Tesla and their selection of a new site for a new plant

**renf** · July-25-20, 01:37 PM

Does anyone have any insights about why Elon Musk selected Austin Texas as the site for his new assembly plant? Is he
looking for low cost labor? At times he has been very
critical of the management of the Detroit based auto firms.
Certainly there is more technical knowledge about building vehicles here than in rural Texas. And there are many more firms that can supply component parts.

**313WX** · July-25-20, 01:46 PM

Since when is Austin "rural Texas?"

And besides the UAW, we discussed plenty of times that Detroit isn't particularly attractive to top tech talent. This isn't a normal auto plant and will have a ton of tech workers on site.

**Satiricalivory** · July-25-20, 04:04 PM

^ No that's nonsense, there is nowhere in North America with more top talent in the Auto-Industry than Detroit. This is auto capital and always will be.

The sole reason Musk doesn't wanna touch Detroit is because he doesn't want his workers to unionize, that's pretty much it. He is heavily anti-union. No other reason Waymo can set up shop here but not Musk.

**313WX** · July-25-20, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

...Waymo can set up shop here...

Waymo is a relativey small facility with only a couple hundred employees at best where they retrofit already assembled cars.

Big difference from the type of work that takes place in Tesla's gigafactories.

**Satiricalivory** · July-25-20, 04:20 PM

Doesn't really make much difference to my point. If GM and others can plan large electric car plants here so can Tesla. The reason they wont is obvious, not that the world's auto capital somehow lacks auto talent compared to a place that has absolutely nothing to do with building cars.

Lets call it for what it is. Musk is heavily anti-union and on top of that he only sets up if a state gives him billions of dollars to do so, which is what Nevada did and what likely Texas did as well. I don't want this state giving that charlatan a cent.

**313WX** · July-25-20, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

...If GM and others can plan large electric car plants...

"GM and others" retooled ICE auto plants with a labor force already in place that otherwise would have no product allocation. Of course it made sense to do this than spend a lot more money to build brand new plants from scratch elsewhere and have to retrain thousands of new employees.

Furthermore, because of how much of the assembly process will be automated in the transition to electric cars, these retooled plants will likely lead to a net loss in jobs when it's all said and done.

Lastly, all of the tech work for Tesla's gigafactories is done on-site. It's not like "GM and others" where the facilities are strictly assembly plants and the salaried workers are centralized at an office building off-site like the Warren Tech Center.

**Satiricalivory** · July-25-20, 07:05 PM

They're hiring more people for GM's electric plant. I'm not sure why you think it's so easy to retool a plant for ICE to electric cars, these are massive investments literally costing billions of dollars. I seriously doubt creating a new plant from scratch is so much more expensive. Waymo and GM could have gone anywhere, there are plants all over the United States. The tech work is already here so I don't get what your point is?

Once again I think the reasons are clear, it's all about not wanting unionization and the toxic mentality at Tesla sees a place like Michigan as enemy territory. Texas and elsewhere are paying a heavy price for these "gigafactories" so it's a losers game anyway, wonder when those states will ever make a return on what they payed.

**Dmberko11** · July-25-20, 09:25 PM

As someone who lives in Austin, I can assure you, it’s not “rural” at all lol! Pretty soon Austin will have the envy of skylines in Texas, and that’s saying something because Dallas and Houston are giants.
I think he chose Austin because we have a wealth of IT people here and high tech manufacturing as well. It’s not just software people here. A lot of people are moving to Austin too because it has better taxes, cheaper cost of living, it’s business friendly, and there’s a lot of good land to build on. California is too congested. Austin is pretty centrally located in the country as well. I see just as many Teslas on the road here as I do priuses. The market here is huge for electric cars. In Detroit because of the Big 3 there’s a lot of hostility towards Tesla since it’s so disruptive in the auto industry. They’re now the most valuable auto company in the world. Don’t get me wrong though, ICE cars aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. IMO electric cars are still too expensive and kinda gimmicky. I recently was looking at a model 3 and it takes $22 to fully charge its 240 mile range battery! That’s BS. You can fuel up a car for that range.

**Richard** · July-25-20, 10:23 PM

With all of the Cali transplants,how long will Austin be able to retain its charm?

The same people that created the mad house of some parts of California are not going to just change their ways.

**JBMcB** · July-25-20, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

They're hiring more people for GM's electric plant. I'm not sure why you think it's so easy to retool a plant for ICE to electric cars, these are massive investments literally costing billions of dollars.

Changing to *any* new drivetrain is a major investment. Replacing an existing ICE drivetrain with a different one costs a lot. This is why they'll build the same motor for a decade.

**Meddle** · July-26-20, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

Once again I think the reasons are clear, it's all about not wanting unionization and the toxic mentality at Tesla sees a place like Michigan as enemy territory.

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

Lets call it for what it is. Musk is heavily anti-union ...

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

The sole reason Musk doesn't wanna touch Detroit is because he doesn't want his workers to unionize, that's pretty much it. He is heavily anti-union.

Bub, your schtick's getting old. So what if he's anti-union'? So are millions of others. Why? Union history for one. Read the WWII news thread for some examples. Unions are a relic of the past and probably need to go away.

**313WX** · July-26-20, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Dmberko11

As someone who lives in Austin, I can assure you, it’s not “rural” at all lol! Pretty soon Austin will have the envy of skylines in Texas, and that’s saying something because Dallas and Houston are giants.
I think he chose Austin because we have a wealth of IT people here and high tech manufacturing as well. It’s not just software people here. A lot of people are moving to Austin too because it has better taxes, cheaper cost of living, it’s business friendly, and there’s a lot of good land to build on. California is too congested. Austin is pretty centrally located in the country as well. I see just as many Teslas on the road here as I do priuses. The market here is huge for electric cars. In Detroit because of the Big 3 there’s a lot of hostility towards Tesla since it’s so disruptive in the auto industry. They’re now the most valuable auto company in the world. Don’t get me wrong though, ICE cars aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. IMO electric cars are still too expensive and kinda gimmicky. I recently was looking at a model 3 and it takes $22 to fully charge its 240 mile range battery! That’s BS. You can fuel up a car for that range.

The cheaper cost of living part isn't really true for Austin any more. Maybe if you're coming from California, but it's certainly more expensive than Detroit these days.

In fact, it you looked at wages relative to COL, Detroit probably offers the best bang for your buck of any city.

**313WX** · July-26-20, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

Bub, your schtick's getting old. So what if he's anti-union'? So are millions of others. Why? Union history for one. Read the WWII news thread for some examples. Unions are a relic of the past and probably need to go away.

One thing's for certain, he clearly harbors a lot of vitriol hatred for unions, something that helps the working class citizens of the Detroit area maintain what little prosperity they still have. It's sad.

The fact that Detroit area and Michigan in general is unable to attract outside high quality, large scale investments such as the Tesla Gigafactory is really a failure of leadership at the state and local leaders who refuse to proactively go out and sell the positive attributes of the region to companies as well as their unwillingness to spend money on the most basic QOL improvements. It's not the fault of Walt Kowalski who's living paycheck to paycheck to keep a roof over his head and food on his table turning a wrench on the assembly floor at Ford.

**Meddle** · July-26-20, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

One thing's for certain, he clearly harbors a lot of vitriol hatred for unions, something that helps the working class citizens of the Detroit area maintain what little prosperity they still have. It's sad.

How many union corruption cases are ongoing now involving auto companies? Why would any company want to touch a union shop these days?

It may not be Walt or Wilma, but it's the people that take their union dues.

**Dmberko11** · July-26-20, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

The cheaper cost of living part isn't really true for Austin any more. Maybe if you're coming from California, but it's certainly more expensive than Detroit these days.

In fact, it you looked at wages relative to COL, Detroit probably offers the best bang for your buck of any city.

Yeah, that’s what I meant. It’s cheaper when you’re coming from California. Detroit still has their damned no-fault auto insurance though. Back in 2015 when I lived in Dearborn Heights and drove a POS beater car I STILL had to shell out roughly $2200 a year on car insurance premiums, and that was with good credit and a good driving record.
But I would agree that Detroit has a favorable cost of living to most other places. Don’t worry, they’ll experience one Texas summer here after they’ve moved into their new digs and they’ll be like, what have we done?!

**Satiricalivory** · July-26-20, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

Bub, your schtick's getting old. So what if he's anti-union'? So are millions of others. Why? Union history for one. Read the WWII news thread for some examples. Unions are a relic of the past and probably need to go away.

My schtick? You seem to forget that unions serve a highly valuable purpose and are there to protect workers and ensure they're fairly paid, and they're certainly not going anywhere so dont hold your breath. Workers will always unionize when given the chance as they should. A capitalist titan like Musk being anti-union is extremely problematic, it's clear Musk wants to exploit workers as much as he can and leave them vulnerable. And on top of that he wants his endeavors to be publicly financed. That is a disgrace.

Say what you want about the big three but they are at least kept in check by their unions, these libertarian types like Musk are horrifying.

**Satiricalivory** · July-26-20, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

The fact that Detroit area and Michigan in general is unable to attract outside high quality, large scale investments such as the Tesla Gigafactory...

Not to be rude but this bemoaning really holds no weight and I can't help but roll my eyes, you keep glossing over the key conditions for these factories like it's nothing. Tesla wants billions in public monies and they want to union bust on top of it leaving workers completely exposed with no securities in place. Michigan needs to diversify it's economy, not bend over for another auto-plant that comes with nefarious conditions and terms and some of the biggest public subsidies in United States history. They can keep it and Michigan can and does attract/create other types of business.

**401don** · July-26-20, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

Not to be rude but this bemoaning really holds no weight and I can't help but roll my eyes, you keep glossing over the key conditions for these factories like it's nothing. Tesla wants billions in public monies and they want to union bust on top of it leaving workers completely exposed with no securities in place. Michigan needs to diversify it's economy, not bend over for another auto-plant that comes with nefarious conditions and terms and some of the biggest public subsidies in United States history. They can keep it and Michigan can and does attract/create other types of business.

o

Union bust? The other auto companies like Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. have been around without unions for decades.

**313WX** · July-26-20, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

o

Union bust? The other auto companies like Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. have been around without unions for decades.

Funny thing is Michigan has been a finalist for a number of these plants despite the UAW.

And the deal breaker [[every time) wasn't unions or even incentives. Instead, it was the inability of leaders in the region / state to prove that they can cohesively and competently support their ongoing business needs.

**Meddle** · July-26-20, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

My schtick? You seem to forget that unions serveD a highly valuable purpose ...

Past tense.

Now more for wage blackmail.

**Richard** · July-26-20, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Funny thing is Michigan has been a finalist for a number of these plants despite the UAW.

And the deal breaker [[every time) wasn't unions or even incentives. Instead, it was the inability of leaders in the region / state to prove that they can cohesively and competently support their ongoing business needs.

Thats the crux of it,they treat it like it is a protected territory.

The COL in Detroit metro is no different then Alabama comparatively,there is no lack of an educated work force,no lack of technology based work force,its all just excuses.

More recently, Tesla successfully built a car plant in Shanghai in under a year, with $1.6 billion in loans and other assistance from the Chinese government.

Travis County in Texas has voted to give Tesla tax breaks worth a minimum of $14.7 million to build a new car plant, and eventually employ thousands, near the Austin airport.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/texa...ar-austin.html

What is interesting is any foreign company doing business in China is assigned a full time state “representative” that just hangs out all day making sure everything is done in the best interests of the state.

I wonder how musk will react when he is beholden to the state representative as his shadow.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-27-20, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

One thing's for certain, he clearly harbors a lot of vitriol hatred for unions, something that helps the working class citizens of the Detroit area maintain what little prosperity they still have. It's sad.

The fact that Detroit area and Michigan in general is unable to attract outside high quality, large scale investments such as the Tesla Gigafactory is really a failure of leadership at the state and local leaders who refuse to proactively go out and sell the positive attributes of the region to companies as well as their unwillingness to spend money on the most basic QOL improvements. It's not the fault of Walt Kowalski who's living paycheck to paycheck to keep a roof over his head and food on his table turning a wrench on the assembly floor at Ford.

No. It isn't Kowalski's fault.

I can't read Musk's mind, but I doubt he hates Unions. I think he really likes control.

Unions limit company control over workers. Conditions of employment. What you can be asked to do.

A guy like Musk wants to be able to introduce a new product line tomorrow. He wants to be able to change everything about how cars get built. He doesn't want legacy thinking. He doesn't want to hear 'that's not allowed under our union contract'.

Most people think employers hate unions. They think it has to do with higher labor costs. No. I was in charge of labor for a union shop. Wages matter of course. But must less than flexibility. Unions abhor flexibility. Unions enforce conformity on both employed AND EMPLOYEES.

Got a better idea of how to bolt a bumper on a car with half the labor. You won't find yourself at the table with the cool kids at the Christmas Party.

Musk wants to run his company. Doesn't want Walter Reuther's opinion.

**Dmberko11** · July-27-20, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

No. It isn't Kowalski's fault.

I can't read Musk's mind, but I doubt he hates Unions. I think he really likes control.

Unions limit company control over workers. Conditions of employment. What you can be asked to do.

A guy like Musk wants to be able to introduce a new product line tomorrow. He wants to be able to change everything about how cars get built. He doesn't want legacy thinking. He doesn't want to hear 'that's not allowed under our union contract'.

Most people think employers hate unions. They think it has to do with higher labor costs. No. I was in charge of labor for a union shop. Wages matter of course. But must less than flexibility. Unions abhor flexibility. Unions enforce conformity on both employed AND EMPLOYEES.

Got a better idea of how to bolt a bumper on a car with half the labor. You won't find yourself at the table with the cool kids at the Christmas Party.

Musk wants to run his company. Doesn't want Walter Reuther's opinion.

This! Definitely this.

Just think of the meteoric rise of Tesla in the last decade. Basically in ten years he built a company from nothing and surpassed even Toyota in value. If he had unions throwing a monkey wrench into the works they probably would still only be on model S lol.

**iheartthed** · July-27-20, 09:50 AM

Tesla was not ever going to choose Michigan for a factory. But that's actually not a bad thing...

**313WX** · July-28-20, 12:55 PM

BTW, this is probably the real reason Waymo opened their retrofit facility in Detroit...

Fiat Chrysler And Waymo To Make Commercial Self-Driving Vehicles

https://www.benzinga.com/news/20/07/...iving-vehicles