"Good" Schools and "Bad" Schools

[Towne Cluber]

Jason's claim is accurate: as per the USNews report:

Fall 2018 MSU Acceptance rate: 78%
Fall 2018 WSU Acceptance rate: 72%
Fall 2018 EMU Acceptance rate: 76%

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/

By comparison, UM-Ann Arbor had a Fall 2018 acceptance rate of 23%. We can all agree that UM is more selective, but the other three are most definitely in the same tier in terms of selectivity.

I don't usually comment on this forum, but having worked for 10+ years in higher ed I wholeheartedly agree with Jason that you can actually go very far in life with a basic high school education and a useful degree from a school like WSU, EMU, or MSU. Given the relatively lower cost of these schools, and the excellent quality of the education you get access to, they will always represent better value for most kids.

What really separates kids in my experience is work ethic, motivation, and ambition, and that's not something that we can teach in class. So I would worry about teaching these values to my kids, rather than poring over metrics and arbitrary perceptions of what makes a school 'good'.

I also have experience with secondary schools and if you really believe that MSU is comparable to EMU/WSU, or that it’s easier to get into MSU than EMU/WSU, then you’re completely out of your element.

The average high school student with “a basic high school education” simply isn’t going to get into MSU.

[Jason]

For MSU, 25th/75th percentiles for the SAT were 1030 and 1240, and ACT was 23 and 27.

For UM, 25th/75th percentiles for the SAT were 1380 and 1540, and ACT was 32 and 35.

UM's low end is substantially higher than MSU's high end.

The average SAT score for the state of Michigan is about 1000, so the bottom half of MSU students are literally average Michiganders. The upper half are above average, but not remarkably so.

89% of the student body are Michiganders at MSU. For UM, 84% are Americans [[not Michigan, the entire country).


MSU is just a normal university. It might be harder to get into than some of our other universities, but it's not substantially in a different tier from the others. You can get a perfectly fine education at MSU, WSU, or EMU, and each of those schools have individual programs which rank well nationally. But the Stanfords and MITs of this world, and even the UMs, are at another level.

There's nothing wrong with any of these colleges. It's just that if you're a halfway decent student you'll get into at least one of them [[which is a good thing!), and most high schools [[even many in Detroit) are sufficient to enable you to become a halfway decent student.

[Towne Cluber]

For MSU, 25th/75th percentiles for the SAT were 1030 and 1240, and ACT was 23 and 27.

For UM, 25th/75th percentiles for the SAT were 1380 and 1540, and ACT was 32 and 35.

UM's low end is substantially higher than MSU's high end.

The average SAT score for the state of Michigan is about 1000, so the bottom half of MSU students are literally average Michiganders. The upper half are above average, but not remarkably so.

89% of the student body are Michiganders at MSU. For UM, 84% are Americans [[not Michigan, the entire country).


MSU is just a normal university. It might be harder to get into than some of our other universities, but it's not substantially in a different tier from the others. You can get a perfectly fine education at MSU, WSU, or EMU, and each of those schools have individual programs which rank well nationally. But the Stanfords and MITs of this world, and even the UMs, are at another level.

There's nothing wrong with any of these colleges. It's just that if you're a halfway decent student you'll get into at least one of them [[which is a good thing!), and most high schools [[even many in Detroit) are sufficient to enable you to become a halfway decent student.

So you’re trying to claim that 50% of MSU students had SAT scores 30 points below the school’s 75th percentile? Also, no one said anything about UofM.

[softailrider]

I always thought that historically, MSU was known to be a dummy school. I think all that changed about 20 years ago when it became more difficult to gain acceptance.

[sirrealone]

I always thought that historically, MSU was known to be a dummy school. I think all that changed about 20 years ago when it became more difficult to gain acceptance.

Pretty sure their propensity to burn couches on a regular basis didn't really help matters. #SpartyOn

[CR75]

89% of the student body are Michiganders at MSU. For UM, 84% are Americans [[not Michigan, the entire country).

I am not sure how to read this number, but you make an excellent point that UM is able to attract students from the entire country, while MSU, WSU and EMU mostly attract local students. This is a huge issue that we are facing with higher ed in Michigan, given the declining enrollment in Michigan high schools [[see for example https://statenews.com/article/2019/0...tions-decrease). So there you go, I brought the topic back to K12 ed

[Towne Cluber]

MSU is just a normal university. It might be harder to get into than some of our other universities, but it's not substantially in a different tier from the others. You can get a perfectly fine education at MSU, WSU, or EMU, and each of those schools have individual programs which rank well nationally. But the Stanfords and MITs of this world, and even the UMs, are at another level.

There's nothing wrong with any of these colleges. It's just that if you're a halfway decent student you'll get into at least one of them [[which is a good thing!), and most high schools [[even many in Detroit) are sufficient to enable you to become a halfway decent student.

UofM/Stanford/MIT are Tier 1 universities. MSU is Tier 2. WSU/EMU are Tier 4. This is for undergrad ranking only, as WSU has a well-regarded Tier 2 law school.

A “normal” university is Tier 3 or 4. That’s where “halfway decent” students go...

[bartocktoo]

UofM/Stanford/MIT are Tier 1 universities. MSU is Tier 2. WSU/EMU are Tier 4. This is for undergrad ranking only, as WSU has a well-regarded Tier 2 law school.

A “normal” university is Tier 3 or 4. That’s where “halfway decent” students go...

Regarding the law school at WSU, it's kind of like the MSU/UM point I think Jason made. While U of M is considered a world-class law school, barely any of it's graduates stay in Michigan, whereas WSU students almost all stay in Michigan to practice.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Wealthy, education-status obsessed families will go to excessive lengths to get their kid into a high-status university. Witness the recent Rick Singer admissions scandal where families were making six-figure "donations" and fabricating athletic profiles for their children. But what exactly is the objection with enrolling one's high achieving child in a low achievement school district? Especially if the family lives in the district. Should there only be an objection if a wealthy family does this? If the child, wealthy or not, achieves at a level adequate for the elite university, why shouldn't he/she get the benefit of coming from an under-resourced school and an under privileged community? Kind of seems like a good idea. There's lots of kids from Northville with 3.8 GPA and a 30 ACT getting rejected from Yale, Northwestern and U of M. It's the exact opposite for Detroit kids from DPCSD, even the rare white kids.

Just ask Felicity Huffman, and Lori Loughlin. They thought they had the answer.

[Towne Cluber]

Regarding the law school at WSU, it's kind of like the MSU/UM point I think Jason made. While U of M is considered a world-class law school, barely any of it's graduates stay in Michigan, whereas WSU students almost all stay in Michigan to practice.

My point is not at all similar to Jason’s. Likewise, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make either regarding the original topic.

[bartocktoo]

My point is not at all similar to Jason’s. Likewise, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make either regarding the original topic.

Jason's point, I thought, and I apologize to Jason if I'm wrong, is that everything with these schools can kind of be seen as subjective.

You mentioned Wayne State, a "Tier 4" being a "Tier 2" law school.

So maybe Wayne State's law school wasn't the original topic, but I mentioned it because you went off topic, eh? Perhaps your reading comprehension isn't so good.

[Towne Cluber]

Jason's point, I thought, and I apologize to Jason if I'm wrong, is that everything with these schools can kind of be seen as subjective.

You mentioned Wayne State, a "Tier 4" being a "Tier 2" law school.

So maybe Wayne State's law school wasn't the original topic, but I mentioned it because you went off topic, eh? Perhaps your reading comprehension isn't so good.

The incorrect information about colleges is literally within the original post.

Also, the fact that this discussion is about undergraduate school was clearly stated but you’re pretending otherwise for some reason.

You have some strange motivations behind your posts on these topics. You seem insecure about your own academic credentials. Not my fault. That’s all on you.

[bartocktoo]

UofM/Stanford/MIT are Tier 1 universities. MSU is Tier 2. WSU/EMU are Tier 4. This is for undergrad ranking only, as WSU has a well-regarded Tier 2 law school.

A “normal” university is Tier 3 or 4. That’s where “halfway decent” students go...

You didn't mention WSU law school?

[bartocktoo]

I also have experience with secondary schools and if you really believe that MSU is comparable to EMU/WSU, or that it’s easier to get into MSU than EMU/WSU, then you’re completely out of your element.

The average high school student with “a basic high school education” simply isn’t going to get into MSU.

Who is insecure about their academic credentials?

[Towne Cluber]

“In Michigan, eight colleges and universities are considered selective: Calvin, Hillsdale, Hope and Kalamazoo colleges; Kettering, Michigan State, Michigan Tech universities and UM-Ann Arbor.”

“MSU draws 70% of its student body from Michigan”

https://www.detroitjournalism.org/20...teractive-map/

[bartocktoo]

“In Michigan, eight colleges and universities are considered selective: Calvin, Hillsdale, Hope and Kalamazoo colleges; Kettering, Michigan State, Michigan Tech universities and UM-Ann Arbor.”

“MSU draws 70% of its student body from Michigan”

https://www.detroitjournalism.org/20...teractive-map/

This sure looks like academic credential insecurity to me...

[Towne Cluber]

This sure looks like academic credential insecurity to me...

You have some serious character issues for wanting to deliberately spread false information.

[Former_Detroiter]

I always thought that historically, MSU was known to be a dummy school. I think all that changed about 20 years ago when it became more difficult to gain acceptance.

Back in the 70's when I was an undergrad at U-M there was a saying that people end up going to MSU when they couldn't get into U-M.

[bartocktoo]

You have some serious character issues for wanting to deliberately spread false information.

Hmmm...

[mwilbert]

“In Michigan, eight colleges and universities are considered selective: Calvin, Hillsdale, Hope and Kalamazoo colleges; Kettering, Michigan State, Michigan Tech universities and UM-Ann Arbor.”

“MSU draws 70% of its student body from Michigan”

https://www.detroitjournalism.org/20...teractive-map/

I'm not going to get into the insane nitpickyness of what school is in what tier, or what's selective and what isn't.

Here's some data:

2019 25/75 percentile total scores SAT

UM 1330 1510
MSU 1110 1310
WSU 1010 1210

The order is as you would expect, but MSU has a lot of overlap with WSU, but not with UM. You can make of that what you like, but what I make of it is that the average student at MSU is likely a lot more similar to the average student at WSU than to the average student at UM.

[Richard]

So the recommendation to somebody moving to Detroit is to send thier 6 yo to WSU,UM or MSU and just skip the bad elementary schools?

[DeLemur]

So the recommendation to somebody moving to Detroit is to send thier 6 yo to WSU,UM or MSU and just skip the bad elementary schools?

Ha exactly Richard. Or that a school is only as good as the test scores of high school students not yet impacted by said school.

[Towne Cluber]

I'm not going to get into the insane nitpickyness of what school is in what tier, or what's selective and what isn't.

Here's some data:

2019 25/75 percentile total scores SAT

UM 1330 1510
MSU 1110 1310
WSU 1010 1210

The order is as you would expect, but MSU has a lot of overlap with WSU, but not with UM. You can make of that what you like, but what I make of it is that the average student at MSU is likely a lot more similar to the average student at WSU than to the average student at UM.

Based on your numbers, it would seem to be more accurate to say that the average student at MSU would be similar to the high end student at WSU. Or the high end student at MSU is similar to the lower end student at UofM.

[Scottathew]

I was warned by some of my neighbors about the elementary school that my kids go to in the Rochester Community Schools district. When I probed them for more information they said that the elementary school had too many "apartment kids" and too many "ESL kids". In other words, there is a large transient population of people of Indian decent [[from or descending from people from the country India). I was told to consider sending my kids to a different elementary school.

Fast-forward six years later, my kids are now in 2nd and 4th grade at that elementary school. We love the school. It provides a great education. My kids have a diverse set of friends. The fear that was being communicated to me from people in the neighborhood was unjustified, pure xenophobia.

There are a lot of good schools and school districts that probably suffer the same reputation issues. Also, there realistically are some schools that are in desperate needs of changes. People need to take a data-driven approach and evaluate these schools on outcomes.

[Hans64]

“In Michigan, eight colleges and universities are considered selective: Calvin, Hillsdale, Hope and Kalamazoo colleges; Kettering, Michigan State, Michigan Tech universities and UM-Ann Arbor.”

https://www.detroitjournalism.org/20...teractive-map/

Albion College has an acceptance rate that exceeds that of Calvin and Hope colleges. Albion and Kalamazoo are considered the top two private colleges in the state.