Ford, General Motors and Fiat Chrysler will close all of their factories

[davewindsor]

due to pressure from the UAW.

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/for...g-to-ap-source

Yet Musk wants Tesla to stay open as an essential business.
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/17/...pen-elon-musk/

[davewindsor]

Looks like China with their virus and the help of Russia and their oil wells won the economic war. Decades of savings in the NA stock market wiped out in a couple weeks, oil companies on the way to bankruptcy, and now the big factories are shutting down. The US and Canada are now economically broken. The Communist Country of China just threw us into a recession.

[Richard]

It’s not an economy based collapse it is a virus based collapse,the pent up demand will still be there once the uncertainty aspect is removed.

Now that we are feeling the pain short term they should be fireing up the closed down factories,so when the bug passes we resume production in our perspective countries and not China.

Imagine what would have happened if it was 2009 and this hit.

I also do not get the whole Musk is an essential business in California,they already cleared him to stay open.

[davewindsor]

It’s not an economy based collapse it is a virus based collapse,the pent up demand will still be there once the uncertainty aspect is removed.

Now that we are feeling the pain short term they should be fireing up the closed down factories,so when the bug passes we resume production in our perspective countries and not China.

Imagine what would have happened if it was 2009 and this hit.

I also do not get the whole Musk is an essential business in California,they already cleared him to stay open.

I don't think this is a short term thing anymore once the large factories start shutting down. Bill Ackman of Pershing Capital says we'll be going through a depression and millions of deaths before Corona is over. [[Whether I believe him or not, I'm sure many of his viewers do causing the Dow to fall another 2000+ points today) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FItEjc6VtuU

A lot of people have had their retirement savings wiped out over this. Where's the money to buy these cars and other items to get the economy rolling again once these factories can be brought back online?

[iheartthed]

due to pressure from the UAW.

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/for...g-to-ap-source

Yet Musk wants Tesla to stay open as an essential business.
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/17/...pen-elon-musk/

Musk was denied the essential business request.

[Richard]

The only way anybody gets anything wiped out is if they panic and sell,it was a booming economy,the money and demand is still there,it’s just on a temporary shelf.

We have seen this virus has a curve,once they know what direction it is headed it will bring stability.

Governments are massive entities they just cannot gear up and provide immediate results,once they get the train rolling it will correct.

Once it breaks the people that were going to buy a car in March and April will still buy a car in May,same with real estate etc.

Dave - If it makes you feel any better and you wish to dump some properties based on current markets,I will pay you cash for them.Even at current exchange rates.

[Warrenite84]

These are only paper losses. If you sell, then it is a loss. If you can afford to buy a little, it will recover. I think it will be a rapid recovery after clusters are attended to.

I don't know about millions dead, but I believe limiting social gatherings, hygiene, and medical advances could minimize its impact. I had heard yesterday on the news that those who survive the illness could donate plasma with antibodies to help medical staff or those with mild to moderate symptoms to recover or be protected which is encouraging news.

This will certainly spell the end of China holding us hostage via medicine production. We still have to face down all our massive debt they hold...

[Seven&wyo]

I don't think this is a short term thing anymore once the large factories start shutting down. Bill Ackman of Pershing Capital says we'll be going through a depression and millions of deaths before Corona is over. [[Whether I believe him or not, I'm sure many of his viewers do causing the Dow to fall another 2000+ points today) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FItEjc6VtuU

A lot of people have had their retirement savings wiped out over this. Where's the money to buy these cars and other items to get the economy rolling again once these factories can be brought back online?

I don't really buy that. The economy was already showing signs of slowing down before the virus. Michigan and other industrial states are usually the ones that feel the downturn first and the job growth in MI was extremely low last year compared to just the year before[[I think 50%). I think the recession was definitely due and most economists agree that American won't just start spending cash immediately and that there will be a slow recovery time and not just a "Ope, everything is back to normal today". Most of the experts I've read say this is an recession is one more like a recession after a natural disaster than what was experienced in 08, which was a collapse brewing for years. As for the Media's role in informing us or finding people to inform us I personally take it with a grain of salt, remember, "If it bleeds, it leads"

[Richard]

Musk was denied the essential business request.

Yep lol sheriff said shut it down,electric cars are not essential.

Interesting though CBSN was reporting yesterday that the city was allowing him to stay open as a shelter in place location.

He is nervous because of his intended launch,BMW,Audi,Mercedes are all about to launch line ups that will directly impact him.Extremely bad timing.

[Richard]

I don't really buy that. The economy was already showing signs of slowing down before the virus. Michigan and other industrial states are usually the ones that feel the downturn first and the job growth in MI was extremely low last year compared to just the year before[[I think 50%). I think the recession was definitely due and most economists agree that American won't just start spending cash immediately and that there will be a slow recovery time and not just a "Ope, everything is back to normal today". Most of the experts I've read say this is an recession is one more like a recession after a natural disaster than what was experienced in 08, which was a collapse brewing for years. As for the Media's role in informing us or finding people to inform us I personally take it with a grain of salt, remember, "If it bleeds, it leads"

It is an election year,over 40 years in business and I have never seen a strong election year return,uncertainty drives markets more then money.

I can tell you every four years when the market will have a downturn and I am not even an expert.

If you were planning on buying a house or car in March 2020 and this passes would you decide not to then continue with your purchase?

People are pulling their real estate listings so the time on market does not effect sales,so it It considered a sellers market because now you see less on the market?

Not that anybody could actually pull a loan or even close but it is all hypothetical anyways with these scenarios being played out.

The elephant in the room is how does this effect Detroit and its recovery,Personally I think all it will end up doing is the same thing that is happening everywhere else,a 30-60 day pause.

Auto manufacturing closed down,they did not halt production because they had no sales or no demand,they halted production directly related to the virus.

[Atticus]

Unless a vaccine or other treatment shows up soon [[and by all accounts we are 12-18 months away from a vaccine being available to the masses), a significant percentage of the population is going to get this virus at some point. It is not if, but when.

So my question is.... does this shutdown simply prolong the inevitable, at too high an economic cost?

And to be clear, I totally understand the “flattening of the curve” argument. And I agree closing these plants does in fact help with the flattening the curve.. to some degree. But at some point do you flatten the curve too much? There is a reason we are not in Italy’s mode of total lockdown yet, and while we may get there in a couple weeks, we also may not. I acknowledge we don’t have the data to tell, and until widespread testing is available, scientists won’t fully know how we stand.

But at some point when does the economic cost becomes too high? And while generally I am on the better safe than sorry category, I worry auto-plant closures might have gone too far, at least if they go on for months at a time. I know, every little bit helps. And again, I acknowledge we really don’t know where we stand, but the argument for closures should be based “on flattening the curve” because as heartless as it may sound, many of those plant workers are going to get the virus at some point, whether the plant operates or not. And maybe it is good to briefly close now until more tests become available. But I worry a long term closure, especially once testing becomes more widely available, may not be in our best interest.

[401don]

These are only paper losses. If you sell, then it is a loss. If you can afford to buy a little, it will recover. I think it will be a rapid recovery after clusters are attended to.

I don't know about millions dead, but I believe limiting social gatherings, hygiene, and medical advances could minimize its impact. I had heard yesterday on the news that those who survive the illness could donate plasma with antibodies to help medical staff or those with mild to moderate symptoms to recover or be protected which is encouraging news.

This will certainly spell the end of China holding us hostage via medicine production. We still have to face down all our massive debt they hold...

The optimism is nice but I was watching the Canadian head of infectious disease today say to expect several waves of the virus and the end to be more than a year away, probably close to the time a vaccine is ready.

[401don]

Unless a vaccine or other treatment shows up soon [[and by all accounts we are 12-18 months away from a vaccine being available to the masses), a significant percentage of the population is going to get this virus at some point. It is not if, but when.

So my question is.... does this shutdown simply prolong the inevitable, at too high an economic cost?

And to be clear, I totally understand the “flattening of the curve” argument. And I agree closing these plants does in fact help with the flattening the curve.. to some degree. But at some point do you flatten the curve too much? There is a reason we are not in Italy’s mode of total lockdown yet, and while we may get there in a couple weeks, we also may not. I acknowledge we don’t have the data to tell, and until widespread testing is available, scientists won’t fully know how we stand.

But at some point when does the economic cost becomes too high? And while generally I am on the better safe than sorry category, I worry auto-plant closures might have gone too far, at least if they go on for months at a time. I know, every little bit helps. And again, I acknowledge we really don’t know where we stand, but the argument for closures should be based “on flattening the curve” because as heartless as it may sound, many of those plant workers are going to get the virus at some point, whether the plant operates or not. And maybe it is good to briefly close now until more tests become available. But I worry a long term closure, especially once testing becomes more widely available, may not be in our best interest.

Again, for the vast majority of them, it's not the auto workers catching it that's the problem. It's them spreading it on their way to and from work and to relatives at home. The same as everyone else who goes out. It's really a matter if you're comfortable with the number of deaths Italy is experiencing, which haven't peaked yet.

[Seven&wyo]

Again, for the vast majority of them, it's not the auto workers catching it that's the problem. It's them spreading it on their way to and from work and to relatives at home. The same as everyone else who goes out. It's really a matter if you're comfortable with the number of deaths Italy is experiencing, which haven't peaked yet.

Given how China and Italy were the first to be infected I don't rely too much on their data their date is going to be higher since they didn't know what was going on at first. South Korea, who were very aggressive in their testing and quarantine, are reporting a fatality rate of .3-.6%, which is still double the regular flu and the US is reporting 1.5% fatality rate and we were a little late to the game but catching up. But at the end of the day well just have to sit and wait

[Richard]

On YouTube

France 24 [[English)
DW news [[Berlin)
AL Jazeera for the Middle East

You can pretty much watch it as it moves through the cycles and the reaction to.

Just now are some of the major other countries declaring a health emergency.

Russian cases jumped 29% after lockdown.

[Atticus]

Again, for the vast majority of them, it's not the auto workers catching it that's the problem. It's them spreading it on their way to and from work and to relatives at home. The same as everyone else who goes out. It's really a matter if you're comfortable with the number of deaths Italy is experiencing, which haven't peaked yet.

No I get all of that. My point is that unless we are on lockdown for a year until the vaccine comes, many of us will get the disease [[including plant workers). And then it will spread to everyone we are in contact with.

The shutdowns are not to prevent people from getting the disease per se, but to prevent the hospitals from being overwhelmed by people showing up at the same time. And maybe a plant closure is needed to do its part to “flatten the curve”, but the economist in me says plant closures should be one of the final measures implemented given the severe economic impact they have.

No offense to restaurant workers and the hardships they will be undertaking, but the state economy can survive better with restaurants closed and factories open [[Picking the lesser of evils, and again not treating the restaurant closures lightly). And thus it is better to fill the hospital with sick factory workers than sick restaurant workers, because that means the factories keep going. The hospitals are going to be filled by somebody. The real challenge and risk is figuring out how to not put too many people at risk to overwhelm the hospital, but not going too far the other way either because every closure does economic and social damage in other ways.

[401don]

No I get all of that. My point is that unless we are on lockdown for a year until the vaccine comes, many of us will get the disease [[including plant workers). And then it will spread to everyone we are in contact with.

The shutdowns are not to prevent people from getting the disease per se, but to prevent the hospitals from being overwhelmed by people showing up at the same time. And maybe a plant closure is needed to do its part to “flatten the curve”, but the economist in me says plant closures should be one of the final measures implemented given the severe economic impact they have.

No offense to restaurant workers and the hardships they will be undertaking, but the state economy can survive better with restaurants closed and factories open [[Picking the lesser of evils, and again not treating the restaurant closures lightly). And thus it is better to fill the hospital with sick factory workers than sick restaurant workers, because that means the factories keep going. The hospitals are going to be filled by somebody. The real challenge and risk is figuring out how to not put too many people at risk to overwhelm the hospital, but not going too far the other way either because every closure does economic and social damage in other ways.

I get the feeling demand for vehicles will plummet so it won't be an issue for a while. What company is going ahead with that new fleet purchase? What retiree is buying that new caddy when he just lost half his nestegg? What family is going to get the new vehicle for the family vacation? Dealer inventories were already high. The plant shutdowns are probably just moving up the layoffs a few weeks.

[Hypestyles]

due to pressure from the UAW.

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/for...g-to-ap-source

Yet Musk wants Tesla to stay open as an essential business.
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/17/...pen-elon-musk/

Does Mr. Musk provide paid medical leave for employees? just asking.

[Metro25]

Musk was denied the essential business request.

What an arrogant out of touch d-bag to even ask for this.

You sell luxury cars, toys for rich pompous dude-bros, nothing about that is essential in any way.

I wonder how much inventory they have sitting? I highly doubt it's much, and the only cash reserve they have is in their stock since they're an unprofitable company with a shaky business model.

[Lowell]

Bill Ackman of Pershing Capital says we'll be going through a depression and millions of deaths before Corona is over. [[Whether I believe him or not, I'm sure many of his viewers do causing the Dow to fall another 2000+ points today) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FItEjc6VtuU

I also watched the Ackman interview--he's a true bear's bear. His main point was to shut down the world, not just he US, for 30 days and stop all human to human contact as much as possible to stop the virus in its tracks. His said [I paraphrase], capitalism can withstand a month down, but it will collapse if it's several months.

He then ranted about depressed hotel stocks, saying they were all headed to zero, but then said he was buying some. When he started name-dropping them, Hilton and Marriott in particular, he began sounding pump-and-dumpy and raised my eyebrows.

When asked why he was buying when he thought they were heading to zero, he said the administration would be forced into the 30 day shutdown and they would ultimately recover. He alternately sound brilliant and scattered but made a compelling argument nonetheless.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

I get the feeling demand for vehicles will plummet so it won't be an issue for a while. What company is going ahead with that new fleet purchase? What retiree is buying that new caddy when he just lost half his nestegg? What family is going to get the new vehicle for the family vacation? Dealer inventories were already high. The plant shutdowns are probably just moving up the layoffs a few weeks.

How is anybody going to buy anything, with out a job? Are they going to use that $1,000.00 check 45 is suppose to give out as a down payment?

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I get the feeling demand for vehicles will plummet so it won't be an issue for a while. What company is going ahead with that new fleet purchase? What retiree is buying that new caddy when he just lost half his nestegg? What family is going to get the new vehicle for the family vacation? Dealer inventories were already high. The plant shutdowns are probably just moving up the layoffs a few weeks.

Two retirees in my household, each with a lease ending this year. I can tell you for sure that we will have only one car later this year.

[Richard]

Given how China and Italy were the first to be infected I don't rely too much on their data their date is going to be higher since they didn't know what was going on at first. South Korea, who were very aggressive in their testing and quarantine, are reporting a fatality rate of .3-.6%, which is still double the regular flu and the US is reporting 1.5% fatality rate and we were a little late to the game but catching up. But at the end of the day well just have to sit and wait

Italy is showing a high mortality rate even with the massive lockdown measures.

But the main thing is underlying existing conditions and Italy outside of Rome has had a massive problem with the mafia and the illegal disposal of contaminated waste from around the world.

Outside of Rome they really have little farmland left that is not seriously contaminated with some nasty stuff,from the food they eat to the water they drink.

They have found toxic burial sites 3 football fields long where the ground is literally smoking from the chemicals overheating and reacting.

Some if the towns they used to say that one is lucky to live until 50 and now it is 30.

A lot of factors will determine the death rates,so it is hard to take everything at face value.

There are 10s of thousands labs and some pretty smart people working on this 24/7 around the world,they will figure it out in short order.

But everywhere the highest mortality rate is those 80 and up,coming out of China I will always believe that this was more intended then not,it just kinda escaped prematurely.

[Sehv313]

due to pressure from the Line Workers.

I fixed that for you. After President Roy Gamble could not do his job, The the auto workers refused to work. So when the auto workers understood that the UAW could not help they called/walked off the jobs and the lines could not run due to lack of man-power.

[313WX]

CNBC is reporting that Ford is suspending their dividends and tapping into over $13 billion in credit.