Detroit's Population in 2018

[Bigdd]

People who work in the city but dont live there should be taxed, people who do work and live in the city shouldn't. I dont understand why it's the other way around.

It isn't quite.

People who work AND live here pay 2.4%
People who work here but live elsewhere pay 1.2%

So the difference is 1.2%,... which I doubt plays much of a factor in where someone decides to live.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say crime, home/auto insurance rates and schools are each on their own some 10x more of a factor than City income tax rates.

Let's say you make 50k a year. 1.2% of that is only $600 A YEAR.

But the extra homeowners insurance might be $800 more a year, and the extra cost of insuring 2 cars might be $2,500 a year, PER CAR [[than if you lived in Oakland County or Ann Arbor),... That's $5,800 more per year.

And if you have to have to send your 2 children to private school,... that's an extra $15,000 a year.

That extra $600 a year in income tax quickly becomes a non factor.

[Metro25]

Regardless people not living in the city should be paying more. not the other way around.

[Bradley]

I remember when the debate was whether or not Detroit had a million and San Diego would be a "bigger" city. Anything new is better than nothing at all IMO

[LongGone06]

Regardless people not living in the city should be paying more. not the other way around.

Why? The income tax supports city services, which inure primarily to the benefit of city residents.

[iheartthed]

It isn't quite.

People who work AND live here pay 2.4%
People who work here but live elsewhere pay 1.2%

So the difference is 1.2%,... which I doubt plays much of a factor in where someone decides to live.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say crime, home/auto insurance rates and schools are each on their own some 10x more of a factor than City income tax rates.

Let's say you make 50k a year. 1.2% of that is only $600 A YEAR.

But the extra homeowners insurance might be $800 more a year, and the extra cost of insuring 2 cars might be $2,500 a year, PER CAR [[than if you lived in Oakland County or Ann Arbor),... That's $5,800 more per year.

And if you have to have to send your 2 children to private school,... that's an extra $15,000 a year.

That extra $600 a year in income tax quickly becomes a non factor.

But if you don't need a car because the city provided sufficient alternative transit options... That would be a game changer.

[masterblaster]

But if you don't need a car because the city provided sufficient alternative transit options... That would be a game changer.

Great point. This would also be in tandem with an effort to concentrate more of the jobs in the city and the inner ring suburbs.

Anyway, I think the city's population is closer to 500,000. Black flight to the suburbs and Atlanta/Phoenix has not subsided.

[Bigdd]

But if you don't need a car because the city provided sufficient alternative transit options... That would be a game changer.

The math never works out on that though [[except in Manhattan).

Let’s say you buy a well used car and put PLPD on it. Pay $3k for the car and it lasts you 4 years before you junk it. That gives us $750 per year for car,…. plus $1200 for the PLPD insurance. You drive it 20 min each way to work,.. plus some on the weekends, or about 210 hours a year. Fuel at $3 a gal, or $9 in gas an hour. Total cost of using a car ends up at something like $18 an hour.

So it costs you $6 to drive the 20 min each way to work.

OR,… you could spend an hour waiting in the cold for a bus, riding the bus.. then taking a transfer etc to get there. And of course the ride costs you $2.50 [[less if you buy a monthly pass). So you save $3.50 - $4.00 for that miserable extra 40 min.

So in conclusion,…. if you make more than $4.75 an hour,… YOU SIMPLY CANNOT AFFORD to take public transportation. People that don’t do that math are destined to be poor all their life.


It works in Manhattan for 3-4 reasons
1. The population density is 5.5 x what it is in Detroit. [[26,400 per sq mile v.s. 4,880)
2. Traffic is so bad and parking so scarce, that it’s actually FASTER taking the subway. [[It’s slower in every other city). People aren’t doing it to SAVE money,.. they’re doing it to MAKE MORE.
3. That pop density means there is a subway coming every 5 or so minutes. In a place with less than 1/5the population like Detroit,.. there would be far fewer trains,.. and hence, longer waits.

[masterblaster]

The math never works out on that though [[except in Manhattan).

Let’s say you buy a well used car and put PLPD on it. Pay $3k for the car and it lasts you 4 years before you junk it. That gives us $750 per year for car,…. plus $1200 for the PLPD insurance. You drive it 20 min each way to work,.. plus some on the weekends, or about 210 hours a year. Fuel at $3 a gal, or $9 in gas an hour. Total cost of using a car ends up at something like $18 an hour.

So it costs you $6 to drive the 20 min each way to work.

OR,… you could spend an hour waiting in the cold for a bus, riding the bus.. then taking a transfer etc to get there. And of course the ride costs you $2.50 [[less if you buy a monthly pass). So you save $3.50 - $4.00 for that miserable extra 40 min.

So in conclusion,…. if you make more than $4.75 an hour,… YOU SIMPLY CANNOT AFFORD to take public transportation. People that don’t do that math are destined to be poor all their life.


It works in Manhattan for 3-4 reasons
1. The population density is 5.5 x what it is in Detroit. [[26,400 per sq mile v.s. 4,880)
2. Traffic is so bad and parking so scarce, that it’s actually FASTER taking the subway. [[It’s slower in every other city). People aren’t doing it to SAVE money,.. they’re doing it to MAKE MORE.
3. That pop density means there is a subway coming every 5 or so minutes. In a place with less than 1/5the population like Detroit,.. there would be far fewer trains,.. and hence, longer waits.

1. Many cities of low densities have robust public transit and rapid transit systems. Cities like Salt Lake City, Denver, Charlotte, Dallas, Atlanta, Portland, Cleveland, Minneapolis/St. Paul, St. Louis, San Jose, Phoenix, San Diego and others all have rail rapid transit. None of these are nowhere near as compact as Manhattan.

2. A $3,000 car is going to break down and have some costly repairs. You are also going to need to do tune-ups and oil changes. Insurance in the city is going to cast at least $150 per month for no-fault, not $100. I am paying $4,000 per year for 2 vehicles that are a combined 32 years old.

[[P.S. a 20-minute commute? Most people have longer commutes than that)

3. A more robust transit system's main goal would be to connect the city with the suburbs, so that 4,880 density figure should also include the density of the suburban communities that would be getting better connected to the city.

[Bradley]

1. Many cities of low densities have robust public transit and rapid transit systems. Cities like Salt Lake City, Denver, Charlotte, Dallas, Atlanta, Portland, Cleveland, Minneapolis/St. Paul, St. Louis, San Jose, Phoenix, San Diego and others all have rail rapid transit. None of these are nowhere near as compact as Manhattan.

2. A $3,000 car is going to break down and have some costly repairs. You are also going to need to do tune-ups and oil changes. Insurance in the city is going to cast at least $150 per month for no-fault, not $100. I am paying $4,000 per year for 2 vehicles that are a combined 32 years old.

[[P.S. a 20-minute commute? Most people have longer commutes than that)

3. A more robust transit system's main goal would be to connect the city with the suburbs, so that 4,880 density figure should also include the density of the suburban communities that would be getting better connected to the city.

Nonsense. Why? I've spent over 4 months seeing what's going on

[Metro25]

Why? The income tax supports city services, which inure primarily to the benefit of city residents.

Because they already pay for those services via property taxes while workers who don't like in the city dont yet still use city infrastructure and services.

[LongGone06]

Because they already pay for those services via property taxes while workers who don't like in the city dont yet still use city infrastructure and services.

City income tax exists for the very reason that property taxes are insufficient to support the services residents enjoy, or in some cases, lack. Along with the cost of parking, it is [[or at least it used to be) a competitive disadvantage to landlords and businesses located in the city. Employees who commute daily to business centers in Southfield, Troy, and Farmington Hills use those cities' infrastructure and services, but are not burdened with an additional tax. I paid city income tax for many years while working downtown, though I did not live in the city. The income tax was always a point of contention with potential new hires.

[iheartthed]

The math never works out on that though [[except in Manhattan).

Let’s say you buy a well used car and put PLPD on it. Pay $3k for the car and it lasts you 4 years before you junk it. That gives us $750 per year for car,…. plus $1200 for the PLPD insurance. You drive it 20 min each way to work,.. plus some on the weekends, or about 210 hours a year. Fuel at $3 a gal, or $9 in gas an hour. Total cost of using a car ends up at something like $18 an hour.

So it costs you $6 to drive the 20 min each way to work.

OR,… you could spend an hour waiting in the cold for a bus, riding the bus.. then taking a transfer etc to get there. And of course the ride costs you $2.50 [[less if you buy a monthly pass). So you save $3.50 - $4.00 for that miserable extra 40 min.

So in conclusion,…. if you make more than $4.75 an hour,… YOU SIMPLY CANNOT AFFORD to take public transportation. People that don’t do that math are destined to be poor all their life.


It works in Manhattan for 3-4 reasons
1. The population density is 5.5 x what it is in Detroit. [[26,400 per sq mile v.s. 4,880)
2. Traffic is so bad and parking so scarce, that it’s actually FASTER taking the subway. [[It’s slower in every other city). People aren’t doing it to SAVE money,.. they’re doing it to MAKE MORE.
3. That pop density means there is a subway coming every 5 or so minutes. In a place with less than 1/5the population like Detroit,.. there would be far fewer trains,.. and hence, longer waits.

1 - People live car free in places other than Manhattan.
2 - If Detroit is going to ever rebound as a city, it will have to become a dense city again. So, you just spelled out exactly what Detroit needs to do in order to save itself.