African American police in Detroit

[night-timer]

Given the percentage of African American police officers in the DPD, does that make those Rodney King / George Floyd type of incidents less likely in Detroit?

Of course, the DPD will pursue or arrest anyone committing a crime, but does the presence of African American cops in their ranks prevent George Floyd events from happening?

[renf]

There are many studies of policing in US cities by the people who conduct research on criminal justice. There is some evidence - not overpowering - that an increased representation of African Americans in the police force of a city is linked to a decrease in the likelihood of African Americans being killed by police officers in that city.

[313WX]

There are many studies of policing in US cities by the people who conduct research on criminal justice. There is some evidence - not overpowering - that an increased representation of African Americans in the police force of a city is linked to a decrease in the likelihood of African Americans being killed by police officers in that city.

What I will say though is that the issue of police harassing and killing black people really transcends race and is more of an institutional problem with law enforcement in general.

One reason is because all of us [[including those who go on to become officers) have been conditioned growing up to perceive black people as more dangerous and prone to commit crimes, thus should be "brought to heel" with a disproportionate amount of force than they would use on someone else.

But on top of that, it's hardly a secret that law enforcement tends to attract individuals that aren't the finest. It's a notorious dumping ground for former military veterans who were trained for war combat and to follow the orders of their commanders, not necessarily use emotional intelligence to diffuse situations. Law enforcement also tends to be the career field of last resort for the people in our society who aren't all that bright [[they did poorly in school and don't really have the the aptitude to take on a skilled trade or attend college) since they hire virtually anyone in reasonable shape that can breathe and walk on two feet.

Now, I'm not saying *ALL* officers fit into those two categories. However, there are enough of them within the ranks of these police departments [[including DPD) that the so-called "good" officers either get weeded out eventually or they themselves succumb to the culture of abuse by defending the "bad" officers.

That's why people who have been protesting the death of George Floyd and are calling to "defund the police" have not made an exception for *BLACK* officers.

As an aside, I think it's somewhat relevant to mention that DPD was under a consent agreement with the DOJ until recently [[which was put in place under either Kilpatrick or Archer) because of systemic unethical behavior within the department. Also, let's not forget the officer who killed Aiyana Stanley-Jones was also black.

[401don]

What I will say though is that the issue of police harassing and killing black people really transcends race and is more of an institutional problem with law enforcement in general.

One reason is because all of us [[including those who go on to become officers) have been conditioned growing up to perceive black people as more dangerous and prone to commit crimes, thus should be "brought to heel" with a disproportionate amount of force than they would use on someone else.

But on top of that, it's hardly a secret that law enforcement tends to attract individuals that aren't the finest. It's a notorious dumping ground for former military veterans who were trained for war combat and to follow the orders of their commanders, not necessarily use emotional intelligence to diffuse situations. Law enforcement also tends to be the career field of last resort for the people in our society who aren't all that bright [[they did poorly in school and don't really have the the aptitude to take on a skilled trade or attend college) since they hire virtually anyone in reasonable shape that can breathe and walk on two feet.

Now, I'm not saying *ALL* officers fit into those two categories. However, there are enough of them within the ranks of these police departments [[including DPD) that the so-called "good" officers either get weeded out eventually or they themselves succumb to the culture of abuse by defending the "bad" officers.

That's why people who have been protesting the death of George Floyd and are calling to "defund the police" have not made an exception for *BLACK* officers.

As an aside, I think it's somewhat relevant to mention that DPD was under a consent agreement with the DOJ until recently [[which was put in place under either Kilpatrick or Archer) because of systemic unethical behavior within the department. Also, let's not forget the officer who killed Aiyana Stanley-Jones was also black.

Excellent post.
I think there must be a certain amount of "straw that breaks the camel's back" out there as well. A cop sees and deals with all kinds of bad stuff on a daily basis. He also sees what he perceives as the justice system coming up short when felons are returned to the streets. Combine the two, the next guy resists arrest and gets a lot of the cop's built up anger and stress taken out on him. Ongoing training and evaluation of police is needed but, as you say, the shortage of qualified applicants only worsens the problem.

[313WX]

Excellent post.
I think there must be a certain amount of "straw that breaks the camel's back" out there as well. A cop sees and deals with all kinds of bad stuff on a daily basis. He also sees what he perceives as the justice system coming up short when felons are returned to the streets. Combine the two, the next guy resists arrest and gets a lot of the cop's built up anger and stress taken out on him. Ongoing training and evaluation of police is needed but, as you say, the shortage of qualified applicants only worsens the problem.

I do think the people who are calling to "defund the police" have a point. the toxic culture that permeates in law enforcement is so deeply entrenched that no amount of reform will truly fix it. So in a way, it's better to just blow everything up and start all over.

That said, centralized and organized law enforcement still has its place in our society in order to protect citizens from the real criminals and demonizes officers to the point where they're afraid or unable to even do this doesn't help either.

I don't have the solution as there's no easy answer to this issue, but I think everyone can agree the status quo is not acceptable.

[Dumpling]

313WX, your earlier post is mostly thoughtful, but I believe that
the officer who killed Aiyana Stanley-Jones was white. He does
regret it very much. The raid was overseen by Warren Evans,
though, who is the current Wayne County Executive.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics...jones-detroit/

[DeLemur]

Yes, and when you raid the wrong house that's a problem higher up than the Officer firing the shots.

The DOJ had two consent agreements with DPD from 2003 - 2016. One on excessive force, the other on jails and arrests of witnesses. I think this is a bigger factor than black officers, because the excessive force that DPD was engaged in [[killing civilians) during the 90's. My understanding is Coleman Young had integrated the department fairly well by that point.

313WX, your earlier post is mostly thoughtful, but I believe that
the officer who killed Aiyana Stanley-Jones was white. He does
regret it very much. The raid was overseen by Warren Evans,
though, who is the current Wayne County Executive.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics...jones-detroit/

[313WX]

313WX, your earlier post is mostly thoughtful, but I believe that
the officer who killed Aiyana Stanley-Jones was white. He does
regret it very much. The raid was overseen by Warren Evans,
though, who is the current Wayne County Executive.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics...jones-detroit/

Thanks for that Dumpling.

I'm not sure why I remember the officer being black, unless I'm thinking of another incident.

[Ray1936]

How many "African-American" police are there in Detroit? I'm betting they all were born in or around Michigan. How come you don't also reference "European-American" police, or "Spanish-American" police?

Another example of DetroitYes bullshit. Let's knock it off, huh?

[Jason]

How many "African-American" police are there in Detroit? I'm betting they all were born in or around Michigan. How come you don't also reference "European-American" police, or "Spanish-American" police?

Another example of DetroitYes bullshit. Let's knock it off, huh?

"African-American" isn't "DetroitYes bullshit", it's been the standard term for formal uses for over 30 years.

The term was modeled after "Irish-American" "German-American" "Italian-American" which at the time were in more popular use among whites than they are today.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Yep. Thank you Jason for providing the historic perspective lest it be thought to just be a 'black' thing. Indeed the term is bigger and far beyond Dyes as you state. For myself I am ok with black, or AA.

Returning to the original topics and point: I think it's case by case as to rather you will have a good outcome with a LEO. And we've seen many black LEO's just as ruthless and inappropriate as white LEO's.

And we have to look at the Police chiefs and DA's in charge to, as rather or not they have a vested interest in their community and not just sending in offers as the clean-up gang, blasting away and committing grave misconduct.

[p69rrh51]

I get pulled over by black police officers once or twice a year. Once the officers figure out I am in the neighborhood on a mission they usually let me go. Also helps to be polite with them.

[Dumpling]

I needed a refresh on the percentages of African Americans and
Hispanics on the City of Detroit police force.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/ne...ks/3297294002/

It's 55% African American and dropping. The percent of Hispanic
officers is 4% or so - again, lower than the percent Hispanic
in the general population, but probably the percent is increasing.

I have not been pulled over in quite some time. The last time
I was pulled over was in the City of River Rouge. I did run a
red light [[after working an OT shift) on Jefferson at Victoria.
The officer was polite and professional. He was either white
or Hispanic. I am a white woman and did have things mostly
in order other than being hours past a decent bedtime.

Not long after that I went to the combined court for Ecorse
and River Rouge. There was a large hall with everyone who had
received a ticket for anything in the last several days being seated
there. It was a slice of the community. A gang of youths had
been rounded up and handcuffed by the police as well. It was
an integrated group of maybe six individuals.

The judge was on a dais in front [[in my recollection) adjudicating
all of the cases one by one. I was there for hours...like from eight
in the morning until noon, waiting for my case to be heard. My
ticket was changed from running a red light [[which actually
happened) to obstructing traffic [[which wouldn't be happening
in River Rouge at 12:30 am for the most part) so there wouldn't
be points added to my recond. I paid the appropriate fine and
was on my way. I tend not to drive through River Rouge because
the police there, as in so many communities, do function as civic
fundraisers and River Rouge really needs the money from the
tickets these days what with the steel factory being closed. And
I really haven't needed any increases on my auto insurance.
My insurance company, Liberty Mutual, increases the rate
every year all on its own without any tickets or accidents
and such to be considered. There is a tension between what
cities need to raise to pay wages and pensions and what
auto insurance companies like to charge to cover medical
bills for those filing claims.

[aj3647]

Black cops are indoctrinated into the same toxic, dysfunctional culture of policing as white cops are. The same mindset of "us versus them" and "the people you are paid to protect and serve are your enemy" and "if you wear a badge, you can do no wrong, you are above the law." You don't see too many black cops breaking the Blue Wall of Silence to speak out against police misconduct nor are black cops rushing to testify against their white co-workers.

From the studies I've seen, it's having black cops in leadership positions that has more of an effect than simply having black cops in general.

[iheartthed]

How many "African-American" police are there in Detroit? I'm betting they all were born in or around Michigan. How come you don't also reference "European-American" police, or "Spanish-American" police?

Another example of DetroitYes bullshit. Let's knock it off, huh?

African American is the term for black people born in the U.S.; mostly applied to descendants of American slavery. African immigrants to the U.S. are not "African American." Black is the umbrella term for all people of African descent.

[Zacha341]

^^^ Well stated. For example as Africa is a continent not a country some who have immigrated from Nigeria would consider themselves usually as Nigerian-American.

[cla1945]

What's the difference in the color of DPD cops? Why should it matter?

There is one key word here that absolutely no one will ever address. I know we wouldn't be having conversations like this one if the people who are claiming that the murder rate in blacks is more than any other race in America learned this particular word. Either being taught by parents, both Mom and Dad, or just learning that this word will be the most important thing you will know if you are a person of color and feel unjustly stopped. I learned it early in life. Father a cop, friends were cops, son a cop now.

'COMPLY'

Very easy word to learn and the death rate would drop considerably. But, alas, it's the old excuse that "I don't have to show you my license", "I have my rights", "Why did you stop me", "you don't have a right to ask me this", and it goes on and on. Also in the process, the cop learns more about his own mother than he's ever known before.

Does anyone know this word and what it means? A lawful stop means you should COMPLY with an officers questions or demands. There is always an alternative to fight a stop in court. Why risk your life to fight with an officer? Why not open your window? Why not produce a license and registration, [[unless of course, you don't have one, you have a warrant out), then you would want to fight and run or grab his gun and shoot him instead.

I can guarantee everyone on this forum...99.9% of cops do not want to ever pull their weapon and 99.9% of the cops do not want to shoot and kill someone. They want to protect and serve, do their job, go home to their family after their shift, and work another day. Not one of them gets up and says "today I'm going to kill someone because I feel like it"...not now, not ever!

[aj3647]

'COMPLY'

All well and good except when they DO comply and are SHOT anyways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooti...Charles_Kinsey

Or how about Botham Jean, murdered in his OWN apartment by a cop who "mistook" his apartment for hers? Do tell, what did he do to justify his death?

Or Breonna Taylor, murdered in her own apartment in the middle of the night by plain-clothes cops executing a no-knock warrant looking for a man who was already in police custody, what did she do wrong? I'd like to hear it.

Or Philando Castile, murdered by a cop during a traffic stop because he was reaching for his driver's license and registration which the cop TOLD him to provide?

Or Ahmaud Arbery, an unarmed black jogger murdered by three white vigilantes because he "fit a description." What did he do wrong except not submit to the fake authority of three white goobers with guns?

Is that enough examples or do you need more? Plenty of dead black bodies who did nothing wrong and in no way disobeyed the police, but are dead nonetheless.

[Dumpling]

Unless they are doing civic fundraising, typically the police
will pull over a vehicle for a significant moving violation. In
a goodly proportion of these stops the driver is intoxicated
and needed to be pulled over. By that token however they
are not thinking clearly and interacting in a sensible and
respectful manner with the police.

Which does make for a hard job for the police; but most,
with the correct training and a caring disposition will make
the best of it.

On the other hand there is a small minority of people who
are psychologically tilted towards domestic violence and its
equivalents while serving on the police force. We should not be
protective of police officers who wantonly physically abuse
people who have been pulled over regardless of whether they
act drunk and disrespectful, though that would be a near daily
occurrence.

After arrests at a recent protest, one particular officer cut
into the detained person's wrists, one after the other, while
cutting off their zip tie handcuffs. The job could have been
done without cutting into anyone. This is a small example
of the sort of behavior that should not be considered to be
acceptable.

[Meddle]

And how about when 'Comply' means 'Give me $50 and I won't write this citation'?

And how about when 'Comply' means 'and keep your damn mouth shut about this because I know where you live'?

[aj3647]

And how about when 'Comply' means 'Give me $50 and I won't write this citation'?

And how about when 'Comply' means 'and keep your damn mouth shut about this because I know where you live'?

Or "give my your number and go out with me or else I'll write you a speeding ticket." Or "do me a 'favor' in the back of my patrol car and I won't take you in on a prostitution charge."

The cops are banking on people's sheep-like ignorance and desire to "comply" so they can walk all over your rights. Like searching your car without a warrant or ordering bystanders not to film them with their cell phones. They're just hoping you'll "comply" without questioning whether those are even lawful commands or if you have the right to refuse them.

[401don]

I always understood that when someone resisted arrest police were supposed to use the amount of force necessary to restrain that person. In other words the goal is to get handcuffs on them so that they can't harm the cops, others or themselves. Meanwhile we've witnessed many incidents recently where 3 or 4 cops are at the scene. One or more cops is applying choke holds or other types of force while the other cops stand around doing nothing.

[Meddle]

Like searching your car without a warrant or ordering bystanders not to film them with their cell phones. They're just hoping you'll "comply" without questioning whether those are even lawful commands or if you have the right to refuse them.

OK, here's your citation. Slow down next time and be a little more careful.

Oh, just one more thing.... you wouldn't mind if I look in your car, would you? You don't have anything to hide do you?

[Ray1936]

OK, here's your citation. Slow down next time and be a little more careful.

Oh, just one more thing.... you wouldn't mind if I look in your car, would you? You don't have anything to hide do you?

So just say "no". As a Detroit Police Officer for 29 years, I'm really getting pissed at some of the left-wing swipes at proper law and order recently. But DetroitYes is certainly going in that direction.

[cla1945]

All well and good except when they DO comply and are SHOT anyways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooti...Charles_Kinsey

Or how about Botham Jean, murdered in his OWN apartment by a cop who "mistook" his apartment for hers? Do tell, what did he do to justify his death?

Or Breonna Taylor, murdered in her own apartment in the middle of the night by plain-clothes cops executing a no-knock warrant looking for a man who was already in police custody, what did she do wrong? I'd like to hear it.

Or Philando Castile, murdered by a cop during a traffic stop because he was reaching for his driver's license and registration which the cop TOLD him to provide?

Or Ahmaud Arbery, an unarmed black jogger murdered by three white vigilantes because he "fit a description." What did he do wrong except not submit to the fake authority of three white goobers with guns?

Is that enough examples or do you need more? Plenty of dead black bodies who did nothing wrong and in no way disobeyed the police, but are dead nonetheless.

There are many professions out there that cause death or irreparable damage to another human being. Some out there want to do harm. Mistakes by doctors, teachers, or priests, are just a few.

You can Google every day and come up with names, dates and places where you may think officers killed unjustly. Officers go through vigorous training, psychological testing, rules of law and how to react when under pressure. I’m sure we’ve all seen officers being yelled at face to face with rioters, looters, antagonist, fascists, spitting on them, throwing urine, feces, gasoline, setting them on fire, having bricks, railroad ties thrown at them and it has not stopped. Yet, the officers are still out there, being called to the CHOP zone in Seattle on a shooting call, by the very ones who want the police to go away. A bunch of hypocrites if you ask me!

One thing I have to say. 79 black Americans were shot in Chicago, 12 In Atlanta, 44 shot in NYC, a number of people shot in Philadelphia, 8 dead, and all over the US just this past week end and I’ve seen no outrage. I see no one demanding justice for these children, babies that are now gone. Yet, a white officer kills a black person and all hell breaks loose. Someone needs to check the stats on how many blacks versus whites are killed by police...I think you will all be surprised. I am in no way justifying a purposeful, premeditated murdered by an officer, but a 20 second video on YouTube or on a newscast does not tell the full story in many cases.