There's an Instagram model who was my neighbor that I know made a permanent move here to Birmingham with her boyfriend who's from New York. Before the pandemic they were living in New York mostly.

[Satiricalivory]

Fox News is full of shit too. And I don’t know a single rational person who thinks the NYT are credible. They’re a corporatist shit brand as far as I’m concerned and no better or worse than Fox News. in regards to Pinterest I’ve never believed[[anecdotal I know) they were worth as much as they are. Matter of fact the only time I’ve ever seen them promoted is on CreateTV.

I agree completely. New York Times does not have much credibility. They are Fox News but for Liberals.

I'm not going to really worry about office space in the city until we actually start seeing some big moves out of town, which has yet to happen.

[SammyS]

Detroit may not see growth but I doubt it will see a set back. A slight cooling off while the world makes sense of this frenzy. Home offices will obviously become more popular but why should that mean moving to the suburbs? Detroit is only moving up. I see more and more young folks enjoying the city every year. A bit of harmless bike action just adds to Detroits charm.

[bust]

Ah yes the MSM always a trustworthy source of information...

Where can we get better news than from the NYT? On a daily basis, nationwide? I agree they're imperfect, but who's better? I'll happily accept sources that only cover local news.

“OMG DOWNTOWN IS DYING” is a joke. Man up people.

Downtown's not dying. It's getting real [[again). Like a filter whether you can handle it. The ones who stay are true. The ones who only see it on the local news don't know. Those who come next will profit too.

Hooliganism must not be permitted. Crack down on ATVs.

The article evo shared was about NYC, only. [[Do you know what you can get in Detroit for the price of a rundown studio apartment in NYC?)

It's true: In NYC, the pendulum has swung back toward suburbs. Temporarily. That's been a trend the past ten years or so in NYC -- for families.

But NYC stockbrokers have a truism: When your cabbie pumps a stock, sell [[if you haven't already)!

It's finally the moment we've been waiting for: NYC, more affordable.

Billionaires contribute little good to the culture or society. Many are a negative.

Very different but also negative: recent college grads. They descend from all parts. Some say it's for their careers; most often for fun. Almost all have parents who generously support them. They pay grotesque tuition. Within five years they're almost always gone.

They're privileged, and/or don't know better. They pay high rent. They've arrived in hordes.

NYC has never suffered from lack of talent. Perhaps until recently. Recently, it has suffered a trend of dystopian economics that favors the wealthiest few.

Temporarily, maybe that's ended.

Let's hope downtown attracts more talent and encourage it does. People who want the vibrancy and stimulation of a cosmopolitan city and choose Detroit instead of somewhere like NY.

Your influence is far more potent when it's not dispersed in cul-de-sacs. Your community is far more likely to be long-lasting in Detroit.

[stinkytofu]

Detroit may not see growth but I doubt it will see a set back. A slight cooling off while the world makes sense of this frenzy. Home offices will obviously become more popular but why should that mean moving to the suburbs? Detroit is only moving up. I see more and more young folks enjoying the city every year. A bit of harmless bike action just adds to Detroits charm.

I don't think there is a ton of fear that residential will take a huge hit. While there is an argument that people won't want to pay top dollar to be near their office if they don't need to be in the office, downtown is still a lively place where people will want to live. Bars, sports, concerts, etc.

The much bigger concern is office workers and the impact on a host of ancillary businesses downtown if there aren't nearly as much white collar folks down there on a daily basis.

[Colombian Dan]

Give Tesla 5 years,.. that giant sucking sound is the remaining professional class of metro Detroit heading to Texas.... the internal combustion engine is dead....

[Zacha341]

^^^ Hold up! LOL! Mine is still eh' combusting - or a least moving forward pretty fast [[200+ Miles). Toyota sedan.

I do try to keep my oil changed!