Opinions needed: Midtown vs. East Riverfront

**KnnNike** · August-26-20, 06:42 AM

I'm currently looking at condos in both neighborhoods... One at the Park Shelton, one at Garden Court. I'm curious to get some opinions on both areas... Current attractiveness, future growth prospects for the area, etc.

On the one hand, I would love being next to the DIA, public library, etc. On the other, riverfront, Joe Louis Greenway, etc.

Thoughts?

**Zacha341** · August-26-20, 07:05 AM

^^^ I love the Park Shelton! I had a friend who lived on one of the top floors. Wonderfully sound proof building. Awesome views! But expensive.

Welcome to Detroityes!

**JonWylie** · August-26-20, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by KnnNike

I'm currently looking at condos in both neighborhoods... One at the Park Shelton, one at Garden Court. I'm curious to get some opinions on both areas... Current attractiveness, future growth prospects for the area, etc.

On the one hand, I would love being next to the DIA, public library, etc. On the other, riverfront, Joe Louis Greenway, etc.

Thoughts?

Generally, I find it easier to get around when starting from Midtown. If you're interested in going out at night or on the weekends without needing to drive, possibly downtown or Ferndale/Royal Oak, that would be a big plus going with Park Shelton

However, if you're looking for a more neighborhood feel, I'd say the riverfront would be great for leisure and local activities.

**KnnNike** · August-26-20, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

^^^ I love the Park Shelton! I had a friend who lived on one of the top floors. Wonderfully sound proof building. Awesome views! But expensive.

Welcome to Detroityes!

So, actually, both places are pretty pricey. Park Shelton has a slightly higher cost per square foot and a higher HOA, but includes all utilities in the HOA. Garden Court has better views, more space for the money, and there seems to be more care right now being put into the walkability of the East Riverfront area than Woodward Ave.

If anyone else has any good/bad experiences with either place, that would be helpful. I'd also like to know if anyone has thoughts on the 5/10-year viability of these neighborhoods. Does one location have more of the future development plans already "baked in" to the value of the neighborhood? I know the next couple of years are going to be significant for Midtown with the proposed Cultural Corridor, but development in East Riverfront also seems to be ramping up, and I have to believe that Jefferson Ave. in this area is going to keep getting better.

**KnnNike** · August-26-20, 08:01 AM

Has anyone spent time in the East Riverfront area during a "typical" summer? The condo I'm looking at in Garden Court is on the 8th floor facing south. I'm a bit worried if there are tons of concerts or similar events in non-COVID times, I don't want to be kept up all night.

**iheartthed** · August-26-20, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by KnnNike

Has anyone spent time in the East Riverfront area during a "typical" summer? The condo I'm looking at in Garden Court is on the 8th floor facing south. I'm a bit worried if there are tons of concerts or similar events in non-COVID times, I don't want to be kept up all night.

If you're sensitive to noise then living on Jefferson will be louder than Midtown during the summer, especially on weekends, due to Belle Isle and concert traffic. But I've never been in the building, so I don't know how audible street noise is from inside.

**hybridy** · August-26-20, 09:52 AM

Have friends at Shoreline East who love it. They've been there at least a decade. Now looking to move either to the Pointes of closer in to the CBD, but they're having trouble finding a good condo community with all the amenities [[pools, tennis court, etc).

**Satiricalivory** · August-26-20, 10:05 AM

They're both great. But the east riverfront is more isolated.

**Lowell** · August-26-20, 11:21 AM

If you want more nature and outdoors east riverfront is the choice. If you want art and culture and city life you can't beat the Park Shelton. Both are great choices.

**pocketchange** · August-26-20, 03:09 PM

I don't see the East Riverfront being developed much more considering everything going on. Decent void in areas between Jefferson and the Riverwalk that I don't think will be addressed much.

I would think you would be just far enough not to be bothered by concerts based on when I stay at the marina

**KnnNike** · August-26-20, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by pocketchange

I don't see the East Riverfront being developed much more considering everything going on. Decent void in areas between Jefferson and the Riverwalk that I don't think will be addressed much.

I would think you would be just far enough not to be bothered by concerts based on when I stay at the marina

What do you mean by "with everything going on"? COVID? I'm not sure how that would impact things past the next year or so...

**stinkytofu** · August-27-20, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by KnnNike

So, actually, both places are pretty pricey. Park Shelton has a slightly higher cost per square foot and a higher HOA, but includes all utilities in the HOA. Garden Court has better views, more space for the money, and there seems to be more care right now being put into the walkability of the East Riverfront area than Woodward Ave.

If anyone else has any good/bad experiences with either place, that would be helpful. I'd also like to know if anyone has thoughts on the 5/10-year viability of these neighborhoods. Does one location have more of the future development plans already "baked in" to the value of the neighborhood? I know the next couple of years are going to be significant for Midtown with the proposed Cultural Corridor, but development in East Riverfront also seems to be ramping up, and I have to believe that Jefferson Ave. in this area is going to keep getting better.

What's Park Shelton HOA these days? I had a condo under contract there a few years ago and it was around $360.

Great building, but I pulled out due to major tax concerns. The NEZ was set to expire in a year or two and my taxes would've jumped from like $1,200 to $7,500 a year. No bueno. Not sure if NEZ issues would impact any condos you're looking at, but I would definitely look into if you haven't. Impacts not just what you pay now and also when they expire, but also resale value of unit.

**pocketchange** · August-27-20, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by KnnNike

What do you mean by "with everything going on"? COVID? I'm not sure how that would impact things past the next year or so...

Indirectly COVID but more the general economy driving the need for more housing and/or office space in that area. I don't see a demand for developments.

**KnnNike** · August-27-20, 11:12 AM

Definitely higher than that. I'm sure it depends on the unit though...the 1,700 square foot place I've been eyeing is $950/month, but it includes all utilities+maintenance.

Yup, taxes are definitely a concern. The NEZ program is so freaking cryptic...but from what I've been able to gather, once the existing NEZ credit expires, I will be able to apply for a similar but separate NEZ-Homestead credit. The only requirement [[besides living in the place) is that you invest more than $500 into the property. But I'm looking at refinishing the wood floors, which will run about $2k. And according to the assessor's office, that counts.

**KnnNike** · August-27-20, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by pocketchange

Indirectly COVID but more the general economy driving the need for more housing and/or office space in that area. I don't see a demand for developments.

Hmm...that's an interesting take. I was actually thinking the opposite, that this neighborhood was supposed to be one of the "crown jewels" for the City. They put together a whole redevelopment plan in 2017, they've been making improvements to Jefferson Ave. and Joseph Campau, and are on track to connect the last piece of riverwalk between Bell Isle and downtown.

I would think that, relative to other areas of the city, except for maybe downtown, that this would set up the area as first in line for future development. But these are relatively uninformed thoughts, and I'd love to hear more contrarian opinions if there are any.

**stinkytofu** · August-27-20, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by KnnNike

Definitely higher than that. I'm sure it depends on the unit though...the 1,700 square foot place I've been eyeing is $950/month, but it includes all utilities+maintenance.

Yup, taxes are definitely a concern. The NEZ program is so freaking cryptic...but from what I've been able to gather, once the existing NEZ credit expires, I will be able to apply for a similar but separate NEZ-Homestead credit. The only requirement [[besides living in the place) is that you invest more than $500 into the property. But I'm looking at refinishing the wood floors, which will run about $2k. And according to the assessor's office, that counts.

Makes sense. I was looking at a studio unit...only like 550 square feet or so.

I got curious and checked out current NEZ deal. Check out the long article below. Nothing seemingly locked in, but the city appears to be trying to figure out what to do. I actually went into city hall and asked a bunch of questions at the tax office.

https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/arti...hest_residents

**Satiricalivory** · August-27-20, 12:57 PM

People keep saying covid will crash development. Yet I have not seen a single project in the city cancelled or halted?

**KnnNike** · August-27-20, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by stinkytofu

Makes sense. I was looking at a studio unit...only like 550 square feet or so.

I got curious and checked out current NEZ deal. Check out the long article below. Nothing seemingly locked in, but the city appears to be trying to figure out what to do. I actually went into city hall and asked a bunch of questions at the tax office.

https://www.deadlinedetroit.com/arti...hest_residents

That's a fascinating article, thanks for sharing. Although I thought one comment in the article was particularly ignorant:

"There’s enough demand in greater downtown that a new resident willing to pay Detroit’s full tax rate would likely take Morin’s place. Values, meanwhile, have climbed so high that, even if the expiring break forced him sell below market value, he would likely still profit."

Yeah, I lol'd a bit when I read that. I don't know what kind of demand whoever made this quote thinks exists in downtown Detroit, but that "Morin" guy would be looking at $12,000 in taxes on a $300k condo. There are dozens, if not hundreds of places in downtown/midtown priced significantly higher than that now. Watch people run right back to the suburbs when they're facing down a $20,000 or $25,000 property tax bill...I know I would, and I make well over 6 figures.

As far as I understand, the city had to jack the property tax way up, because none of the properties had any value...so like 10% on a $10,000 house is still only like $1,000 in revenue per year. But if the high rates are resulting in huge struggles for low income people, why not just set a "normal" rate? Yeah, your revenues are going to decrease short term, but you're also going to keep a lot more people in their homes, spend less on social welfare programs as a result, and still get higher income people to pay their fair share.

**CR75** · August-27-20, 05:02 PM

Nothing but good things to say about Midtown, where I live. The way I see it, there is very little on sale downtown so if you want to own a condo in an urban environment Midtown is the place.

However the Park Shelton has its share of issues. The heating system breaks down in the middle of winter for weeks at a time, the A/C breaks down in the summer for weeks at a time, the elevators break down for weeks at a time [[either the elevators inside the building or in the parking garage, sometimes both). The building has huge maintenance issues. The building staff is constantly changing: getting anything done, from picking up packages to requesting maintenance inside your unit is always a huge pain because nobody knows what to do.

There is a reason why there are always so many units on sale in the building. I think with that budget you can do a lot better in Midtown, especially in the Art Center, and especially factoring in the insane HOA fees. That's just my opinion though.

**KnnNike** · August-27-20, 05:07 PM

@CR75 do you rent or own? I'm not sure I would ever be requesting maintenance *in* my unit, but yeah, I definitely see the maintenance stuff. I've toured the building 3 times now, and the elevators have been broken for months [[they claim that they're fixing them, but I never see anyone working on them).

**CR75** · August-27-20, 05:07 PM

One more thing: if you want to live in Midtown to enjoy the amenities of the neighborhood, the Park Shelton is actually pretty far from the "center" of Midtown, roughly the blocks between Selden and Canfield west of woodward. You will find yourself hopping in the car more often than not, which negates a lot of the appeal of living in Midtown.

**CR75** · August-27-20, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by KnnNike

@CR75 do you rent or own? I'm not sure I would ever be requesting maintenance *in* my unit,

That's how the park shelton works. The HOA includes basic maintenance inside your unit and you will have to deal with them. For example, anything to do with the HVAC system, which is centralized.

**CR75** · August-27-20, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by KnnNike

I've toured the building 3 times now, and the elevators have been broken for months [[they claim that they're fixing them, but I never see anyone working on them).

I don't think they have enough funds to fix/replace them, but that is just my opinion. Last I heard [[indirectly) they needed 1M to replace the elevators and that's quite the pickle.

**KnnNike** · August-28-20, 11:11 AM

I've decided [[at least tentatively) on Garden Court/Riverfront. Thanks everyone for your comments. It ultimately came down to the properties themselves...there's nothing else besides P.S. in midtown that I was interested in, and ditto for G.C./Riverfront, and the G.C. property is just a better fit for me overall. Now I just have to get the seller to take my offer :-)

**CR75** · August-29-20, 10:10 AM

Good luck! You are welcome. I'd be curious to hear why you excluded all the many amazing condos that are on sale in Midtown right now [[including Brush Park for example) for that budget. As you can tell from my comments

it's not so clear to me that the Park Shelton is the best option on the market right now!