West Canfield Street Repair - Granite Pavers

[JStone]

Hello Fellow DetroitYes members -

I thought I would reach out to the community here to see if by chance someone might have information to help us.

As most of you probably know, the West Canfield Historic District is a small, one street Historic District mostly consisting of Victorian homes from the late 1870's to the 1890's. The street was returned to it's former historical look back around 1980. More information about this can be found on the website - westcanfield.org.

I believe around the mid-2000's time frame, a developer who built the Nine on Third Condo's at the end of the block, tore up the west section of the cobblestone street looking for [[I believe a water hook up) a utility connection. I don't know the exact specifics. I was told there was an escrow amount set aside by the developer to cover any problems that might occur with such work. Unfortunately, that money disappeared when the city declared bankruptcy and the developer went bust. The developer was not skilled in cobblestone street repair and subsequently installed the granite pavers incorrectly when putting them back. Over the years, that section of street has deteriorated and paver stones have been coming loose. [[see photos) Residents have been collecting the loose stones over the years in hope of using them for a future repair.

Thankfully, DWSD and DPW have funded a knowledgeable firm to repair the failing sections of the street near third.

I have 2 asks.

Does anyone know where the Historic Org might find more of these pavers [[see photo)? Proper work has commenced on fixing this section and it's believed that the street contractor will not have enough saved pavers to complete the job.

And, I am told that there is not enough funding left to complete the job properly After the stones are set in a layer of concrete, the gaps between must be filled with hot tar. This method was used previously in 1980 and again a couple years ago when the water main broke. The contractor claims it's $1200 a day to rent this tar machine [[see photo). Without perhaps finding a cheaper rental solution, the gaps will be filled with sand which will not work long term.

Does anyone out there know where to find one of these machines?

Thank you.

[Richard]

You might check with roofing companies they have hot tar kettles sitting more then in use.

No help but if you were 1200 miles further south I could get you the use for free considering the project,it is cool that you guys are trying to preserve it.

Interesting though,they were not set originally in concrete and tar but lasted,we have vintage streets that were brought back to original without tar and concrete.

Depending on the concrete Most is acidic base which over time will mess with the granite.

Normally it is hard pack sand base,blocks are set tight sand is swept in the cracks but there should not be gaps.The sand was meant to just tighten up the pack.

Roman roads built 2000 years ago still intact with that method.

When we did a historic neighborhood we were lucky to find a retired city worker that used to be with the street department,kicked him a few bucks for some consultation with excellent results.

That last photo with the sunken grate,unless it is raised you wasting money,you cannot stop the ground movement from pushing everything down the hill.

City of Tampa had pallets of granite from that time frame like that but in 6’ sections that could be cut down to size,they used to use it as the curb but removed a lot when they renewed the streets.You might contact them but they are extremely hard to deal with and sometimes it takes a little grease.

They are cheating using the concrete as a foundation base and you will have the same problem yearly,a shovel,dig out the base,put in new hard pack sand and stone mix,reset the blocks using the curb to stop movement
the sand is cheap,the shovel is cheaper,the hard part is digging out the old stuff.

It is like anything else,the foundation is 99% of the job,without it you just have a bunch of pretty rocks moving about.

Best of luck though.

[Johnnny5]

I can't help with finding matching stones or a asphalt machine, but having worked on a number of paver projects over the years the mention of setting the pavers in concrete and filling in gaps with tar both sound highly questionable to me.

[Kathleen]

Have you checked with the Detroit Historic Commission or the Detroit Historical Museum about the pavers? The pavers were originally part of Atwater Street, which was torn up for the Renaissance Center construction. They were saved and, I believe, stored at Fort Wayne under the aegis of the Detroit Historical Museum. Henry Ford II gave permission to Beulah Croxford to install them on West Canfield. So...were there more pavers that remained in storage at the Fort? Check with the DHM.

[bust]

I can't help with finding matching stones or a asphalt machine, but having worked on a number of paver projects over the years the mention of setting the pavers in concrete and filling in gaps with tar both sound highly questionable to me.

Yeah, that's not how you do it.

Belgian blocks should be installed over a layer of packed sand, which sits over a layer of gravel. After the blocks are laid sand is brushed and packed into the gaps between them. It will last a few lifetimes.

Two great things about this that tar and concrete would prevent:

• Water drains between them, reducing street runoff;
• They can be relatively easily pulled out to do utility work and put back.

If they're put back with care and a little skill there will be little evidence the work was done. This kind of care and skill seems in short supply these days.

Pretty much all the streets in east coast cities have Belgian blocks under the asphalt. And since now almost all the streets are covered in asphalt when they're dug up they're not put back. They're dumped somewhere. In Philadelphia there was a pile in Fairmount Park.

[JStone]

Thank you Richard. Too bad you're 1200 miles away.

I agree with everyone. When I saw that they were repairing the middle of the street after the water main break from a couple of years ago with concrete I was surprised. I guess there is no masters really left to do this sort of thing. Take a look at these photos from 1980. It looks like there is a concrete slab foundation with a layer of asphalt. Am I right?

I can tell you that the nine on 3rd guys did just sand and gravel and that didn't work out. I believe it's all in how you lay the pattern out. If you look close on the street, it looks to be laid in over-arching fan patterns.

Also, the sewer storm drains have since been fixed by the city and no longer collapsing.

We're going to check with Fort Wayne Kathleen. It's been such a long time though...I would think they're no longer there, but who knows.

[bust]

Sure looks like asphalt over concrete-- I agree.

I'm not an expert stone mason, but I once worked alongside one, and I've long lived where the techniques of the craft are still common and easy to see.
The other thing I'll say is Belgian blocks are much more stable when they're rectangular and staggered, so there aren't long seams. Seams should especially not run parallel to traffic flow.
Laws of physics inform why traditionally they run perpendicular. Same reason why bricks traditionally are not stacked vertically in columns.
Paving stones should especially not be laid in a grid, such that they can shift in two directions.
The fan pattern is more stable. Not just decorative-- it minimizes seams.
Traditionally it's still not used for heavy traffic areas, just driveways.
Compared to the staggered approach there is more gap, less stone.
Important to note: It's no wonder the areas you show with the worst problems don't follow a traditional pattern.
They look like areas where a utility company, or the city, dug up and sloppily put pavers back again.
Penny wise and pound foolish, that was.

I suggest the best path forward is to look backward, and follow traditional paving techniques.
Good luck resolving this. It's one of Detroit's most beautiful blocks!

[p69rrh51]

The worst block of pavement in North America, and historically incorrect!