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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor View Post
    But in the figurative sense, those 500,000 Detroiters would instantly have health insurance, the National Child Benefit, a higher minimum wage, better public transit, their employment rate would climb, their high school graduation rate would climb, their poverty and crime rates would decline.

    If you shifted 500,000 Winnipeg residents to Detroit they would be apoplectic at the state of things, and shut the State down with a massive general strike and block every highway and runway until the State of Michigan capitulated and fixed things.
    This is equally absurd, both literally and figuratively. To seriously argue that generational poverty, cultural norms, and a lifetime of learned behaviors can be instantly overcome/altered by a simple change of location is not only delusional but shows a fundamental lack of understanding on a number of levels.

  2. #52

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    CV do you actually read and comprehend what you write,let alone view it as a normal way of thinking?

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor View Post
    You most certainly did.

    First, you interjected yourself in an exchange between myself and another poster, in which you did not belong.
    I can interject myself into any public thread I want. That's why it's a public thread. If you don't like it, pm him and do it in private. You started this stupid thread to create controversy and you got it. Now, you're whining when posters jump in pointing out how ridiculous your arguments are. If can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, son.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor View Post
    You did so to defend his clearly racist assertion that black Detroiters are inferior.

    He said so by implication 'third world problems' (not a reference to white folks) and he implied that those people were beyond hope, the whole point of his move them to Winnipeg reference.

    But you were right there to defend that idea that I was repudiating as any decent, ethical person would.
    I jumped in because the argument was completely ridiculous. You're suggesting a simple location change will change cultural norms. It's a very naive way of thinking and has provoked a lot members to respond why you're wrong about that.

    And now you call Hermod a racist because of that and anyone who points out how ridiculous your argument is also a racist. Did you start this thread with the intent of calling everybody a racist for no valid reason?? You're completely delusional with your self-righteousness. There's something seriously wrong with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor View Post

    Second, you then took that further by implying that Canada's first nations people are equally inferior in a manner similar to Detroit's non-white people.

    That's what you did, that's what you said, that's what everyone read.

    You got called on it, as you rightly should.

    Has nothing to do w/conservatism or liberalism or socialism or any other ism than the racism involved.

    It speaks terribly of you.
    I never implied aboriginals or "Detroit's non-white people" are inferior. This is obviously something you personally believe in and that's why you are saying it. What I said was throwing lots of taxpayer dollars at public goods will not alone fix Detroit's issues like you suggest. There are cultural norms that need to be addressed, which you are completely oblivious too.

    Btw-funny how right after you posted this, a couple other posters jumped in pointing out how absurd your way of thinking is. Anyone defend you here yet? Obviously not. What does that tell you?? Something's wrong with your head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor View Post
    So we're clear, I'm not only not socialist; I'm happily well off and surely pay way more tax than you.

    One of us can afford to live in Toronto, and its not you.

    That doesn't make me better, I'm better because I'm not racist and ignorant; not because I have money.

    But because I have money, I'm no more keen than you to see it wasted and likely far more opposed to deficit spending than you.

    I'm calling you out not because of your politics, but because you lack both a conscience and an intellect.
    Oh, here we go again with your inferiority complex. Windsorites and Detroiters are inferior to Torontonians. You're so rich and everyone's inferior to you. Like anyone believes you're successful anyways... You are such a phoney. If your bad arguments are any indication of how much success you've achieved in your life, I wouldn't hold my breath from laughing that you're just middle aged man still living in your mother's moldy basement. Eww.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by davewindsor View Post
    I can interject myself into any public thread I want. That's why it's a public thread. If you don't like it, pm him and do it in private. You started this stupid thread to create controversy and you got it. Now, you're whining when posters jump in pointing out how ridiculous your arguments are. If can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, son.


    I jumped in because the argument was completely ridiculous. You're suggesting a simple location change will change cultural norms. It's a very naive way of thinking and has provoked a lot members to respond why you're wrong about that.

    And now you call Hermod a racist because of that and anyone who points out how ridiculous your argument is also a racist. Did you start this thread with the intent of calling everybody a racist for no valid reason?? You're completely delusional with your self-righteousness. There's something seriously wrong with you.


    I never implied aboriginals or "Detroit's non-white people" are inferior. This is obviously something you personally believe in and that's why you are saying it. What I said was throwing lots of taxpayer dollars at public goods will not alone fix Detroit's issues like you suggest. There are cultural norms that need to be addressed, which you are completely oblivious too.

    Btw-funny how right after you posted this, a couple other posters jumped in pointing out how absurd your way of thinking is. Anyone defend you here yet? Obviously not. What does that tell you?? Something's wrong with your head.



    Oh, here we go again with your inferiority complex. Windsorites and Detroiters are inferior to Torontonians. You're so rich and everyone's inferior to you. Like anyone believes you're successful anyways... You are such a phoney. If your bad arguments are any indication of how much success you've achieved in your life, I wouldn't hold my breath from laughing that you're just middle aged man still living in your mother's moldy basement. Eww.
    My mother passed on in 2014, thank you for your kind condolences.

    Notice how I left your mom out of it, even if I do deeply regret the way she raised you.

    Let's stop this here, shall we. I dislike you, I disrespect you, the feeling is mutual, we both got it.
    Last edited by Canadian Visitor; November-23-19 at 01:16 AM.

  5. #55

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    Even Dan Gilbert doesn't live in Detroit, nor sent his own kids to Detroit schools. This speaks volumes of his own confidence in Detroit. Would Mary Barra be proud of being the CEO of GM yet drive to work in a Ford Mustang every day?

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colombian Dan View Post
    Even Dan Gilbert doesn't live in Detroit, nor sent his own kids to Detroit schools. This speaks volumes of his own confidence in Detroit. Would Mary Barra be proud of being the CEO of GM yet drive to work in a Ford Mustang every day?
    You're an idiot.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor View Post
    Let's stop this here, shall we. I dislike you, I disrespect you, the feeling is mutual, we both got it.
    Thats rich,you are on a public forum inter reacting with posters that you Personally do not know but have decided that you dislike and di not respect them based solely on that they do not agree with you.

    This is not the first time you have advocated the rounding up of the population and placeing them in a confined location in order to have complete control over them.

    You know who else shares that same thought process?

    China,they built brand new city’s designed to hold millions,they are sitting vacant now but that is the intent,move everybody into a central location.

    Makes it easy to control every aspect of ones life.

    Do not agree with them? No problem they also have over 200 re-education facilities built like prisons where,like you,if somebody does not agree with their way of thinking they are picked up and sent there.

    See the similarities in your way of thinking?

    It is understandable that you feel it is your responsibility to educate the rest of the population on your beliefs and how you can design a better regulated world for them but what you are failing to understand is that in the United States and Canada and other democracies and as history has shown,people will fight for thier right to independent thought without governmental intervention.

    So why beat yourself up trying to convince everybody else that you know what is best for them?

    I do not dislike or feel disrespect towards you because I do not agree with you,I think you are probably a perfectly normal person,granted it would be while you are drunk and passed out,but you really need to grasp the concept that when you try and tell the rest of the world that you know what is best for them you really have to expect some push back.

    Or like was already posted and in simple terms,of you cannot stand the heat,stay out of the kitchen.

    But seriously,as long as you are on that whole income equality thing and spreading the wealth evenly,and you have repeatedly mentioned your high level of it and you may be right,I may not have as much money as you,but,I am kinda likeing the 2020 Jaguar F type and as I am sure that you practice what you preach so I promise I will act surprised if one shows up in the drive come Christmas morning.hint hint.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colombian Dan View Post
    Even Dan Gilbert doesn't live in Detroit, nor sent his own kids to Detroit schools. This speaks volumes of his own confidence in Detroit.
    And as I've been saying all along, until those kinds of things happen, the downtown area will remain an island served by bridges over, under and bypassing the city itself.

    It's the neighborhoods stupids!! Until they come back, there will be no lasting revival. The neighborhoods have to breathe on their own. The outlying retail areas like 7 & Gratiot and Grand River & Greenfield need to come back. Grocery stores, drug stores, gas stations, hardware stores need to replace corner party and liquor stores and storefront 'churches'.

    Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I'd almost like to see the freeways closed for a while (renovation, resurfacing anyone?), maybe a period of months to force
    'burbanite commuters to use the surface arteries so they can see and experience the real city firsthand.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    This is not the first time you have advocated the rounding up of the population and placeing them in a confined location in order to have complete control over them.
    At no point did I advocate for any such thing; and telling such lies is why I disrespect you.

    It is understandable that you feel it is your responsibility to educate the rest of the population on your beliefs and how you can design a better regulated world for them but what you are failing to understand is that in the United States and Canada and other democracies and as history has shown,people will fight for thier right to independent thought without governmental intervention.
    You do realize its mandatory for children to receive schooling? You're not allowed, as a parent, say my child doesn't really know how to read, or write or add or subtract?

    You do realize that if vaccination isn't mandatory except for rare, proven, medical conditions that it puts other people's lives at risk?

    You do realize that having any law about anything is compelling someone to behave the way you want them to?

    It turns out society is based on educating people both voluntarily and compulsorily.

    I do not, and have never condoned reeducation camps; but I mostly certainly value telling holocaust denies to shut their anti-semetic mouths and learn something.

    I also don't condone people being ignorant about STIs or the virtues of hand-washing after going to the bathroom.

    Yes, I will advocate for better public policy based on PROVEN outcomes, because that's the only moral choice.

    Finally, none of that is what this thread was about, it was about the money expended on Gilbertown by the public; and whether it was good value for money relative to other choices; and if so, what can be done to spread the positive benefits to other areas of Detroit.

    I did not write the article; its not a left or right-wing article; Its a series of useful questions asking people to verify the common assumptions or debunk them; and to find ways to address remaining problems.

    As to helping people at Christmas, I'll be donating to a Toy Drive; I'm looking at sponsoring a local family for Christmas Dinner and will be making my usual charitable donations; none of which involve buying a car for anyone or helping you out at all.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meddle View Post
    And as I've been saying all along, until those kinds of things happen, the downtown area will remain an island served by bridges over, under and bypassing the city itself.

    It's the neighborhoods stupids!! Until they come back, there will be no lasting revival. The neighborhoods have to breathe on their own. The outlying retail areas like 7 & Gratiot and Grand River & Greenfield need to come back. Grocery stores, drug stores, gas stations, hardware stores need to replace corner party and liquor stores and storefront 'churches'.

    Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I'd almost like to see the freeways closed for a while (renovation, resurfacing anyone?), maybe a period of months to force
    'burbanite commuters to use the surface arteries so they can see and experience the real city firsthand.
    It goes both ways. A lot of people in the neighborhoods need to get Downtown/Midtown, to the suburbs, and out of state to see a different way of life in order affect a culture change that will improve all of Detroit.

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor View Post
    Finally, none of that is what this thread was about, it was about the money expended on Gilbertown by the public; and whether it was good value for money relative to other choices; and if so, what can be done to spread the positive benefits to other areas of Detroit.

    I did not write the article; its not a left or right-wing article; Its a series of useful questions asking people to verify the common assumptions or debunk them; and to find ways to address remaining problems.
    .

    If you read and comprehend where I posted that the writer of the opinion piece clearly states he is a political writer based in Washington DC providing political based commentary for a Canadian newspaper and when reading his other commentary articles,yes they are far left view points.

    So tell me again how it was not a politically based opinion of tax incentives to billionaires which is a campaign talking point?

    I am not a Detroiter so for the most part I try and not comment on Detroit intimate discussions.

    Only the residents of the city of Detroit can make that decision if the ends justify the means when it comes to thier city because what works in Detroit may not work in another city.

    You or I or even some guy in Washington can say it is insane to give billionaires tax credits for investment in cities but who are we to tell a city and its residents that it is a bad way of thinking.

    It is thier city and they have to do what they feel is best for them,there are tons of threads discussing how Detroit’s residents feel about tax incentives namely the Amazon thread.

    We as outsiders can do a simple search and get a general consensus on what the city residents feel about the subject,the residents are not stupid and they know what they want and how to get there,maybe instead of banging on them all of the time give them a little support and highlight some of the positives,they have issues and with time they will get it worked out.

    If you really want to see a desperate city filled with no hope,try Gary Indiana,Detroit moved out of that stage 10 years ago.

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meddle View Post
    And as I've been saying all along, until those kinds of things happen, the downtown area will remain an island served by bridges over, under and bypassing the city itself.

    It's the neighborhoods stupids!! Until they come back, there will be no lasting revival. The neighborhoods have to breathe on their own. The outlying retail areas like 7 & Gratiot and Grand River & Greenfield need to come back. Grocery stores, drug stores, gas stations, hardware stores need to replace corner party and liquor stores and storefront 'churches'.

    Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I'd almost like to see the freeways closed for a while (renovation, resurfacing anyone?), maybe a period of months to force
    'burbanite commuters to use the surface arteries so they can see and experience the real city firsthand.
    As a lifetime resident of Detroit, I will have to agree. The concept that neighborhoods are very important, can't be more emphasized enough.

    While there are plenty of houses being torn down, all that is left is empty lots. Most see Dan Gilbert as a savior for Detroit with good intentions, while some feel that those intentions are part of what paves the road to hell for those that are still living here and stayed before he arrived.

    I will give Dan Gilbert credit for bringing a lot of improvements through his investment in the city. However, I hope that he remembers that the work to revive Detroit isn't finished, and it can't be revived by making life even more difficult for everyone that lived here through the good and the bad times.

    I would definitely would like to see a much better relationship between the city and surrounding suburbs. Hopefully before I kick the bucket, I will live long enough to see that happen.

    But if Dan Gilbert wants a true revival for Detroit, he will definitely work together with all in the metro Detroit region, even those that feel that they will be forced out as a result of his efforts.

    Some truth would be nice on Dan Gilbert's behalf to eliminate some conspiracies that tend to be part of the everday metro Detroit politics.

  13. #63

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    Uh yeah. Keeping your area and street nice start with like not throwing trash in your own yard, cutting your grass, not having dog on rusty chains barking out of feces laden yards, etc. It starts from the home, the residence, even if you are renting!

    Quote Originally Posted by Towne Cluber View Post
    It goes both ways. A lot of people in the neighborhoods need to get Downtown/Midtown, to the suburbs, and out of state to see a different way of life in order affect a culture change that will improve all of Detroit.
    Last edited by Zacha341; November-26-19 at 08:08 PM.

  14. #64

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    He’s one guy out of 700,000 in the city and what 3 million in the region?

    He is not your savior,the city has massive obstacles to overcome let alone the burbs obstacles in thier own.

    It takes Mr Gilbert and 699,000 more to get where you are going with a mix of billionaires,millionaires,and even people with no money contributing,even somebody picking up a pice of trash and placing it into a trash can is contributing,everybody plays a part.

    One person or family that buys and fixes up a derelict house in a neighborhood is contributing.

    You have to be careful when putting all of your eggs in one basket,it does not seem to pan out long term.

    Other cities already went through all of this and the biggest recognizable mistake they all made was they rebuilt the downtown buisness district hoping that would bring more people to the surrounding neighborhoods and boost those up as a trickle down effect.

    But it always stalled when it did not trickle down.

    Personally I have never heard or seen anybody at the upper city level that does not understand that,including Mr Gilbert.

    They know that one does not survive without the other,if the city is self sufficient then traffic and commence from the burbs is the added bonus.

    There are lots of programs going on where neighborhood incentives are Being used to encourage growth but the attention in the media seems more focused on the corner shooting other then spreading and highlighting what is available to the public.

    Maybe the city needs to have like a community workshop or something like that to encourage and educate people on what is actually available and that would get people interested in a larger scale.

    One also needs to take into consideration the massive scale of undertaking that you are trying to achieve,it’s like trying to rebuild a million cars and all you have to work with is a handful of lug nuts.

    I have also seen cities that went through thier scorched earth policies of renewable and if you ask anyone they regret it to this day,because everything was replaced to mimic the burbs and the city’s character was lost in the process.Once it is gone you can never replace it.

    The very reason they did it in the 50s 60s and 70s was to attract people from the suburbs back to the city,it is easy to see the results of that experiment,60 years later the exact same question still remains.

    Yes people are going to be priced out,things will change,some will welcome it,some will fight it,literally.

    As a city you will make decisions today that you will regret tomorrow.

    All it takes is time,lots of money and even more,patience.
    Last edited by Richard; November-26-19 at 04:17 PM.

  15. #65

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    no surprise that this topic and thread sucks big time.

  16. #66

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    According to the map in that article, Belle Isle has been annexed by Canada....

  17. #67

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    People still don't realize the neighborhoods are improving. Everyday people are working on homes and people are moving in them. Once vacant homes are now being occupied. People are selling and buying homes...you know what? Just six years ago downtown was a ghost town now look at it. Six years from now look at it neighborhoods included.

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Embee View Post
    According to the map in that article, Belle Isle has been annexed by Canada....
    Nope.

    The black line in the map is the City of Detroit border; the grey is the international border and still on the correct side of Belle Isle.

  19. #69

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    Let's not forget the people that stayed in Detroit, through the good times and the bad. Let's not discard them to make room for the new people coming in, and let's make sure that during the revival that we aren't forcing the Detroiters still here, out.

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by bragaboutme View Post
    People still don't realize the neighborhoods are improving. Everyday people are working on homes and people are moving in them. Once vacant homes are now being occupied. People are selling and buying homes...you know what? Just six years ago downtown was a ghost town now look at it. Six years from now look at it neighborhoods included.
    Completely agree with this. Some neighborhoods will lag, but the majority of the city looks better. You don't lose half your population and expect everything to look hunky dory.

  21. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tig3rzhark View Post
    Let's not forget the people that stayed in Detroit, through the good times and the bad. Let's not discard them to make room for the new people coming in, and let's make sure that during the revival that we aren't forcing the Detroiters still here, out.
    If they care about the city they'll stay if they're just looking for a cheap place to live(I think a lot of people "who stayed" just stayed for that) then who cares.

  22. #72

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    I have big doubts about public subsidies for development. But that doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as the ignorance of how the world really works.

    Gilbert seems to have taken the public money we have offered for development. Well, gee. If you create a public program to give money subject to certain conditions, don't be shocked when it gets taken.

    I'll be Gilbert would have done much of the same things he has done if we didn't have programs to toss money onto the fire of our ideas of how we want our government to try to manipulate results. Of course we'll never know, because we can't stop ourselves from creating more and more 'programs' (or like E. Warren - 'plans') to 'fix' something.

    And I can't understand how destroying successfully businesses helps reduce poverty. Looks to me like the success Detroit is having is mostly because of business success -- not so much because we give away tax dollars like drunken sailors on port leave.

    One final rant.... massive income or wealth inequality isn't a great thing -- but its not really that important. What's important is getting food, shelter, and safety to our most vulnerable citizens. It doesn't matter if Gilbert is rich. It matters if Joe Citizen can't get healthcare, or find a decent home in a safe neighborhood. Tearing down the rich won't help Joe -- it'll only hurt him. The singular focus on inequality is a real big mistake.

  23. #73

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^

    Good job, Wesley. You just stuck a digit up this 3-digit IQ thread.

  24. #74

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    It will take corporations or companies to revive all of Detroit and not one man. The revenue from the auto plants had built and taken care of the neighborhoods surrounding them including police and fire protection and schools. We are expecting Dan Gilbert ti do too much while billionaires such as Matty Mouroun reportedly own many vacant structures around the city which had drastically taken down th er property values in the areas that surround them. We need businesses such as an Amazon fulfillment center and others like it to be built and open in these neighborhoods to help bring back the revenue.

  25. #75

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    The whole article is based on the assumption that Detroit had a secret pot of $700M in cash (gold bars?) that were given to DG instead of being spent on schools/infrastructure. That is completely wrong, as many others have pointed out.

    There was/is no secret pot. These tax incentives are credits based on future projected tax revenue generated by each project. Most of the properties DG scooped up were vacant, generating ZERO revenue for the city (and lots of headaches). Now they are filled up with tenants and good paying jobs, generating property and city income taxes, some of which are rebated to DG and his companies in return for providing the initial capital investment. Is that so wrong?

    Same with the FCA Mack Plant on the East Side. Same with NEZ, and all the other forms of tax incentives the city is employing to attract capital, jobs, etc.

    This type of investment instrument cannot be used with schools, even private ones, since they already pay zero taxes and generate zero (direct) revenue for the city. Same with infrastructure, which requires massive upfront capital and which may take decades, if ever, to recover. Therefore the idea that these $700M tax incentives could have been invested in schools/infrastructure is nonsense. It's like saying that the money you received from your mortgage lender to purchase your home should be spent on your kid's college degree. It's nonsense, they are two different financial instruments. The money is available to you in the first place only for the home purchase, and nothing else.

    Finally, to all who say that the $700M incentives are useless, and that DG would have come anyway out of his good heart, I have a hard time believing that, but who knows. Surely though, if you have a capable financial instrument that lets you attract capital to the city (downtown, East Side, wherever) why not be proactive and use it?

    Income inequality, health care, affordable housing are all huge issues that merit further and separate discussions. People from the outside love to take a local Detroit story and spin it in all sorts of ways to fit their political narrative. Don't fall for that, especially if you have a 3-digit IQ (100 is average btw ).
    Last edited by CR75; November-29-19 at 02:13 PM.

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