Michigan is Imploding Again

**bigboat** · March-06-20, 09:50 AM

With the latest Art Van going out of business sale, Great Lakes Steel closing most of their Zug Island operation there is a possibility that more than 10,000 Michigan jobs will be lost and will not be coming back anytime soon. Another super large concern is the possibility of Ford Motor Co. going bankrupt. Ford stock price has lost more than 12% of its value in the last week. Ford stock the last time I checked at $6.89. Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV. Don't even mention the Focus/Fiesta transmission class action lawsuit that is going to cost Ford more than $500 million.

**Zacha341** · March-06-20, 10:09 AM

Yeah the Ford situation is ridiculous - a pattern of selling cars with a short-shelf life. Especially their compact models. How can they compete with say Toyota or even Hundai with that??

That 'transmission' issue was really nuts in that some customers were summarily told the slipping was normal... I'd never purchase a used Ford. NEVER.

Perhaps their trucks and SUV sales will rebound. Or they come up with a fast muscle car to rival what Chrysler is doing.

**Gistok** · March-06-20, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

With the latest Art Van going out of business sale, Great Lakes Steel closing most of their Zug Island operation there is a possibility that more than 10,000 Michigan jobs will be lost and will not be coming back anytime soon. Another super large concern is the possibility of Ford Motor Co. going bankrupt. Ford stock price has lost more than 12% of its value in the last week. Ford stock the last time I checked at $6.89. Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV. Don't even mention the Focus/Fiesta transmission class action lawsuit that is going to cost Ford more than $500 million.

I'm not sure 10,000 jobs "will not be coming back soon". Maybe not those jobs....

**bigboat** · March-06-20, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I'm not sure 10,000 jobs "will not be coming back soon". Maybe not those jobs....

The Art Van forecast is 5500 job loss, the Great Lakes Steel is 1600 add to that support jobs and there is a potential for a loss of 10,000 jobs.

**LongGone06** · March-06-20, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV.

Ford may or may not face bankruptcy; but, being competitive in today's market means having a strong truck and SUV [[or CUV) lineup. Passenger car sales were down nearly 11% in 2019, after declining 13% in 2018. Truck and SUV sales accounted for 70% of the market in 2019. Even though Toyota is sticking with sedans, its passenger car sales were down roughly 4% in 2019; it is eliminating several models; and, it sold significantly more trucks and SUVs than cars.

**jcole** · March-06-20, 10:48 AM

I think the 5500 Art Van jobs are across 6 states.

Originally Posted by bigboat

The Art Van forecast is 5500 job loss, the Great Lakes Steel is 1600 add to that support jobs and there is a potential for a loss of 10,000 jobs.

**mikeg19** · March-06-20, 11:16 AM

Ford won't go bankrupt. They're sitting on a liquid war chest that most companies could only ever dream about. They definitely need to get their crap together this year and I'd say broom Hackett, but we will see.

**Zacha341** · March-06-20, 11:16 AM

Sedans are passenger cars - four door as apposed to Coupes [[two door hatchbacks for example). Am I missing something?

Originally Posted by LongGone06

...Even though Toyota is sticking with sedans, its passenger car sales were down roughly 4% in 2019...

**Metro25** · March-06-20, 11:28 AM

lmfao this is absurd. Michigan is not running on a zug island steel plant that payed poverty wages and art van stores. The steel plant employed nowhere near 10,000 jobs, 1/10th of that more like. Coronavirus is bringing down all the stocks right now, not specific to Ford.

But whatever enforces the doom fetish people on this site have. I guess that keeps you going for the day.

**Seven&wyo** · March-06-20, 11:29 AM

Wow the title to this thread wasn't hyperbolic at all....

**313WX** · March-06-20, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by bigboat

With the latest Art Van going out of business sale, Great Lakes Steel closing most of their Zug Island operation there is a possibility that more than 10,000 Michigan jobs will be lost and will not be coming back anytime soon. Another super large concern is the possibility of Ford Motor Co. going bankrupt. Ford stock price has lost more than 12% of its value in the last week. Ford stock the last time I checked at $6.89. Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV. Don't even mention the Focus/Fiesta transmission class action lawsuit that is going to cost Ford more than $500 million.

GM isn't doing all that hot under the surface either.

They continue to exit the world and are virtually putting all of their eggs in the basket of electric cars and autonomous vehicles, despite the fact that the national infrastructure won't be in place to support these products for well over a decade.

**bust** · March-06-20, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Seven&wyo

Wow the title to this thread wasn't hyperbolic at all....

I would have thought this thread was started by 313WX except there was no mention of a ranking or a list.

**313WX** · March-06-20, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Ford won't go bankrupt. They're sitting on a liquid war chest that most companies could only ever dream about. They definitely need to get their crap together this year and I'd say broom Hackett, but we will see.

The war chest isn't as big as you make it seem.

Ford only has $34 billion in cash on hand [[and that's including everything it would have to mortgage), but current liabilities are $98 Billion in total. All it will take is a mere several consecutive quarters of losses to wipe out that "chest."

True, Ford has a war chest most companies can only dream about, but it also has overhead that most companies only have nightmares about.

**bust** · March-06-20, 12:30 PM

I agree Michigan has some structural issues to resolve.
Many related to government, districting, taxation, and the way tax revenues are allocated.
A lot of others related to segregation and the cultural issues that result. Not unrelated to the issues I previously mentioned above.
Let's fix them.
And don't overlook our strengths, let's not lose them:
Our tradition of worksmanship, entrepreneurialism, our natural resources, and our location on a prime international border.
Manufacturing is critical to our region, but I don't regret the closing of Zug Island. It's about time. An outdated, environmentally and socially irresponsible manufacturing facility like few still exist except for in low wage low regulation countries overseas.
Look forward, and abandon the backward Detroit.
That means figuring out how to profit from selling more than just gas guzzlers.
Rivian, anyone?
We can do this!

**401don** · March-06-20, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Metro25

lmfao this is absurd. Michigan is not running on a zug island steel plant that payed poverty wages and art van stores. The steel plant employed nowhere near 10,000 jobs, 1/10th of that more like. Coronavirus is bringing down all the stocks right now, not specific to Ford.

But whatever enforces the doom fetish people on this site have. I guess that keeps you going for the day.

While I agree with your first sentence. Ford stock is indeed struggling terribly and has been long before coronavirus.

**ParisianLesion** · March-06-20, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by bigboat

With the latest Art Van going out of business sale, Great Lakes Steel closing most of their Zug Island operation there is a possibility that more than 10,000 Michigan jobs will be lost and will not be coming back anytime soon. Another super large concern is the possibility of Ford Motor Co. going bankrupt. Ford stock price has lost more than 12% of its value in the last week. Ford stock the last time I checked at $6.89. Ford sales are down year over year and Ford is just not competitive unless you want a truck or SUV. Don't even mention the Focus/Fiesta transmission class action lawsuit that is going to cost Ford more than $500 million.

IMO, the recent setting aside of transit legislation changes that would have likely resulted in passing a transit millage is a much bigger problem than any of these.

FoMoCo is not going to go bankrupt. Share value has nothing to do with bankruptcy. The company is still privately controlled and has $37B in cash-on-hand. It faces major challenges right now to be sure but stock price is more indicative of an evolving automotive market and the market's confidence in how Ford is meeting those changes - but saying bankruptcy is just going too far. Remember 2008? Ford Stock was practically junk, in the $1.00 range. Did they go bankrupt or even get a government handout? Nope.

As for ArtVan, they've been out of touch with consumer demand and changing retail for a long time now. Quite frankly, this has been coming for a decade. Also, they aren't even a local company anymore, the VanElslander's smartly took their value out of the company when they sold it to a PE in 2017. ArtVan's liquidation was practically guaranteed when that happened. That's what PEs do. The only real loss here are the employees who, with no disrespect intended for their hardship, should not have a hard time finding an equivalent job in the current economic environment.

For Great Lakes Steel, you can partly thank the man in the white house for that one. However, steel production in the U.S. has been tenuous for some time now and currently particularly susceptible to macro market forces. I wouldn't be surprised if this is more of a "pause" than a true end to production at this facility. But either way, these workers aren't going to have a hard time finding other work either. A lot of this has more to do with a shifting economy than some sort of "implosion."

**313WX** · March-06-20, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by ParisianLesion

Remember 2008? Ford Stock was practically junk, in the $1.00 range. Did they go bankrupt or even get a government handout? Nope.

1. Ford did receive a $6 Billion dollar loan to use towards their R&D. It just wasn't called a "bailout," since they seeked this out separately from the package GM & Chrysler received and their bankruptcies buried this news.

And that's not to even mention the additional $16 billion that Ford Credit alone received.

2. The only reason Ford didn't go bankrupt is because Bill Ford finally got a clue and brought in a leader that was competent for once [[Alan Mulally) who had the foresight to mortgage all of their assets [[including the Blue Oval). Ford alone had this luxury because they had begun crashing and burning before GM and Chrysler did, and thus could explore this option before the credit markets froze.

**ParisianLesion** · March-06-20, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

1. Ford did receive a $6 Billion dollar loan to use towards their R&D. It just wasn't called a "bailout," since they seeked this out separately from the package GM & Chrysler received and their bankruptcies buried this news.

And that's not to even mention the additional $16 billion that Ford Credit alone received.

2. The only reason Ford didn't go bankrupt is because Bill Ford finally got a clue and brought in a leader that was competent for once [[Alan Mulally) who had the foresight to mortgage all of their assets [[including the Blue Oval). Ford alone had this luxury because they had begun crashing and burning before GM and Chrysler did, and thus could explore this option before the credit markets froze.

The fact that the credit markets froze is exactly why Ford sought the $6B line of credit from the government. One of many large companies and individuals who did so. Not sure this was buried, it just wasn't the same. As you said, it was for R&D - not financial survival which is the point here.

I do agree that Ford currently needs better leadership which I think is also reflected in their current stock price.

**iheartthed** · March-06-20, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by bust

Rivian, anyone?
We can do this!

Right, Rivian is one of the hottest startup stories of 2020.

**Wheels** · March-06-20, 01:39 PM

If Whitmer gets her way with tax hikes the rest of big business will leave Michigan anyway. The rest of us can pay for crappy road repair with huge gas taxation. Grandhole all over again!

**bust** · March-06-20, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Wheels

If Whitmer gets her way with tax hikes the rest of big business will leave Michigan anyway. The rest of us can pay for crappy road repair with huge gas taxation. Grandhole all over again!

HAhahahohoho!
'Cause they'll move to Kansas.
We'll lose the race to the bottom.

Timeline: 5 Years of Kansas’ Tax-Cut Disaster
https://www.cbpp.org/blog/timeline-5...x-cut-disaster

'We are a cautionary tale': Kansas feels the pain of massive Trump-style tax cuts
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...nomic-disaster

That race is to shameful defeat.

**Wheels** · March-06-20, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by bust

HAhahahohoho!
'Cause they'll move to Kansas.
We'll lose the race to the bottom.

Timeline: 5 Years of Kansas’ Tax-Cut Disaster
https://www.cbpp.org/blog/timeline-5...x-cut-disaster

'We are a cautionary tale': Kansas feels the pain of massive Trump-style tax cuts
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...nomic-disaster

That race is to shameful defeat.

Guess I forgot to read the right wing swill rags!

**softailrider** · March-06-20, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

The war chest isn't as big as you make it seem.

Ford only has $34 billion in cash on hand [[and that's including everything it would have to mortgage), but current liabilities are $98 Billion in total. All it will take is a mere several consecutive quarters of losses to wipe out that "chest."

True, Ford has a war chest most companies can only dream about, but it also has overhead that most companies only have nightmares about.

In spite of extremely low interest rates, low stock price and high yearly dividends, I do not agree with Ford stock being utilized as any type of investment vehicle [[pun intended). While I don’t think there’s any chance of that company going out of business, I don’t want their stock. If you’re looking for dividends, IMO there are better choices out there.

**Richard** · March-06-20, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by bust

HAhahahohoho!
'Cause they'll move to Kansas.
We'll lose the race to the bottom.

Timeline: 5 Years of Kansas’ Tax-Cut Disaster
https://www.cbpp.org/blog/timeline-5...x-cut-disaster

'We are a cautionary tale': Kansas feels the pain of massive Trump-style tax cuts
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...nomic-disaster

That race is to shameful defeat.

Currently, six states – Nevada, Ohio, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming – do not have a corporate income tax. However, four of those states – Nevada, Ohio, Texas, and Washington – do have some form of gross receipts tax on corporations. Moreover, five of those states – Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming – as well as Alaska and Florida currently have no personal income tax. Individuals in New Hampshire and Tennessee are only taxed on interest and dividend income.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...ncome-tax.html

Funny how all of those states do not have an issue with low taxes,Florida Even has a budget surplus along with its low tax benefits.

Hey got problems,blame Trump.

It is not how much you make,it is how you spend it.

Why is it the States with no personal income tax do just fine while the states that levy a personal income tax need more to survive?

If Michigan lowered its corporate tax and eliminated the personal income tax it would crash and burn while revolving into a third world state?

People and corporations are fleeing high tax cities and states,I know,let’s create higher tax rates in order to encourage them to stay,said nobody.

**Metro25** · March-06-20, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by ParisianLesion

For Great Lakes Steel, you can partly thank the man in the white house for that one. However, steel production in the U.S. has been tenuous for some time now and currently particularly susceptible to macro market forces. I wouldn't be surprised if this is more of a "pause" than a true end to production at this facility. But either way, these workers aren't going to have a hard time finding other work either. A lot of this has more to do with a shifting economy than some sort of "implosion."

I hope it's a permanent shutdown because that steel mill has been terrible for the city and the environment, giving residents all sorts of health problems. The health of citizens is more important than low wage jobs and as you said there are plenty of job opportunities flowing in the state's economy, lots of opportunities for skill trades, other plants openings, etc. US steel has been shutting down a lot lately it has nothing to do with Michigan. It's a bad example and makes me think OP was struggling to reach for something that enforced his narrative.

The mill shut down happened a while ago and it should be celebrated.

I also agree that I'm worried about transit more than anything else. That is the single most important thing this region needs. And Coulter was stupid to think they could depend on the anti-everything-good-for-society cult GOP controlled legislature, they must have a plan B here otherwise they're wholly incompetent. I'm really waiting to hear something from them.