People Mover Revamped

**gthomas** · February-07-20, 08:18 AM

As we all know, the People Mover is slowly becoming less popular with citizens and visitors alike. The ideal came about several times to either remove it or expand further north throughout certain parts of the city. But no plans about it never left the table.

So I really studied and gather ideas about turning the People Mover into an "elevated walking Greenway". Removing the train itself. New York City and many other cities are turning old elevated train tracks into landscape Greenway.

Could this work for Detroit, or do you guys prefer to leave it as is?

**renf** · February-07-20, 08:48 AM

Are there data about declining patronage on the People Mover? Does any one have a quantitative estimate of the effect on People Mover patronage of the move of the Red Wings from Joe Louis to their new arena?
Have the similar People Movers in Miami and Morgantown seen a decline in patronage?

**GPCharles** · February-07-20, 10:46 AM

As an "elevated walking greenway" it would be very narrow and would go through the Cobo Hall, whatever it is named now, directly above the convention/display floor.

I ride the People Mover every workday to get from my [[more affordable) parking to my office downtown. The upcoming "about face" to travel in the other direction will be a major inconvenience for this light-rail commuter.

**EGrant** · February-07-20, 11:35 AM

I am surprised they haven't at least commissioned local artists to paint the ugly concrete pillars that hold it up. Could be a very cool part of downtown, much like the art in the Z Lot.

**gthomas** · February-07-20, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by EGrant

I am surprised they haven't at least commissioned local artists to paint the ugly concrete pillars that hold it up. Could be a very cool part of downtown, much like the art in the Z Lot.

I was thinking of maybe install vines that bloom flower on the pillars. Maybe add some cool lighting along the outside track.

**DetroitSoldier** · February-07-20, 12:00 PM

I say add LED ribbon boards in certain areas and sell advertising to help supplement income.

**Gistok** · February-07-20, 12:01 PM

Yes the beams supporting the tracks are so narrow that there is either room for a walkway [[narrow) or greenery... but not both. Usually elevated roadways are turned to green space... and they are wider.

**Meddle** · February-07-20, 12:07 PM

And then there will be the need for caging to keep people from jumping, falling or being pushed off.

**Downriviera** · February-07-20, 12:26 PM

I would like to see it expanded further south...to Miami.

**One Shot** · February-07-20, 01:42 PM

Leave it alone and improve what you got. An expansion wouldn't be a bad idea. Everyone makes jokes about the damn thing but I think it works. It has stops at a lot of downtown spots and it doesn't have to stop for idiots parked on the tracks.

**mkd** · February-07-20, 03:05 PM

Leave it as-is. Add it to the Dart payment system, accept credit/debit, maybe hike fare to an even dollar.

**NSortzi** · February-07-20, 05:10 PM

If it ever closed down they would just remove the tracks. I really doubt they’d ever even think about reusing them for something else.

**rbdetsport** · February-08-20, 01:07 AM

I vote make the wild choice to start building out the system. Michigan Ave-Telegraph-94-Airport route. Woodward-Birmingham-Somerset route. Gratiot-Mt.Clemens route. $140 million a mile. 62 miles total. $8.7 Billion. Use TAD financing within a half-mile of each of the corridors, along with a 2 millage increase [[$200 extra per year for average family), and there we have it! How cool would that be to have our own downtown loop. any stop downtown gets fed by the three routes. It would be so convenient for downtown and airport commuters!

**Jason** · February-08-20, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by renf

Are there data about declining patronage on the People Mover? Does any one have a quantitative estimate of the effect on People Mover patronage of the move of the Red Wings from Joe Louis to their new arena?
Have the similar People Movers in Miami and Morgantown seen a decline in patronage?

Here's ridership by station. For JLA there are still people at Riverfront Towers who use it, and also they're also planning to reopen the Joe's garage, so there will still be some ridership at that station, but yeah.

Station rankings

People Mover stations ranked by ridership in 2014

1. Greektown, 559,048

2. Renaissance Center 487,758
3. Cobo Center 258,026
4. Joe Louis Arena 177,618
5. Michigan 148,979
6. Times Square 129,250
7. Broadway 119,235

8. Millender 96,255
9. Cadillac 93,894

10. Bricktown 77,038
11. Financial District 75,819
*12. Grand Circus 72,774 [[2013 ridership — 136,255)
13. Fort/Cass 61,826
*Grand Circus station closed for renovations on Aug. 16, 2014.
Source: Detroit People Mover

Ridership for the 2019 calendar year was 1.6 million. For the last 20 years, other than years when construction has interrupted the system, it's usually between 2 and 2.4 million [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover). In 2018 it was still at 1.9. I really don't know what happened to make it go so low in 2019.

Looking at their website now it looks like sometime within the last few months they got a new [[interim) general manager. idk if the previous one retired [[she'd been there a billion years) or if there was a shakeup, but either way hopefully it will be a good change.

**softailrider** · February-08-20, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

Here's ridership by station. For JLA there are still people at Riverfront Towers who use it, and also they're also planning to reopen the Joe's garage, so there will still be some ridership at that station, but yeah.

Ridership for the 2019 calendar year was 1.6 million. For the last 20 years, other than years when construction has interrupted the system, it's usually between 2 and 2.4 million [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover). In 2018 it was still at 1.9. I really don't know what happened to make it go so low in 2019.

Looking at their website now it looks like sometime within the last few months they got a new [[interim) general manager. idk if the previous one retired [[she'd been there a billion years) or if there was a shakeup, but either way hopefully it will be a good change.

Kind of shocked, didn't think the ridership numbers were anywhere near that high.

**Atticus** · February-08-20, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

Here's ridership by station. For JLA there are still people at Riverfront Towers who use it, and also they're also planning to reopen the Joe's garage, so there will still be some ridership at that station, but yeah.

Ridership for the 2019 calendar year was 1.6 million. For the last 20 years, other than years when construction has interrupted the system, it's usually between 2 and 2.4 million [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_People_Mover). In 2018 it was still at 1.9. I really don't know what happened to make it go so low in 2019.

Looking at their website now it looks like sometime within the last few months they got a new [[interim) general manager. idk if the previous one retired [[she'd been there a billion years) or if there was a shakeup, but either way hopefully it will be a good change.

There are a few changes over the last few years that have hurt ridership for DPM:
1- DPM has not really adopted to a [[more) cashless society. There is a growing segment of the population that doesn’t carry cash on them, and pays entirely electronically or via card. Neither paying option is convenient for using the DPM, and as such that population doesn’t ride.
2- Downtown is a lot more safe and walkable. If you were traveling across downtown 10 years ago, many people felt uncomfortable or unsafe doing so. The DPM provided a safe ride. With the improved downtown, that fear is significantly less than in years past.
3- Smartphone Apps can navigate walkers. In years past, the Woodward plan made walking downtown difficult for unfamiliar walkers. The DPM provided an option to avoid the confusion. With GoogleMaps, that is no longer necessary.
4- The Joe is gone. JLA was always difficult to get to on foot. The people mover took hockey fans and other event goers there. No more. The massive JLA parking garage being closed also had an impact, even on days without hockey.
5- Tigers attendance is way down, because the team is awful. 81 home games can bring a lot of fans, some of whom will ride the mover. They aren’t coming to watch this baseball team.
6- Festivals in Hart Plaza are down. There used to be a lot more events there in years past [[country music hoedown, etc) that aren’t happening. Many of those patrons would use the mover.

**Jason** · February-08-20, 09:45 PM

Hear hear to expansion!

Short of expansion, what I would like to see for shorter term goals would be [[in no order):

- General renovations of the stations to improve wayfinding and functionality. Some of the stations are better than others. TCF needs deeper platforms to handle big crowds, Millender Center is confusing, Times Square has a weird door placement, Greektown is not immediately obvious, etc. Some of the stations are not in good condition.

- New vehicles. The vehicles are at the end of their lifespans, and while they're ok, they're not great. New vehicles could have bigger side windows, and panoramic front windows, better sound insulation, better climate control, wi-fi, better sound system, better lighting. They could have an open gangway connecting each vehicle, improving efficiency [[they actually go over capacity during events) and also making them more spacious.

- DART. It'd be more customer friendly [[less coin/token fussing), and it would be better financially while still being fair. Most recreational round trips would fit within the 4 hour window, making each trip $1. Office workers and downtown residents would pay more than that unless they bought longer DART passes which would bring the per trip cost back down to about $1. The dirt cheap $100 annual PM passes would be gone, which gives regular riders unreasonably low fares of less than $0.15 per ride. But being part of DART means bus riders can transfer to the PM [[part of why it was built!) without worrying about the extra fare. For non-bus riders it lowers the barrier to entry to riding the bus. DPM would sell the slightly more expensive DART passes instead of their special convention passes, but they also give QLine access and general transit passes are good for visitors to have. Joining DART makes sense.

- This is just a bookkeeping thing, but right now they do all of the transit police on DDOT buses and the QLine. They get reimbursed for it, but it still shows up as part of their expenses, so when you divide expenses by trips to get cost per trip the People Mover's is artificially high. I'm sure there's more to it, but it makes the People Mover look bad, and they need to be advocating for themselves.

- Times Square Station should be renamed to Grand River Station, or maybe Rosa Parks Transit Center. Times Square is a park that doesn't exist anymore. Cadillac Center should be renamed to Gratiot. Cadillac Center is an urban shopping mall that was never built [[how little attention to detail is there that 30+ years later this hasn't been fixed?). Fort/Cass Station should just be Fort Street Station. JLA will eventually need renaming as well.

- More communication about what the People Mover does, what projects are underway, how the system is performing, and what they're doing to improve service, longterm goals, aspirations, etc. More general polish and professionalism in all aspects.

**renf** · February-09-20, 08:06 AM

Thank you very much for the information about the number of patrons. I thought the People Mover carried about 2.1 million passengers each year but I am glad to view data. Perhaps the two leading causes of the recent decline in patronage are the move of the Red Wings away from Joe Louis and the variety of improvements in downtown Detroit that make it
a dessirable place to walk around.
Thanks

**401don** · February-09-20, 11:55 AM

I agree the location of the new arena doesn't benefit PM usage but it's not just Tigers attendance that's down. Wings & Pistons are drawing about half of what they would if they were playoff teams. There are less people going to Greektown restaurants, hotels, etc. before and after games. The loss of the auto show this Jan. will also hurt.

**Gistok** · February-09-20, 12:12 PM

I'm not sure if not carrying cash has much of an effect on the PM numbers. As much as more of the world is now cashless, there are still some places where cash is smart to have around. The nearest party store to me here in SCS won't even process credit card orders under $5, and some rare places cash is more convenient.

I always have $12 on me at all times. You never know when you need to go to a laundromat, or vending machine.

Also the DPM stations sell tokens... you can get however many you might want or need.

Not saying everyone is inconvenienced by the requirement of cash, but having a backup plan can be prudent.

One of these days we're going to get another solar flair, like the big one of 1859, and when all electric service is either shut down in anticipation, or worse... the power grid gets fried... having some sort of cash backup plan is not a bad idea.... although it won't allow for pumping gas....

**iheartthed** · February-09-20, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I'm not sure if not carrying cash has much of an effect on the PM numbers. As much as more of the world is now cashless, there are still some places where cash is smart to have around. The nearest party store to me here in SCS won't even process credit card orders under $5, and some rare places cash is more convenient.

I always have $12 on me at all times. You never know when you need to go to a laundromat, or vending machine.

Also the DPM stations sell tokens... you can get however many you might want or need.

Not saying everyone is inconvenienced by the requirement of cash, but having a backup plan can be prudent.

One of these days we're going to get another solar flair, like the big one of 1859, and when all electric service is either shut down in anticipation, or worse... the power grid gets fried... having some sort of cash backup plan is not a bad idea.... although it won't allow for pumping gas....

I'm kind of embarrassed to say it, but I went at least three months without having a single dollar in my wallet. My bank sent me a new ATM card around October which I did not even activate until last week in order to pull out cash because I knew that the restaurant I was going to was cash only.

**stasu1213** · February-09-20, 04:23 PM

Would not it be costly to expand it being that it is elevated and to come up with concrete and steel could be a bit pricey especially for an elevated railway. Just imagine how far up Woodward the people mover could had gone if the thing was built street level. It was built when Detroit wasn’t serious about having light rail especially after Coleman Young had gotten into office. The people mover had connected the islolated RenCen to the rest of the then failing downtown. It was a glamorized elevated trolley

**Tig3rzhark** · February-09-20, 05:15 PM

Now that we got "all these people" coming back to Detroit, it would be a good idea, to finally push an expansion to good use. Most of the obstacles to "proper public transit" for metro Detroit, are starting to fade..so why not finally go all in?