MDOT planning improvements to M-39/I-96 Interchange

**Airforceguy** · April-05-23, 05:00 PM

MDOT has a survey going on regarding potential improvements to this interchange. Personally, I like options 2 and 3.
https://live.metroquestsurvey.com/?u...s=1&popup=none

**Burnsie** · April-08-23, 02:52 PM

Quite a massive interchange, four levels. Built ca. 1973.

**Gistok** · April-09-23, 03:15 AM

There are 3 elevated freeway locations where you have nice views of downtown and other parts of the city...

1] the 4th or top level of this I-96/M-39 interchange.

2] the I-94 bridge over the Dequindre Yards rail tracks just east of I-75.

3] the I-75 bridge over the Rouge River.

**expatriate** · April-09-23, 09:42 AM

They don't want my opinion that the entire spaghetti maze should be demolished and not rebuilt for a zillion dollars. Has this society become so automobile centric that we have to build expressways on expressways?

**Burnsie** · April-09-23, 11:38 AM

[QUOTE=expatriate;633137]They don't want my opinion that the entire spaghetti maze should be demolished and not rebuilt for a zillion dollars. Has this society become so automobile centric that we have to build expressways on expressways?

[/QUOTE

Society had already been thoroughly automobile centric for decades when that interchange was built 50 years ago.

**Zacha341** · April-09-23, 08:45 PM

^ Exactly. Cars in some form will remain ...

...

Not everyone can peddle, walk far, carry alot when walking, or wants public transpo. More are car pooling -- freeways help cut down time when you're making stops to pick up others to get to work, etc.

**kuuma** · April-10-23, 09:23 AM

looking at these pithy minor changes, it's just so clear there is zero big picture thinking going on at MDOT.

just home from 2 weeks in tokyo, enjoying a world-class transit infrastructure that coexists with a perfectly workable highway system [that is not 6 lanes wide everywhere]. talking with my japanese friends and it was clear that everyone has a car when they can afford to, it's just that they use them for special trips or park-and-ride commuting instead of 100% of all mobility. that's the kicker that detroiters seem to not understand: great transit does not cannibalize auto sales, it just makes our cities not suck.

**Gistok** · April-10-23, 09:32 AM

^ Maybe MDOT realizes that while Tokyo has to deal with a densly packed city of 16,121.8 residents per square mile... while Detroit has 4,878 residents per square mile... might have something to do with it...

https://detroit.curbed.com/2017/3/23/15038248/maps-detroits-population-density

**Honky Tonk** · April-10-23, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by kuuma

looking at these pithy minor changes, it's just so clear there is zero big picture thinking going on at MDOT.

just home from 2 weeks in tokyo, enjoying a world-class transit infrastructure that coexists with a perfectly workable highway system [that is not 6 lanes wide everywhere]. talking with my japanese friends and it was clear that everyone has a car when they can afford to, it's just that they use them for special trips or park-and-ride commuting instead of 100% of all mobility. that's the kicker that detroiters seem to not understand: great transit does not cannibalize auto sales, it just makes our cities not suck.

Life's too short. If you're unhappy in your current location, move somewhere that's more suited for your lifestyle. Don't expect everyone else to change their way of living to suite you.

**kuuma** · April-10-23, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Life's too short. If you're unhappy in your current location, move somewhere that's more suited for your lifestyle. Don't expect everyone else to change their way of living to suite you.

life is always a balance between working out what you can do to improve the place where you are, and determining when you're better off placing yourself somewhere more amenable to evolving values. i've seen enough to know there is a critical mass in detroit that shares a wish for better transit to exist, even if more people still prefer cars, so i haven't given up on this town yet.

change your way of living for others? literally no one is saying that. building other ways to get around is in no way forcing you to stop driving. why do people act like their very way of life is threatened over the mere option for something else? but whatever, if you think tweaking lanes on this massive highway structure while doing nothing else is the path to a better detroit, enjoy your vroom vroom concrete

**JBMcB** · April-11-23, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

There are 3 elevated freeway locations where you have nice views of downtown and other parts of the city...
1] the 4th or top level of this I-96/M-39 interchange.
2] the I-94 bridge over the Dequindre Yards rail tracks just east of I-75.
3] the I-75 bridge over the Rouge River.

One more. Eastbound M-14 near Sheldon road which is on a ridge, in the winter when the trees have no leaves, you have a commanding view all the way down I-96 to downtown. You can only see it for a few seconds, but it's impressive.

**royce** · April-11-23, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by kuuma

looking at these pithy minor changes, it's just so clear there is zero big picture thinking going on at MDOT.

just home from 2 weeks in tokyo, enjoying a world-class transit infrastructure that coexists with a perfectly workable highway system [that is not 6 lanes wide everywhere]. talking with my japanese friends and it was clear that everyone has a car when they can afford to, it's just that they use them for special trips or park-and-ride commuting instead of 100% of all mobility. that's the kicker that detroiters seem to not understand: great transit does not cannibalize auto sales, it just makes our cities not suck.

I have expressed on this forum that I think MDOT is run by incompetent individuals. I still want to know if the persons that agreed to putting an island/median in the middle of Livernois are still working there. And what was their opinions when it was agreed to get rid of it [[at least from 8 Mile to just south of 7 Mile). I digress.

Talking about the big picture, I have one. Use I-96 for a rail line to Ann Arbor. It would actually be much easier to navigate than trying to create something using the I-94 corridor. The line would travel along the left lanes [[regular then express) on to M-14 and then go underground along Main Street in Ann Arbor. When returning from Ann Arbor it would go underground briefly at the turn to I-75 and emerge along the left lane on I-75 until it got to Woodward Avenue.

Regarding the proposed changes, the retaining wall is probably the biggest waste of time and money. Improving the area where cars from the express lanes merge with the local lanes to get to M-39 would be the biggest improvement.

**JBMcB** · April-12-23, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by royce

Use I-96 for a rail line to Ann Arbor. It would actually be much easier to navigate than trying to create something using the I-94 corridor. The line would travel along the left lanes [[regular then express) on to M-14 and then go underground along Main Street in Ann Arbor. When returning from Ann Arbor it would go underground briefly at the turn to I-75 and emerge along the left lane on I-75 until it got to Woodward Avenue.

What does that buy you that the existing rail line between Detroit and Ann Arbor, that is already serviced by a 45 minute train trip every day, doesn't? Look at the opportunity cost. There is already a train that goes from the new center area to Ann Arbor. You can spend billions of dollars building another thing that does the same thing, or build something else.

**royce** · April-12-23, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

What does that buy you that the existing rail line between Detroit and Ann Arbor, that is already serviced by a 45 minute train trip every day, doesn't? Look at the opportunity cost. There is already a train that goes from the new center area to Ann Arbor. You can spend billions of dollars building another thing that does the same thing, or build something else.

Are you talking about the Amtrak train? If you are, then the issue is reliability. The horror stories that I have heard about the Wolverine Line to Chicago has put me off of train travel. Then there were no Amtrak trains going to DC last week when my wife needed to go. We ended up renting a car and drove there ourselves. A rail line that is more reliable and not controlled by the rail companies is what we as a region should be working on. Who says that it HAS to be this way?

**kuuma** · April-12-23, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by royce

Are you talking about the Amtrak train? If you are, then the issue is reliability. The horror stories that I have heard about the Wolverine Line to Chicago has put me off of train travel. Then there were no Amtrak trains going to DC last week when my wife needed to go. We ended up renting a car and drove there ourselves. A rail line that is more reliable and not controlled by the rail companies is what we as a region should be working on. Who says that it HAS to be this way?

Frequency of service is another matter with the amtrak. last i checked, there was only one round trip from new center to Royal Oak and back available for a day trip, and it would give you 3 hours in Royal Oak before you had to ride the last train back to detroit. there were a few more options going the other way, but it's not scheduled for daily commuters as it is.

the Wolverine Line has the potential to be used for commuting if there were more frequent trains, and if a few more stations were built it could absolutely be a real local rail line – imagine if there were stations where the tracks intersect Jos.Campau [giving access to Hamtramck's 28K residents], Warren & Grand River [2K residents], SW Detroit & Springwells [20k], Corktown near MCS [3.5k], North-Central Detroit near the tracks, and Ferndale [20k], on its way between Royal Oak and Dearborn? With a station upgrade in the works for New Center, it's SUCH a good time to create this. then boom, we have our first local metro line servicing 100k without laying any new track, it connects with the Qline already, and the car diehards won't even notice a thing.

**JBMcB** · April-13-23, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by royce

Are you talking about the Amtrak train? If you are, then the issue is reliability.

There are absolutely problems with Amtrak. So, buy a couple of small engines with some commuter passenger cars [[a few million each), cut a deal with Amtrak and the rail lines [[those lines are hardly in high demand currently) Maybe build a new station or two. Spin up your own express line. I guarantee the cost would be multiple orders of magnitude less than running an entirely new rail line across 30 miles of already developed landscape.

The other thing you are fighting against is that there are bus services from Detroit to Ann Arbor as well. A 1 hour trip costs $10. That's *really* hard to compete with.

**expatriate** · April-15-23, 09:39 AM

This thread seems to have morphed into a discussion about Amtrak when it began as the incredible waste of money on rebuilding this thing.

**Meddle** · April-23-23, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

There are 3 elevated freeway locations where you have nice views of downtown and other parts of the city...

1] the 4th or top level of this I-96/M-39 interchange.

Malfunction Junction.

During construction, I'd ride a bike up to the top, just short of the barricades where there was no more road, just a really long drop straight to the ground far below to watch the fireworks downtown. Couldn't see them all, mostly just the tops of the biggest patterns.

**mwilbert** · April-23-23, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

There are absolutely problems with Amtrak. So, buy a couple of small engines with some commuter passenger cars [[a few million each), cut a deal with Amtrak and the rail lines [[those lines are hardly in high demand currently) Maybe build a new station or two. Spin up your own express line. I guarantee the cost would be multiple orders of magnitude less than running an entirely new rail line across 30 miles of already developed landscape.

The cost would be much less, but my understanding is that it is impossible to do, because you can't schedule a frequent commuter service around the freight trains that already use that track.

I really wish there were a way to get train service from Downtown [[or Midtown, which is better probably depends on what you are trying to accomplish) to Metro and Ann Arbor, but as far as I can tell it's never going to happen. I flew out of St Louis today, and I caught the train two blocks from my hotel, at 5:23 in the morning [[right on time, on Sunday morning, running around every 20 minutes), and was at the airport at 6, and it cost $2.50. This isn't legacy infrastructure--the St Louis streetcar system stopped its last service in 1966--they built the whole thing from the 90's on, so it can be done. In some places.

**RO_Resident** · April-25-23, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by royce

I have expressed on this forum that I think MDOT is run by incompetent individuals. I still want to know if the persons that agreed to putting an island/median in the middle of Livernois are still working there. And what was their opinions when it was agreed to get rid of it [[at least from 8 Mile to just south of 7 Mile). I digress.

Detroit has jurisdiction over Livernois from 8 Mile to Jefferson. You'll have to direct your ire to the mayor, not the governor.

**masterblaster** · April-26-23, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Life's too short. If you're unhappy in your current location, move somewhere that's more suited for your lifestyle. Don't expect everyone else to change their way of living to suite you.

How would providing enhanced public transit options 'change your way of living'?. In kuuma's comments, he/she described how Tokyo provides robust automobile AND public transit options that contribute to a highly functioning region. It isn't an either/or scenario.

Offering reliable and convenient transit would provide additional lifestyle options and would encourage more people to considering move to the city who value transportation options and car-lite lifestyle, since much of the city was built in the 'streetcar suburban' layout. The city and inner ring suburbs were built to accommodate both autos and public transit.