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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    They are $35,000 to $125,000 a nice S model around $85,000 0 to 60 mph in 2.5 seconds.

    There is a showroom a couple of block from my house and the interior does not seem to be any different then other US made models quality wise.
    0-60 in 2.5 seconds? That's faster or equal to some european speedsters, from M-B, BMW or Porsche.

  2. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid View Post
    I agree. What's the point of saving gas, if it adds more time to the trip to charge the battery? I'm not in on electric vehicles at all. I hope the automakers don't dumb down, and make all vehicles electric, like they just decided to dump sedans in favor of Trucks, Crossovers and SUV's.
    At this time it would cut out anybody traveling for business or on a time frame,some of those take up to 60 minutes for a charge and that is starting out with a full overnight charge.

    I checked it Tampa to Detroit and it was $126 in fuel savings,not worth my time anyways.

    If I remember right,part of the agreement in the whole auto bailout thing was they had to be in development of electric cars within a timeframe.

    That has to be hard on the majors,they have to create an entire company with the supporting infrastructure and employees just for the electric car aspect.

    I know they did it in the past,GM busses,refrigerators etc. but times are different.

    Thats when I think Tesla will pay off,as it stands the manufacturers do not build thier own parts anymore like the past,they just assemble sourced parts.

    Those sprinter commercial vans are all Mercedes built,they just re badge them,they could take a Tesla and throw a blue oval on it and call it a Ford and they are in business.
    Last edited by Richard; January-11-20 at 10:03 AM.

  3. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid View Post
    0-60 in 2.5 seconds? That's faster or equal to some european speedsters, from M-B, BMW or Porsche.
    The high end Tesla’s have auto drive,punch in the gps and it takes you there automatically.

    It had a bug that is probably fixed now where it did not recognize the space under the trailer of a semi and killed a guy after it turned under one,so they are already electric and self driving.

  4. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Driving a Tesla from Las Vegas to Detroit will add 9 hours during the trip when allowing for charging and one would be restricted to the beaten path.

    It not the point it cannot be done but who plans a trip dependent on a charging station and it is not like you can call AAA for a jump start.

    https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=MS_2...27,-83.0457538
    Will an ICE vehicle make the trip in less time? Yes. But you're ignoring the fact that you can stay overnight at a hotel with a destination charger so that cuts back on some of the 9 hours of charging time. You'd start out with a full battery in the morning. Superchargers are often located near many restaurants and stores, so you can grab a bite to eat (which you'd do anyway driving an ICE vehicle) while your car is charging. Also, how often will someone be taking multi-day road trips? Everyone I know rarely drives more than 100 miles in a day. So the added time to charge during a multi day road trip is a minor inconvenience compared to all the other benefits of driving a Tesla. Also, Tesla's in-car entertainment will keep you plenty busy and distracted while your car is charging.

  5. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid View Post
    Don't know how true it is, but I've heard the use of quality materials, are lacking in the Tesla, especially interior components. How much do they cost anyway?
    I think the interiors of Teslas are uninviting, but I like the exterior aesthetic qualities of the Model S. The other Teslas look weird to me.

    Where Ford can tend to throw in a lot of distracting bells and whistles, Teslas have nothing but an instrument panel, dashboard, and an iPad looking console mounted to the dashboard. They are a status symbol because of the novelty, especially in California, but an Audi or Mercedes they are not. But at least they're American cars...

  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mind field View Post
    Will an ICE vehicle make the trip in less time? Yes. But you're ignoring the fact that you can stay overnight at a hotel with a destination charger so that cuts back on some of the 9 hours of charging time. You'd start out with a full battery in the morning. Superchargers are often located near many restaurants and stores, so you can grab a bite to eat (which you'd do anyway driving an ICE vehicle) while your car is charging. Also, how often will someone be taking multi-day road trips? Everyone I know rarely drives more than 100 miles in a day. So the added time to charge during a multi day road trip is a minor inconvenience compared to all the other benefits of driving a Tesla. Also, Tesla's in-car entertainment will keep you plenty busy and distracted while your car is charging.

    Lol you sound like a Tesla commercial.

    Take the average person or family driving from Las Vegas to Detroit with vacation time to visit family,they want to get there.

    Driving 100 miles a day is less then 2 hours,how long would it take them at that pace?

    Most families that i know throw a cooler in the back with drinks and sandwiches for the kids and tag team driving in order to get to the destination,imagine the hotel and stopping costs when driving 100 miles a day with kids,are we there yet?

    Until they can supply the masses at all incomes they are in essence a novelty,kinda like the IPhone was.

    If somebody is traveling for leisure or is retired with no place to be that is one thing,but what percentage of the traveling population would that cover?

    What happens in cases like here in Florida if a hurricane comes through and you have a couple of weeks with no power,or in the case of Puerto Rico with the recent earthquake and expecting no power for the next year.

    Its not like you can just fire up the little generator and charge her up.

    If you break down on the side of the highway,who is authorized to fix the thing and how long does it take?

    For me,maybe as of now a second car as a novelty that’s electric but there are to many variables.

    How many can fix their own electric car?

    I am guessing only Tesla and their machine can fix it,I do not know.

    I am not a Tesla hater,like I already posted,I just think the car itself is irrelevant,it is the technology it is producing at light speed in comparison to how the auto industry first started and advanced through the years.
    Last edited by Richard; January-11-20 at 03:11 PM.

  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Lol you sound like a Tesla commercial.

    Take the average person or family driving from Las Vegas to Detroit with vacation time to visit family,they want to get there.

    Driving 100 miles a day is less then 2 hours,how long would it take them at that pace?

    Most families that i know throw a cooler in the back with drinks and sandwiches for the kids and tag team driving in order to get to the destination,imagine the hotel and stopping costs when driving 100 miles a day with kids,are we there yet?

    Until they can supply the masses at all incomes they are in essence a novelty,kinda like the IPhone was.

    If somebody is traveling for leisure or is retired with no place to be that is one thing,but what percentage of the traveling population would that cover?

    What happens in cases like here in Florida if a hurricane comes through and you have a couple of weeks with no power,or in the case of Puerto Rico with the recent earthquake and expecting no power for the next year.

    Its not like you can just fire up the little generator and charge her up.

    If you break down on the side of the highway,who is authorized to fix the thing and how long does it take?

    For me,maybe as of now a second car as a novelty that’s electric but there are to many variables.

    How many can fix their own electric car?

    I am guessing only Tesla and their machine can fix it,I do not know.

    I am not a Tesla hater,like I already posted,I just think the car itself is irrelevant,it is the technology it is producing at light speed in comparison to how the auto industry first started and advanced through the years.
    Let me clarify. I did not suggest that when someone embarks on a multi-day road trip, that they only travel 100 miles a day to get to their destination. I asked how often someone goes on a long road trip to begin with? Most people do it once or twice a year, if that. In general, most people drive 100 miles a day or less for their daily commute to their job. So on a day to day basis, charging your Tesla or other electric vehicle will be a non-issue if you install a charging station or have access to one close to your home. You just get home, plug your car in like you do your cell phone and the next day you have a full battery to commute to work. No more going to nasty gas stations!

    I might sound like a Tesla commercial only because I'm trying to combat the ignorance and misinformation out there surrounding electric vehicles. The oil industry sure does want people believing that electric vehicles aren't viable, but Tesla has proven that to be false! I can imagine it's like when the first model Ts started showing up, replacing the horse and carriage. There was likely widespread criticism of the newfandangled devices for several reasons: there wasn't a robust supporting infrastructure yet, people fear change, and the livelihood of some people were threatened. Now what would you do if today you saw someone commuting to work via horse and buggy?

    Electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts than ICE vehicles and will require less maintenance. If they do break down for whatever reason, you'd call a towing company just like you would for an ICE vehicle. I can't speak to the responsiveness of Tesla roadside assistance, but Tesla DOES have roadside assistance.

  8. #33

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    I have a few thoughts on this, as a 3-year owner of a Chevy Volt. I love the car, but I don't see myself or anyone in my family going pure-EV any time soon. For what it's worth, 2/3 of the 50k miles I have on my car have been in pure-electric mode. The EV purists think the Volt is some form of 'ICE garbage' (maybe I read too many EV forums?), but I think it's really the perfect commuter car for today. I should also mention that it cost in the mid-20's, brand new (this was when the full tax credit was still applicable).

    I really think the Chevy Volt was misunderstood by the public. But this is the same public that, in my opinion - outside of the enthusiasts - is not ready to go EV for the most part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mind field View Post
    Let me clarify. I did not suggest that when someone embarks on a multi-day road trip, that they only travel 100 miles a day to get to their destination. I asked how often someone goes on a long road trip to begin with? Most people do it once or twice a year, if that. In general, most people drive 100 miles a day or less for their daily commute to their job. So on a day to day basis, charging your Tesla or other electric vehicle will be a non-issue if you install a charging station or have access to one close to your home. You just get home, plug your car in like you do your cell phone and the next day you have a full battery to commute to work. No more going to nasty gas stations!
    I figure I found online states that a Model 3 requires about 0.227 kWh per mile. We can assume that in the winter, this is significantly reduced whether due to air temperature (exacerbated by short trips) and cabin heating. I could say a reduction of 50 % (I've seen it), but let's drop that down to 40 % to be fair.

    To obtain 100 miles of charge, we need 22.7 kWh based on the figure above. Consider a 90 % efficiency in the charger (ballpark estimate), and worst-case in the winter requiring 40 % extra capacity to make up for the cold-weather loss. We're up to 63.1 kWh of required charge overnight. Assume the car is plugged in at 10 pm and the driver departs for work at 7 am. Again, just estimates for example. That's 9 hours of charge time. To achieve 63.1 kWh over 9 hours, we need to provide 7 kW per hour. That's just under a 30 amp continuous draw, all night.

    For some (many?) homes, that's not a dealbreaker, though it's a significant installation. But there are a lot of situations where installing a 30 A 240 V service to the garage isn't necessarily easy...and it won't be cheap.

    Speaking from personal experience, my detached garage has only a 20 A 240 V service. I'd have to dig up a patio to upgrade (this is not going to happen). So I am stuck with a much slower charge rate.

    I might sound like a Tesla commercial only because I'm trying to combat the ignorance and misinformation out there surrounding electric vehicles. The oil industry sure does want people believing that electric vehicles aren't viable, but Tesla has proven that to be false! I can imagine it's like when the first model Ts started showing up, replacing the horse and carriage. There was likely widespread criticism of the newfandangled devices for several reasons: there wasn't a robust supporting infrastructure yet, people fear change, and the livelihood of some people were threatened. Now what would you do if today you saw someone commuting to work via horse and buggy?
    Maybe there is a vast conspiracy by the oil industry, but there is also some reality. I drive up north and to the other side of the state regularly to see family. I can bring my 120 V charge cable and plug into their garage - but that's not ideal ("hey, can I grab some free electricity from you?"). This is the sort of situation where I just revert to driving on gas.

    Electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts than ICE vehicles and will require less maintenance. If they do break down for whatever reason, you'd call a towing company just like you would for an ICE vehicle. I can't speak to the responsiveness of Tesla roadside assistance, but Tesla DOES have roadside assistance.
    Yes, and no. I can't speak to their service (I've heard mixed). But not just anyone can work on the car. This is true for my Volt, too. In the few instances I've needed service, I've had to wait an extended period of time for the special-trained technician to become available. Not just anyone has the experience or tools to work on an EV. Of course, this will change over time.

    But more importantly, I think the maintenance needs of a modern ICE is largely over-stated. Yes, there are fluids that need to be changed over time. Yes, there are a lot of moving parts. But outright failure? Not really. I don't think I've ever had to have major work done on an engine or transmission (yes, this is just my personal experience, I know it happens). But EV electronics haven't proven to be bullet-proof, either. All of the service calls I can think of over the last dozen-ish years have been for issues outside of the powertrain. Suspension, air conditioning, issues with interior systems, etc. I'd be interested to see a numerical breakdown of this sort of thing. For this, EVs and ICE vehicles wouldn't really be much different. Brake maintenance, depending upon how hard you drive, should be significantly less in an EV (or a PHEV, for that matter).

    As I final thought, I design power electronics for a living. So I have some insight into what is or is not reliable with this stuff. It will be interesting to see how well EV powertrains hold up after 10 years in northern climates.

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by wazootyman View Post
    I have a few thoughts on this, as a 3-year owner of a Chevy Volt. I love the car, but I don't see myself or anyone in my family going pure-EV any time soon. For what it's worth, 2/3 of the 50k miles I have on my car have been in pure-electric mode. The EV purists think the Volt is some form of 'ICE garbage' (maybe I read too many EV forums?), but I think it's really the perfect commuter car for today. I should also mention that it cost in the mid-20's, brand new (this was when the full tax credit was still applicable).

    I really think the Chevy Volt was misunderstood by the public. But this is the same public that, in my opinion - outside of the enthusiasts - is not ready to go EV for the most part.



    I figure I found online states that a Model 3 requires about 0.227 kWh per mile. We can assume that in the winter, this is significantly reduced whether due to air temperature (exacerbated by short trips) and cabin heating. I could say a reduction of 50 % (I've seen it), but let's drop that down to 40 % to be fair.

    To obtain 100 miles of charge, we need 22.7 kWh based on the figure above. Consider a 90 % efficiency in the charger (ballpark estimate), and worst-case in the winter requiring 40 % extra capacity to make up for the cold-weather loss. We're up to 63.1 kWh of required charge overnight. Assume the car is plugged in at 10 pm and the driver departs for work at 7 am. Again, just estimates for example. That's 9 hours of charge time. To achieve 63.1 kWh over 9 hours, we need to provide 7 kW per hour. That's just under a 30 amp continuous draw, all night.

    For some (many?) homes, that's not a dealbreaker, though it's a significant installation. But there are a lot of situations where installing a 30 A 240 V service to the garage isn't necessarily easy...and it won't be cheap.

    Speaking from personal experience, my detached garage has only a 20 A 240 V service. I'd have to dig up a patio to upgrade (this is not going to happen). So I am stuck with a much slower charge rate.



    Maybe there is a vast conspiracy by the oil industry, but there is also some reality. I drive up north and to the other side of the state regularly to see family. I can bring my 120 V charge cable and plug into their garage - but that's not ideal ("hey, can I grab some free electricity from you?"). This is the sort of situation where I just revert to driving on gas.



    Yes, and no. I can't speak to their service (I've heard mixed). But not just anyone can work on the car. This is true for my Volt, too. In the few instances I've needed service, I've had to wait an extended period of time for the special-trained technician to become available. Not just anyone has the experience or tools to work on an EV. Of course, this will change over time.

    But more importantly, I think the maintenance needs of a modern ICE is largely over-stated. Yes, there are fluids that need to be changed over time. Yes, there are a lot of moving parts. But outright failure? Not really. I don't think I've ever had to have major work done on an engine or transmission (yes, this is just my personal experience, I know it happens). But EV electronics haven't proven to be bullet-proof, either. All of the service calls I can think of over the last dozen-ish years have been for issues outside of the powertrain. Suspension, air conditioning, issues with interior systems, etc. I'd be interested to see a numerical breakdown of this sort of thing. For this, EVs and ICE vehicles wouldn't really be much different. Brake maintenance, depending upon how hard you drive, should be significantly less in an EV (or a PHEV, for that matter).

    As I final thought, I design power electronics for a living. So I have some insight into what is or is not reliable with this stuff. It will be interesting to see how well EV powertrains hold up after 10 years in northern climates.
    Question: You sound like you've done extension research and thought into your EV ownership. How much more does daily charging your vehicle add to your monthly electric bill?

  10. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mind field View Post
    Let me clarify. I did not suggest that when someone embarks on a multi-day road trip, that they only travel 100 miles a day to get to their destination. I asked how often someone goes on a long road trip to begin with? Most people do it once or twice a year, if that. In general, most people drive 100 miles a day or less for their daily commute to their job. So on a day to day basis, charging your Tesla or other electric vehicle will be a non-issue if you install a charging station or have access to one close to your home. You just get home, plug your car in like you do your cell phone and the next day you have a full battery to commute to work. No more going to nasty gas stations!

    I might sound like a Tesla commercial only because I'm trying to combat the ignorance and misinformation out there surrounding electric vehicles. The oil industry sure does want people believing that electric vehicles aren't viable, but Tesla has proven that to be false! I can imagine it's like when the first model Ts started showing up, replacing the horse and carriage. There was likely widespread criticism of the newfandangled devices for several reasons: there wasn't a robust supporting infrastructure yet, people fear change, and the livelihood of some people were threatened. Now what would you do if today you saw someone commuting to work via horse and buggy?

    Electric vehicles have far fewer moving parts than ICE vehicles and will require less maintenance. If they do break down for whatever reason, you'd call a towing company just like you would for an ICE vehicle. I can't speak to the responsiveness of Tesla roadside assistance, but Tesla DOES have roadside assistance.

    Back in the old days if you wanted to go into town,you hitched up the horse and considered it a day trip.Most were born,raised and died never leaving a 50 mile radius.

    The automobile comes along,what made it so popular?

    The freedom of movement,it is irrelevant how many 1000 mile trips one actually makes,the freedom is in knowing that we can if we want.

    What you see in these discussions is what companies spend millions on market research on,public opinion,to call people ignorant because they have thier thoughts is not really the way to go and goes down the road of forced change,which is happening already in Europe.

    We are discussing something that is really take another 50 years to implement widespread,but we are subsidizing now.

    Trains,planes,motorcycles,boats,snowmobiles,farm equipment etc long term it is about phasing out millions of products,jobs,infrastructure etc. that is not happing overnight.

    To say the oil companies do not want us to believe EVs to become popular is hogwash,they supply the fuel to the power plants,the base for all of the components used in creating the EVs the list goes on,EVs are just another revenue stream added to thier bottom line that they would not have had without the creation of EVs in the first place.

    They are corporations,if the EVs were a threat to them then they would just invest in the EV market,they will not lose or fade away.

    The whole removing of fossil fuels out of the equation in order to make a cleaner planet is propaganda,unless somebody creates an EV completely void of fossil use in its creation and usage,all you are really doing is creating another revenue stream for the fossil fuel base.

  11. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mind field View Post
    The argument of where will I charge my car is just tired and shows you haven't done your homework. TBF, I wouldn't expect a warm reception to Tesla in a region that is still so reliant on GM, Ford, and FCA. This is a map of Tesla's supercharger network, which is continuously expanding. There are countless additional charging stations all over the country that aren't affiliated with Tesla.
    There are only 3 supercharging stations in SE MI.

  12. #37

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    We do three long weekends up north every summer. I love my weekend up north. Only problem is, it takes 4 hours to get there. I donít need any extra drama searching around for a place to plug in an electric vehicle. I would be fine with driving a hybrid, but not an electric only.

    My brother (cheapest guy I know) brought a Prius about 18 months ago. He says he likes it, I think itís okay - but with gas at 2.50, who gives a shit? I know I sure donít.

  13. #38

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    Not to even mention 60% of the Cobalt used in the batteries and electronics comes from the DRC and is mined by 40,000 children getting paid $1 per day.

    They are built with limited resources,unless they find alternative methods they will be able to convert all of California over or Paris and then be stuck,and that does not even begin to cover conversation of homes to solar.

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honky Tonk View Post
    Question: You sound like you've done extension research and thought into your EV ownership. How much more does daily charging your vehicle add to your monthly electric bill?
    Good question. I don't have exact numbers, as I don't (yet) have the means to meter the electric usage just for my car. Our use in the house is too dynamic year-over-year to make a comparison from the bill alone.

    I can say for certain that I'm paying less - a lot less - than I used to pay per mile.

    My car has a 18.4 kWh battery, of which 14 kWh is usable (there is a large amount of reserve to minimize degradation over time). I've gone as far as 70 miles on a charge (summer, gentle sub-45 MPH driving, no A/C) and as little as about 35 miles on a charge (winter, 70+ MPH, heat on). If I again assume about a 90 % efficiency in the charge (there is some power lost to battery thermal management, efficiency of the electronics), this means I'm getting between 2.2 and 4.5 miles per kWh.

    I'm on DTE's Dynamic Peak Pricing plan, which offers the lowest rates (during the week) between 11 pm and 7 am. If my math is correct (the bill is tricky to understand), I'm paying 11.14 cents per kWh. So, about $1.73 to "fill up" the car. That means I'm paying $0.02 to $0.05 per mile.

    Compare that to 25 MPG as an example. With gas at $2.64/gallon, that's a cost of $0.11 per mile. So, call it 2x to 5x cheaper to drive my Volt to work...

    If we were to assume nightly charging (fully depleted batteries), I think we could extrapolate to a theoretical increase of about $52 per month, worst-case. I paid about that much to fill up my wife's Enclave today.

    On top of that, my employer has free chargers. This is certainly a perk that I would imagine will go away in time (when EV adoption is more widespread). Or, they will go to a pay model.

    Some of the downtown garages offer free charging (not considering you already pay to park there!), some charge a nominal fee. I've found that the rate they charge is reasonable, still falling well below the equivalent cost of gasoline.

  15. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Towne Cluber View Post
    There are only 3 supercharging stations in SE MI.
    That's just Tesla's network. There are numerous other charging stations all over metro Detroit and Michigan. If someone isn't equipped or prepared to charge their EV at home every night, then perhaps an EV isn't the right choice for that person. The idea behind the supercharger network isn't to use it to charge your car daily or weekly, it's to allow for quick charging on extended road trips.

  16. #41

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    A big part of Tesla's high valuation has to do with the fact that they've built a brand that people lust after. No one gives a crap about the latest Cadillac, Chevy or Ford. But the latest Tesla? That's something that even people who don't care about cars pay attention to.

    Also as much as people like to pretend that Tesla is some tiny company, I think it's important to note that the Big 3 collectively had ONE car that outsold the Model 3 last year (Ford Fusion), but I'd be willing to bet that it would be zero cars if you looked exclusively at retail sales.

  17. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mind field View Post
    That's just Tesla's network. There are numerous other charging stations all over metro Detroit and Michigan. If someone isn't equipped or prepared to charge their EV at home every night, then perhaps an EV isn't the right choice for that person. The idea behind the supercharger network isn't to use it to charge your car daily or weekly, it's to allow for quick charging on extended road trips.

    The supercharger can allow for a quick charge while on a trip,provided you own a Tesla.

  18. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Not to even mention 60% of the Cobalt used in the batteries and electronics comes from the DRC and is mined by 40,000 children getting paid $1 per day.

    They are built with limited resources,unless they find alternative methods they will be able to convert all of California over or Paris and then be stuck,and that does not even begin to cover conversation of homes to solar.
    You're right. Electric vehicles are far from zero impact. Mining the materials needed for the batteries can be damaging to the environment. But what about the impact of the oil industry? Why did we go to war with Iraq in 2003? How many American lives were needlessly sacrificed in that war? Isn't it oddly coincidental that Iraq has massive oil reserves and those weapons of mass destruction, the lie we were spoon fed to justify invading Iraq, were never found? What about the external costs of oil extraction and fracking? Groundwater contamination, air pollution, carbon emissions altering the earth's climate and causing billions in damages from increasingly severe storms, droughts, and floods, oil spills from off-shore oil rigs, oil spills from pipelines, etc. The negatives of extracting, refining, and consuming oil and natural gas far outweigh the negatives of mining the materials needed for EV batteries.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mind field View Post
    The negatives of extracting, refining, and consuming oil and natural gas far outweigh the negatives of mining the materials needed for EV batteries.
    And the negatives of battery production should be lessened over time. Every company that makes batteries is trying to figure out how to use less of these rare minerals in their battery chemistry.

  20. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mind field View Post
    That's just Tesla's network. There are numerous other charging stations all over metro Detroit and Michigan. If someone isn't equipped or prepared to charge their EV at home every night, then perhaps an EV isn't the right choice for that person. The idea behind the supercharger network isn't to use it to charge your car daily or weekly, it's to allow for quick charging on extended road trips.
    I commented on Teslaís network because that is the map you posted. Yes, there are numerous other charging stations around Metro Detroit, but the slower ones only get 6 miles per hour.

  21. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The freedom of movement,it is irrelevant how many 1000 mile trips one actually makes,the freedom is in knowing that we can if we want.
    Well you've made it relevant by pointing out how long it would take to charge a Tesla travelling from Las Vegas to Detroit and using that as an argument against Tesla ownership. So while your 9 hour claim didn't take into account many things that one could do to reduce that time, you brought up the point. So if one were to regularly take long distance road trips and were regularly pressed for time or just an extremely impatient person, then yes that is relevant to the discussion and they probably wouldn't enjoy driving an EV.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    to call people ignorant because they have thier thoughts is not really the way to go and goes down the road of forced change,which is happening already in Europe.
    I wasn't calling any particular person ignorant. I'm ignorant of many things, basically the things I don't have a keen interest in and haven't bothered to research. I'm particularly interested in this subject and have a great deal of knowledge on it, that I'd like to share. The notion that there isn't a charging infrastructure already in place to meet the needs of the majority of the population is false and I like sharing information so people can be informed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    We are discussing something that is really take another 50 years to implement widespread,but we are subsidizing now.
    It's going to happen much sooner than that, I guess time will tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    To say the oil companies do not want us to believe EVs to become popular is hogwash,they supply the fuel to the power plants,the base for all of the components used in creating the EVs the list goes on,EVs are just another revenue stream added to thier bottom line that they would not have had without the creation of EVs in the first place.
    Can you expound upon what fuel they provide and to which plants? The base they supply for which components? Their main product used by ICE vehicle drivers is gasoline or diesel. An EV driver won't be using any gasoline or diesel. You might argue that they are providing natural gas to power plants and EVs are charging off the grid, thus indirectly consuming the natural gas. However the amount of natural gas consumed this way is far less than what is consumed from filling up with gasoline at the gas station.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    They are corporations,if the EVs were a threat to them then they would just invest in the EV market,they will not lose or fade away.
    Or they could buy out politicians who enact laws to suppress the EV industry and spread propaganda that the masses eat up so they keep raking in billions. Money talks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The whole removing of fossil fuels out of the equation in order to make a cleaner planet is propaganda,unless somebody creates an EV completely void of fossil use in its creation and usage,all you are really doing is creating another revenue stream for the fossil fuel base.
    I'd imagine Tesla uses a very small amount of fossil fuels in the production of their products. Their gigafactory in Nevada is solar powered. Yes there is the fuel used to operate the heavy machinery used to actually build the gigafactory, but overall, the amount used is minimal. There will likely be specific use cases where using fossil fuels makes sense, but the idea is to drastically reduce usage, not eliminate altogether.

  22. #47

    Default

    ^ maybe you are confused,I do not care if you or anybody else owns a Tesla or a bicycle as a mode of transportation,this is America.

    The thread was about the validity of Tesla as an ongoing concern and I made my point clear I thought,I still believe as a car it is a IPhone on wheels and irrelevant as far as company value,the value is in the technology in their automotive,space,rail and solar development.

    Pointing out the travel times due to battery charges is not being argumentative,not everybody can just jump in a car and take a trip without taking travel time in consideration it would be a deciding factor for some.

    There is a Tesla place by me and I see plates from all over the country,even more so from California which is close to 3000 miles from me which had to be equivalent to taking a stage coach cross country back then if it adds 9 hours per 1000 miles charge time.

    You used the argument of because it was Detroit and auto related you would expect nothing less then push back,I am not in Detroit so you have a sampling of opinions but everybody is not rushing to trade in thier Yukon for a Tesla,so there must be a reason outside of everybody is ignorant that does not own one.

    People give their reasons and they should be taken as valid reasons,maybe that is why Europe is going the route of forced change verses leaving it up to the consumer or market demand.

    California seems to be leading the green movement like they have for years but yet do they not still remain on the list of highest air pollution states?

    Does Tesla have some kind of manufacturing process that uses less fossil fuels in thier production then a none EV car? They seem to have a lot of plastic in them and tires and the body materials.

    They are structural component design,you cannot just replace a fender,you have to change that whole structure that it is attached to,which is triple in mass then a bolt on fender which takes more material,which to me is wasted resources.

    A fender bender structurally compromises the entire car and is considered unsafe to drive.

    They have thier good and bad aspects just like a IC car,if it is what you like go for it but I am not racing you for pink slips,I would like to keep my 14mpg fossil fuel ride.

    My boat is measured by gallons per mile,as sealed up as a Tesla is I wonder if they float like the VW bug could?
    Last edited by Richard; January-12-20 at 10:09 PM.

  23. #48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowell View Post
    Go figure. A company that delivered only 367,000 vehicles last year, operated at a loss, and paid no dividend has a market capitalization [= value of all its shares] greater than GM and Ford's combined.

    GM and Ford produce a combined 13 million vehicles, are both highly profitable and pay fat dividends [4.15% & 6.2%].

    https://markets.businessinsider.com/...0-1-1028806569
    Worst part is that Musk only owns 22% of the company. Institutions own 57%. And it's those company pension plans that invest in these institutional funds. When the bubble bursts on Tesla and tech stocks, boy, watch out.

  24. #49

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by softailrider View Post
    We do three long weekends up north every summer. I love my weekend up north. Only problem is, it takes 4 hours to get there. I don’t need any extra drama searching around for a place to plug in an electric vehicle. I would be fine with driving a hybrid, but not an electric only.

    My brother (cheapest guy I know) brought a Prius about 18 months ago. He says he likes it, I think it’s okay - but with gas at 2.50, who gives a shit? I know I sure don’t.
    Do you want to reduce air pollution or not? Do you want to leave a healthy planet for your grandchildren and great grandchildren or not? If you believe cars contribute to air pollution, then you SHOULD care. If you don't believe, then I can understand.

  25. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    ^ maybe you are confused,I do not care if you or anybody else owns a Tesla or a bicycle as a mode of transportation,this is America.

    The thread was about the validity of Tesla as an ongoing concern and I made my point clear I thought,I still believe as a car it is a IPhone on wheels and irrelevant as far as company value,the value is in the technology in their automotive,space,rail and solar development.

    Pointing out the travel times due to battery charges is not being argumentative,not everybody can just jump in a car and take a trip without taking travel time in consideration it would be a deciding factor for some.

    There is a Tesla place by me and I see plates from all over the country,even more so from California which is close to 3000 miles from me which had to be equivalent to taking a stage coach cross country back then if it adds 9 hours per 1000 miles charge time.

    You used the argument of because it was Detroit and auto related you would expect nothing less then push back,I am not in Detroit so you have a sampling of opinions but everybody is not rushing to trade in thier Yukon for a Tesla,so there must be a reason outside of everybody is ignorant that does not own one.

    People give their reasons and they should be taken as valid reasons,maybe that is why Europe is going the route of forced change verses leaving it up to the consumer or market demand.

    California seems to be leading the green movement like they have for years but yet do they not still remain on the list of highest air pollution states?

    Does Tesla have some kind of manufacturing process that uses less fossil fuels in thier production then a none EV car? They seem to have a lot of plastic in them and tires and the body materials.

    They are structural component design,you cannot just replace a fender,you have to change that whole structure that it is attached to,which is triple in mass then a bolt on fender which takes more material,which to me is wasted resources.

    A fender bender structurally compromises the entire car and is considered unsafe to drive.

    They have thier good and bad aspects just like a IC car,if it is what you like go for it but I am not racing you for pink slips,I would like to keep my 14mpg fossil fuel ride.

    My boat is measured by gallons per mile,as sealed up as a Tesla is I wonder if they float like the VW bug could?
    Sir, you are a very intelligent and critical-thinking and knowledgeable poster, but a lot of your posts are just too long!!!

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