Detroit should become the San Francisco of Transgendered

**6nois** · September-08-09, 09:48 PM

As someone who lives in the Palmer Park area now and is starting to dive into its queer history a bit more I think also missing from the police response issue when people talk about the area is the toll that HIV/AIDS took on the area, and the type of psychological pain caused to survivors when many in their neighborhood were passing away and what type of effect that had in terms of people leaving. I state this because from my understand true rapid decline in the gay community in this area didn't really start until the late 1970's early 1980's. I am hoping to do more research and collect more data and personal histories on these issues in the McNichols Woodward area.

Legally speaking Detroit has been progressive in terms of LGBT issues for quite some time being among the first to pass anti discrimination ordinances. The city is still somewhat of a safe haven for the gay community and I would tend to say Ferndale's days being the "gay capitol" of the state are somewhat numbered. The true question will be if the "community" will move in any planned way and which way they move. With conversations that I have had recently I would say the city is in a prime position among many in the community to win them over. These are just observations from conversations with my social group though.

**Detroitgayhistoryguy** · September-08-09, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by 6nois

As someone who lives in the Palmer Park area now and is starting to dive into its queer history a bit more I think also missing from the police response issue when people talk about the area is the toll that HIV/AIDS took on the area, and the type of psychological pain caused to survivors when many in their neighborhood were passing away and what type of effect that had in terms of people leaving. I state this because from my understand true rapid decline in the gay community in this area didn't really start until the late 1970's early 1980's. I am hoping to do more research and collect more data and personal histories on these issues in the McNichols Woodward area.

Legally speaking Detroit has been progressive in terms of LGBT issues for quite some time being among the first to pass anti discrimination ordinances. The city is still somewhat of a safe haven for the gay community and I would tend to say Ferndale's days being the "gay capitol" of the state are somewhat numbered. The true question will be if the "community" will move in any planned way and which way they move. With conversations that I have had recently I would say the city is in a prime position among many in the community to win them over. These are just observations from conversations with my social group though.

I don't think AIDS had an effect on Palmer Park. I started going to gay bars down there in 1985 and by then most gay people had long ago fled the Palmer Park apartments. I think gay people fled Palmer Park before AIDS even came about. I think it was crime that caused them to flee.

**EastsideAl** · September-09-09, 01:24 AM

I'm not sure where the persistent rumours of "Coleman ordered the police not to come to my neighborhood" came from, but whatever his other failings - and they were many - he was not that hands on, nor that engaged with what went on in the neighborhoods. By 1985 the crack boom was underway, which raised the crime and violence rates, and stretched police thin throughout the city for the next few years. Palmer Park, with its easily rented apartments, and access to roads and population, unfortunately became one of the centers of the drug biz. And with quickly-decaying Highland Park on one side, and the increasingly ill-maintained and scary park to the north, the neighborhood there was increasingly isolated. At the same time, suburbs like Ferndale and Royal Oak, once full of aging white blue collar and middle class folks, began to beckon gays with inexpensive and available housing and commercial spaces open for nice bars, restaurants and shops..

**6nois** · September-09-09, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitgayhistoryguy

I don't think AIDS had an effect on Palmer Park. I started going to gay bars down there in 1985 and by then most gay people had long ago fled the Palmer Park apartments. I think gay people fled Palmer Park before AIDS even came about. I think it was crime that caused them to flee.

That may be the case with the apartment community, but I am aware that people within the queer community also bought homes in the area, specifically on the east side of Woodward. These people would be much more invested in the community than the renters on the West side of Woodward and thus held on much longer as well into the later 1980's, hence my theory. The renters would also largely be a younger less financially stable population than the home owners as well, just based on traditional trends. Also 1985 is quite late in terms of the timeline I set up in my pervious statement late 1970's early 1980's, the HIV AIDS epidemic also had its roots firmly held by 1983 in the U.S. Hence why I feel more room for an academic study of the queer community in the area is important. Crime was certainly an issue as well although I feel it probably did have more to do with the crack epidemic than with an mayoral order to prevent police response to the Woodward-McNichols area.

Haikoont · September-09-09, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by hudkina

This doesn't even make sense. The transgendered community is one of the smallest "minority" groups in the nation. It's like saying Detroit needs to become the San Francisco of left-handedness.

Good point. Start small. We should start with lefthanded transgendereds and grow it from there.

**RickBeall** · September-09-09, 04:26 PM

Good thread, DetMich.

**Detroitgayhistoryguy** · September-09-09, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by 6nois

That may be the case with the apartment community, but I am aware that people within the queer community also bought homes in the area, specifically on the east side of Woodward. These people would be much more invested in the community than the renters on the West side of Woodward and thus held on much longer as well into the later 1980's, hence my theory. The renters would also largely be a younger less financially stable population than the home owners as well, just based on traditional trends. Also 1985 is quite late in terms of the timeline I set up in my pervious statement late 1970's early 1980's, the HIV AIDS epidemic also had its roots firmly held by 1983 in the U.S. Hence why I feel more room for an academic study of the queer community in the area is important. Crime was certainly an issue as well although I feel it probably did have more to do with the crack epidemic than with an mayoral order to prevent police response to the Woodward-McNichols area.

I never heard of any gay guys living east of Woodward. That was really bad, I mean really bad, back in the 80s and still is. If you drive through that neighborhood now, you'll see tons of vacant lots, so many houses have been torn down. There was an Arab presence in that neighborhood and still is some, but I never heard of any gay guy living in that neighborhood. I can remember so many stories of people being robbed at gun point or shot in that neighborhood. If you went to the Gas Station bar at 7 & woodward they always had security watching the parking lot. I can remember being in the Gas Station one night and someone got shot in the doorway of the bar. Ditto for Backstage, Salute, they had security and still there was shootings, robberies and people often got there car stolen. What I'm saying is, I know and have known many older gay guys and talked about this whole area and nobody ever talked about anyone owning a house on the east side of Woodward, either north of 6 or 7 mile. I had a friend who had a rental property back in there that he bought in the early 80's, and he told me stories of how it was a war zone. He would not go there at night. If fact, I went with him one time to replace glass in the front windows from bullets that were fired in the neighborhood.

http://detroitgayhistory.blogspot.com/

**6nois** · September-09-09, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitgayhistoryguy

I never heard of any gay guys living east of Woodward. That was really bad, I mean really bad, back in the 80s and still is. If you drive through that neighborhood now, you'll see tons of vacant lots, so many houses have been torn down. There was an Arab presence in that neighborhood and still is some, but I never heard of any gay guy living in that neighborhood. I can remember so many stories of people being robbed at gun point or shot in that neighborhood. If you went to the Gas Station bar at 7 & woodward they always had security watching the parking lot. I can remember being in the Gas Station one night and someone got shot in the doorway of the bar. Ditto for Backstage, Salute, they had security and still there was shootings, robberies and people often got there car stolen. What I'm saying is, I know and have known many older gay guys and talked about this whole area and nobody ever talked about anyone owning a house on the east side of Woodward, either north of 6 or 7 mile. I had a friend who had a rental property back in there that he bought in the early 80's, and he told me stories of how it was a war zone. He would not go there at night. If fact, I went with him one time to replace glass in the front windows from bullets that were fired in the neighborhood.

http://detroitgayhistory.blogspot.com/

Well not every block between McNichols and Seven Mile is bad today, and the same was true in that time, it was worse back in the day but there are some very stable blocks between Woodward and John R and those are where gays owned houses in the area. Specifically closer to Six Mile not super close though most of the stable blocks never had housing broken up into rental properties. Oh and now you have chatted with the first that lives in that area.

**Patrick** · September-09-09, 07:43 PM

I have always wondered how Palmer Woods managed to stay almost untouched by all the shit on the east side of Woodward.

**hudkina** · September-10-09, 12:35 AM

Because it has a dedicated community of wealthy individuals...

**jtf1972** · September-10-09, 02:34 AM

As a straight guy that has no problem with homosexuals whatsover [[had a gay roommate, was on his gay bowling league, don't really give a hoot who people do whatever with, etc.) I have never got the whole "transgender" thing. Isn't it just another form of self mutilation and mental illness, like people who need to cover every inch of their body in tattoos, or the people who get implants to make themselves look similar to animals [[Catman, Lizard Man.) I don't actually even see what being "transgender" has to do with being gay. I'm sure there is a guy out there who has no attraction to men whatsoever, but got his outtie made to an innie & swears he's a lesbian!

What's wrong with loving who you are, or at least learning to love yourself as you are? Therapy could save many people... [[I'm sure that not many people get the surgeries & wake up feeling perfectly fine.)

**EastsideAl** · September-10-09, 03:52 AM

Back in the '70s I knew several gay people who lived in the area east of Woodward between 6 and 7 Mile. That area was a real mixed bag, but there was some pretty nice housing stock on several of the blocks over there. And there were several apartment buildings with roomy apartments that rented for less than the ones south of the park. It was an area where gay couples could buy houses with minimal hassle.

As I remember the area then, there were a lot of older white people, some of them professionals, on the streets with the bigger houses, many of whom had been there quite a while. Some working-class southern whites on the streets with the smaller houses. A quickly growing Chaldean presence. And a decent smattering of gays and straight young people.

A lot of the people in the area seemed to have come out of Highland Park. The Chaldean community that had once been in HP was moving up there. And I knew a few gay couples who sold their houses in HP and moved around that time in the early to mid '70s, some of them to the area north of 6 Mile. There were several gay bars, etc. on that strip along the east side of Woodward.

detmich · September-10-09, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by RickBeall

Good thread, DetMich.

Thank you RB. It is this sort of thinking outside the box, pardon the pun, that will save Detroit. A website like this helps bring these ideas to the market and get people thinkiing about how to move forward.

**cloud_wall** · September-10-09, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

Ferndale didn't "court" the gay owned businesses.

It all started when a business owner decided to open up a LGBT friendly bookstore.

"Nothing cures homophobia like the sound of a cash register ringing."

Ferndale definitely "courts" gay business. I'm not surprised that the trend started organically, but the City and existing local business owners intentionally foster a gay-friendly business environment.

6nois said:

"I would tend to say Ferndale's days being the "gay capitol" of the state are somewhat numbered."

Why do you say that? Are you thinking Detroit is next?

**izzyindetroit** · September-10-09, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by cloud_wall

Ferndale definitely "courts" gay business. I'm not surprised that the trend started organically, but the City and existing local business owners intentionally foster a gay-friendly business environment.

6nois said:

"I would tend to say Ferndale's days being the "gay capitol" of the state are somewhat numbered."

Why do you say that? Are you thinking Detroit is next?

yes, in reply to the original post, i was implying that the leaders of ferndale didn't just one day decide that they should court gay friendly businesses. it started organically, and once the residents realized the economic boost to the community, they made it a point to court more. at first the LGBT population wasn't welcomed with open arms, hence the quote within my post.

as far as ferndale's days being numbered -- ferndale is receiving an influx of straight couples between the ages of 20-30. it is only a matter of time before the city becomes gentrified with families to the point that the gay population will be forced to migrate elsewhere.

will it be detroit?? only time will tell. i could see highland park as a possible candidate for many reasons: low property values, cheap houses, beautiful architecture, etc.

**6nois** · September-10-09, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by cloud_wall

Ferndale definitely "courts" gay business. I'm not surprised that the trend started organically, but the City and existing local business owners intentionally foster a gay-friendly business environment.

6nois said:

"I would tend to say Ferndale's days being the "gay capitol" of the state are somewhat numbered."

Why do you say that? Are you thinking Detroit is next?

I say that partly because as Izzy said the influx of straight couples. But even more than that I feel Ferndales days are numbered because Ferndale is largely where more urban oriented queers choose to live and in that respect it was never really a sustainable option for the community. Royal Oak already caters to the more suburban gay market in the region and Ferndale can't compete there because the housing quality is better in R.O. What will happen I can't say for sure, but I feel that with an influx of events and things happening midtown will probably be the largest winner in terms of queer flight from Ferndale.

**hudkina** · September-10-09, 06:51 PM

I see Hamtramck becoming the "gay" neighborhood before Highland Park. Contrary to popular belief, immigrants are the original gentrifiers. The immigrants go in and stabalize a neighborhood and then the gays move in and price the immigrants out.

**Detroitej72** · September-10-09, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by hudkina

I see Hamtramck becoming the "gay" neighborhood before Highland Park. Contrary to popular belief, immigrants are the original gentrifiers. The immigrants go in and stabalize a neighborhood and then the gays move in and price the immigrants out.

The only problem with that statement is that Hamtramck has been an immigrant community since it's inception.

Also, we currently have an openly gay member on city council right now and the Muslim population has come out in full force to unseat him this fall, as they believe homosexuality is forbidden under Islam. Since their population is rapidly growing and gaining in clout, I don't see Hamtown becoming a gay capital any time soon.

EastSider · September-10-09, 08:08 PM

How much opposition is due to Scott's sexuality and how much to his level of idiot-ness? He was always riding on Gary Zych's coat tails, but that trick has been played out [[in more ways than one) and people expected substance from Mr. Klein about issues really important to Hamtramck's municipal survival.

**Detroitej72** · September-10-09, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by EastSider

How much opposition is due to Scott's sexuality and how much to his level of idiot-ness? He was always riding on Gary Zych's coat tails, but that trick has been played out [[in more ways than one) and people expected substance from Mr. Klein about issues really important to Hamtramck's municipal survival.

After the human rights ordinance went down in flames, which was Scott's baby, a large and vocal group in the Muslim Community expressed in the Citizen that they were going out in full force to see that he would be defeated at the polls.

**hudkina** · September-10-09, 08:31 PM

I don't think Hamtramck or Highland Park would ever become gay neighborhoods. I'm just saying that Hamtramck would likely be gentrified before Highland Park, despite the fact that Highland Park has the better housing stock. One of the biggest attractions for gentrification is a solid framework to build on. A giant shopping center/strip mall is hardly attractive to prospective gentrifiers...

EastSider · September-11-09, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

After the human rights ordinance went down in flames, which was Scott's baby, a large and vocal group in the Muslim Community expressed in the Citizen that they were going out in full force to see that he would be defeated at the polls.

Yes, but again, people were expecting matters of substance to Hamtramck's survival from Scott. His human rights ordinance did not meet that requirement. Important, perhaps. Would it affect Hamtramck's long-term viability as a stand-along municipality, nope.

**Detroitgayhistoryguy** · September-11-09, 07:24 AM

The houses are not pretty enough in Hamtramck! Lol. Highland Park is way too dangerous and it looks like a bomb went off 20 years ago. I'm seeing allot of my gay friends buying lofts downtown or condos in mid town, Wayne State area. I think downtown to midtown is the area that most gays want to live now.

http://detroitgayhistory.blogspot.com/

detmich · September-11-09, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by jtf1972

As a straight guy that has no problem with homosexuals whatsover [[had a gay roommate, was on his gay bowling league, don't really give a hoot who people do whatever with, etc.) I have never got the whole "transgender" thing. Isn't it just another form of self mutilation and mental illness, like people who need to cover every inch of their body in tattoos, or the people who get implants to make themselves look similar to animals [[Catman, Lizard Man.) I don't actually even see what being "transgender" has to do with being gay. I'm sure there is a guy out there who has no attraction to men whatsoever, but got his outtie made to an innie & swears he's a lesbian!

What's wrong with loving who you are, or at least learning to love yourself as you are? Therapy could save many people... [[I'm sure that not many people get the surgeries & wake up feeling perfectly fine.)

Wow, you've got some real street cred.

When you have to preface your comments by explaining why you are not what you appear to be you usually really are exactly that.

**6nois** · September-11-09, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitgayhistoryguy

The houses are not pretty enough in Hamtramck! Lol. Highland Park is way too dangerous and it looks like a bomb went off 20 years ago. I'm seeing allot of my gay friends buying lofts downtown or condos in mid town, Wayne State area. I think downtown to midtown is the area that most gays want to live now.

http://detroitgayhistory.blogspot.com/

I will agree that Hamtramcks housing stock is not of the right quality to bring in a queer population. However I think you need to chill with sweeping generalizations. Yes Highland Park is no walk through the park but there are some fabulous and very stable blocks in the city that have high potential with the right group of people. And the queer community has never been one to shy away from troubled areas when Ferndale was in the start of becoming what it has it was heading in bad direction and was unstable. That is also not to say that Ferndale is some sort of amazing safe haven now either though, I have had many friends mugged in Ferndale. So I don't think Highland Park's crime would be the true detractor from it as a possibility. I think the bigger issue is what happened with Woodward, and the big box retail that developed there, but it could be worked around. Interestingly though Highland Park does have an advantage in that the political issues and low voter turn out could provide a very easy political take over for the queer community it also has diverse housing types from homes to large apartment buildings all that have a certain historical charm.