Regarding the Construction Labor Shortage in Detroit

[Vitalis]

Back in 1977, I was working the first of several jobs I would get at the Renaissance Center. I had met a crane operator who was from Georgia. He had driven his motor home north to take a job erecting the steel in the original five towers. Skilled work, excellent wages, no rent [[he was allowed to park his motor home on a lot where the east parking structure now stands.) When all the steel was finally in place, he switched seats [[literally) and sat all day running the freight elevator in Tower 300, until Ford moved in. Then he vanished. Presumably onto the next job. I'm wondering if there has been an influx of workers from other states into the Metro area in the recent past? I ask because of the reported slow down [[due to many factors) in construction or the halt to some projects. If labor is the concern, and construction firms can't fill quotas with Detroit residents, are they reaching out across the country?

[NSortzi]

There are people from out of state working on projects here, yes. Construction labor shortages and rising construction costs are problems nationwide, however.

[313WX]

Back in 1977, I was working the first of several jobs I would get at the Renaissance Center. I had met a crane operator who was from Georgia. He had driven his motor home north to take a job erecting the steel in the original five towers. Skilled work, excellent wages, no rent [[he was allowed to park his motor home on a lot where the east parking structure now stands.) When all the steel was finally in place, he switched seats [[literally) and sat all day running the freight elevator in Tower 300, until Ford moved in. Then he vanished. Presumably onto the next job. I'm wondering if there has been an influx of workers from other states into the Metro area in the recent past? I ask because of the reported slow down [[due to many factors) in construction or the halt to some projects. If labor is the concern, and construction firms can't fill quotas with Detroit residents, are they reaching out across the country?

Skilled construction labor has "pick of the litter" right now in terms of locations they can choose to migrate to and settle in. When you have so many sunbelt cities growing at a break neck pace, convincing folks to come to the snow belt is going to be a hard sell.

The Detroit area may well have been an "IT" market back in 1977 compared to [[at the time) backwater Georgia, but in 2020 [[being a stagnant growth region centered around an industry in secular decline), it's a different story.

[Jimaz]

But what does this have to do with Hungry Howie's?!

[Luke09]

Skilled construction labor has "pick of the litter" right now in terms of locations they can choose to migrate to and settle in. When you have so many sunbelt cities growing at a break neck pace, convincing folks to come to the snow belt is going to be a hard sell.

The Detroit area may well have been an "IT" market back in 1977 compared to [[at the time) backwater Georgia, but in 2020 [[being a stagnant growth region centered around an industry in secular decline), it's a different story.

Metro Detroit is a top 5 market nationwide for financial services and top 10 for technology.

[313WX]

Metro Detroit is a top 5 market nationwide for financial services and top 10 for technology.

That doesn't dispute anything I said.

[DeLemur]

Metro Detroit is a top 5 market nationwide for financial services and top 10 for technology.

Huh, where are you getting this information from?
Detroit actually lost tech jobs in the last decade.
Seems dubious.

[ABetterDetroit]

Yes OP. There have been many out of town contractors working in Detroit the last few years, including from down south and out west. Contractors are like anyone else and go where the better money is. Quality skilled labor tends to stick with the best contractors for the same reason.

The ‘Construction shortage’ in Detroit is more of a excuse fabricated on these threads because of, well to be honest, Michiganders are really big on making excuses for their own failures in comparison to the rest of the nation. We keep insisting on what we do around here is the right way to do things despite all the failure so instead of making changes, excuses become very necessary to save face.

The major problem that Detroit has now and has had for a very long time is a ‘Construction Gap’. The Gap is difficult or impossible to close on large projects unless you have the political pull in Lansing to get the taxes abated. The gap also injects more risk into medium and smaller projects making them much more difficult.

It is really a damn shame that Lansing keeps insisting on picking the winner and loser communities within our own state. An incredible amount of wealth and talent have left to diversify the economies of states elsewhere because of it and new capital here is in chronic short supply.

[Seven&wyo]

Wow, this thread went from an innocent little question to just full blown bullshit real quick.

No one person in particular either...

[Gistok]

Wow, this thread went from an innocent little question to just full blown bullshit real quick.

No one person in particular either...

Yup.... I know 2 metro Detroit small construction company owners that have given up on looking for extra hired help.

[ABetterDetroit]

Yup.... I know 2 metro Detroit small construction company owners that have given up on looking for extra hired help.

So says the ones who will not pay or those who can not pay proper wages and benefits because of the construction gap. Only x amount of money can be financed into a project. The taxes are not financeable and go on the liability side of the ledger hurting the amount financed.

It is competitive out there now. To get good people you have to compete to do it. Specializing in being a low wage state doesn’t solve anything. It just creates a myriad of problems.

[Gistok]

So says the ones who will not pay or those who can not pay proper wages and benefits because of the construction gap. Only x amount of money can be financed into a project. The taxes are not financeable and go on the liability side of the ledger hurting the amount financed.

It is competitive out there now. To get good people you have to compete to do it. Specializing in being a low wage state doesn’t solve anything. It just creates a myriad of problems.

Or in these cases... paying according to experience level... and willing to train those without experience.

But often, young inexperienced help doesn't like to work hard. Being part of the X-Box and Playstation generation in their parents basement, can often make working hard an unpleasant choice... and they quit after a while.

One of the better things about foreign workers, is that they are more willing to work hard for their money. And being a roofer, rough carpenter, or working with cement... foreign workers are no longer an option.

[EGrant]

It's spelled XBox*

[Richard]

The 70s was recession related so people would travel for work just like when to market crashed in 2009 a lot of the trade workers moved on to the fracking industry.

The south is massively building based on imported labor and unless you speak Spanish and willing to work for $15 per hour as a skilled trade,good luck.

If you are bi lingual then you can make good money running crews as long as you are willing to lower your standards because you are not building anything that will be expected to last more then 10 years anyways and as long as you are within 2” of being out of square it is acceptable.

The plus side is if you have a skill and are good at it you can hang your own shingle and make as much money as you want to from day one,until you have to start hiring people,then Gistoks analysis kicks in.

I do not get it,I have hired extremely talented skilled trade workers but for the most part they are only good from 7 am until 12 noon because at 12 noon it becomes beer and weed thirty,and you might as well go home.

A majority of the crews are comprised of closed groups of workers that form up from their country of origin.You will not see Cuban crews mixing with Mexican crews etc. and they do not blink at working 12-14 hours per day.

I think if I was going to pull a major project in Detroit it would take bringing a crew up there.

But as mentioned with the insane amount of work going on you would have to import or be standing at the border in order to collect enough.

But if you find one already here,one phone call and within 48 hours they can have 100 of their family members across borders as long as there is work involved.

[bartocktoo]

The 70s was recession related so people would travel for work just like when to market crashed in 2009 a lot of the trade workers moved on to the fracking industry.

The south is massively building based on imported labor and unless you speak Spanish and willing to work for $15 per hour as a skilled trade,good luck.

If you are bi lingual then you can make good money running crews as long as you are willing to lower your standards because you are not building anything that will be expected to last more then 10 years anyways and as long as you are within 2” of being out of square it is acceptable.

The plus side is if you have a skill and are good at it you can hang your own shingle and make as much money as you want to from day one,until you have to start hiring people,then Gistoks analysis kicks in.

I do not get it,I have hired extremely talented skilled trade workers but for the most part they are only good from 7 am until 12 noon because at 12 noon it becomes beer and weed thirty,and you might as well go home.

A majority of the crews are comprised of closed groups of workers that form up from their country of origin.You will not see Cuban crews mixing with Mexican crews etc. and they do not blink at working 12-14 hours per day.

I think if I was going to pull a major project in Detroit it would take bringing a crew up there.

But as mentioned with the insane amount of work going on you would have to import or be standing at the border in order to collect enough.

But if you find one already here,one phone call and within 48 hours they can have 100 of their family members across borders as long as there is work involved.

I almost have to respect your horrible and open racism. At least it's open.

[Richard]

^ it is racist when you make it racist in your mind.

Florida is a state of many countries within and they rarely mix,that is not racist it is the way it is and a way of life.

You are welcome to come here and convey your thoughts to all of those different nationalities, but do not be to surprised if they really do not care about how you view it.

You would be ragged running around playing the race card down here because everybody dislikes everybody,it has zero to do with racism and a lot to do with past histories that most would not even have a clue about.

It is no different then the early days of Detroit and every other city in the country where immigrants stuck to clicks for many reasons,none of them being racist.

[bartocktoo]

It's racist when it's racist. And I don't like throwing that word around unless I'm talking to a fucking dumb ass.

[Richard]

^ then stop talking to yourself.

If you are that quick to throw out the racism card without having a clue about what you are discussing or even making the slightest attempt to understand the metrics behind it all,then you are describing yourself.

[bartocktoo]

"The metrics behind it all", and I'm describing myself? Do you realize how ignorant and obtuse that is? You aren't using English right. Are you gaslighting? I'll answer that for you - YES.

But I don't want to get in trouble here for causing conflict with someone who couldn't define the word anyway. So Good Luck. Dick.

[Johnnny5]

As most skilled construction workers start out as apprentices or general laborers, there is good reason to consider the impact that illegal immigration has had on these positions. Thanks to two decades of nearly unabated illegal immigration, wages for general labor had been stagnant [[And falling when compared to inflation) for a very long time. There should be little surprise that an entire generation of young American workers had little interest in entering these fields, and now we're going to pay the price for it.

[Jason]

Only about 1% of Michigan residents are illegal immigrants. A portion of those are going to be people who were here legitimately but whose visas have expired [[but who don't plan on staying in the US long-term). 1% is not really a number that's going to have any big effects on anything.

The reason there are less construction workers is because it's an unappealing job.

[Richard]

As most skilled construction workers start out as apprentices or general laborers, there is good reason to consider the impact that illegal immigration has had on these positions. Thanks to two decades of nearly unabated illegal immigration, wages for general labor had been stagnant [[And falling when compared to inflation) for a very long time. There should be little surprise that an entire generation of young American workers had little interest in entering these fields, and now we're going to pay the price for it.

That in a nutshell along with the defunding of the trades programs in the school systems of the past.

Federal funding has been allotted for vo-tech training and tax credits for apprenticeship programs which will help but we got so far behind the curve ball it will take years to catch up.

In Florida I really cannot blame most,what skilled trades person or youngster is going to want to jump up in an attic of 100 degrees for $15 per hour to run HVAC.

There is also a misconception in the public regarding skilled labor,take somebody that has spent years in a trade gaining knowledge and seniority and because they are not college degreed they are treated as less important to society.

A water main broke in front of my house,the guy fixing it was waist deep in mud and water replacing the valve.

His pay? $10 per hour.

Screw that,I would rather flip burgers for $15 per hour and be in the A/C.

[Johnnny5]

Only about 1% of Michigan residents are illegal immigrants. A portion of those are going to be people who were here legitimately but whose visas have expired [[but who don't plan on staying in the US long-term). 1% is not really a number that's going to have any big effects on anything.

The reason there are less construction workers is because it's an unappealing job.

So what makes these fields less appealing than they were a generation ago? I'll just answer my own question and state that it's always been hard work [[Even more so in the past). It's being expected to do hard work with insufficient financial compensation that makes it "unappealing". I'll also say that if you don't think that illegal immigration is having an out sized impact on the construction industry in Michigan, you probably haven't been on many construction sites in the past few decades.

[Richard]

^ ooooooo you know if you try and explain the realities of it all you are just racist.

Some will never understand the impacts of supply and demand when it comes to labor and what drives it.

I know for a fact spending years learning multiple trades to the point of clearing a couple of hundred grand a year with no debt is a better reality then going into debt with 4 years of collage with little prospects.

It makes it a bit more appealing in the end,although my body tends to disagree.

But we also have to be careful as there are still a lot of the younger generation that are willing to do the work and learn,so it is on us to keep in the politics of it all so they also have a chance.

[Hermod]

If we really want to bring race into the discussion, why does Detroit have a shortage of construction workers with so many unemployed in the city? Are they just unemployable?