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  1. #26

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    I'm sorry, anyone who knowingly owns, and doesn't take care to contain, dogs that are vicious enough to tear someone apart deserves to be locked up for years and have all of their possessions confiscated, sold and the proceeds returned to the grieving family.

  2. #27

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    Totally agree jcole.

    And I love dogs.

    But dogs that were bred to severely injure and kill are the tragic product of vile humans, and as much as they are themselves victims, we need reasonable measures to take them off the market like any other product that is unsafe.

    As for those vile humans, those who take this unsafe product and amplify their dangers deserve to be held accountable for all the damage (to us, and especially to the dogs) that results from that.

    I have known, and liked, many a pit bull. Unintentionally. Unfortunately, the breed is common many a place where I've lived. But never have I felt safe around them. Even the ones I've known and liked. And I have had many a scary experience with ones I did not know.

    It is not in our interest, nor the dogs', for more highly dangerous dogs to be bred.

    Deep condolences to the Hernandez family.
    Last edited by bust; August-24-19 at 12:08 PM.

  3. #28

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    My niece also finds homes for dogs (she foster cares for some until the dog shelter can find homes for them). When she got a pit bull, she decided to keep him, because he was so gentle (she has an 8 and 10 year old daughter). When I first met that dog he barked at me once... then sniffed my hand and then let me scratch his stomach. Jax (his name) was nice in letting other dogs temporarily share "his" home with them, until one day he held onto one of the dogs, a Jack Russell Terrier (held his paw ove him, see photo)... and said "mom we're keeping this one".

    My niece's cousin would no longer come by for a visit because of fear for the breed... but Jax is such an angel.

    The problem is NOT the breed... but how they've been trained/raised.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  4. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gistok View Post
    My niece also finds homes for dogs (she foster cares for some until the dog shelter can find homes for them). When she got a pit bull, she decided to keep him, because he was so gentle (she has an 8 and 10 year old daughter). When I first met that dog he barked at me once... then sniffed my hand and then let me scratch his stomach. Jax (his name) was nice in letting other dogs temporarily share "his" home with them, until one day he held onto one of the dogs, a Jack Russell Terrier (held his paw ove him, see photo)... and said "mom we're keeping this one".

    My niece's cousin would no longer come by for a visit because of fear for the breed... but Jax is such an angel.

    The problem is NOT the breed... but how they've been trained/raised.
    There are some gentel Pitbulls. Hell; The Little Rascal's dog Pete was a Pittbull. However, once a Pit kills someone or something it need to be put down and the owner charged.

  5. #30

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    I think that the murder charge in fitting for this case. It was reported that the owner had been giving warnings about installing a high fence and to contain his dogs but he didn't. So murder is a good charge for him. I will say that manslaugher should be charged only if the owner had made precautions in keeping his dogs from harming others but they had somehow gotten out of the yard and mauled someone. Not in this case.

  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gistok View Post
    The problem is NOT the breed... but how they've been trained/raised.
    IMO it's both. There are a lot of dogs that are not properly trained and abused beyond belief, yet we rarely ever see reports of mistreated Beagles, Greyhounds or Sheepdogs mauling innocent people to death.

    Pitbulls were bred to fight. Just as one might be able to work hard and train a Beagle to not chase rabbits, the desire to chase rabbits is still in their blood. A tender, friendly Pitbull that doesn't show aggression towards other animals (And sometimes people) is just suppressing what comes naturally. No matter what training one receives, the capability and desire is still there somewhere. And there's always the possibility that their true nature will show through.
    Last edited by Johnnny5; August-24-19 at 07:56 PM.

  7. #32

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    That's not necessarily true. Beagles and Greyhounds just aren't best fit for fighting due to their genetics and how they were bred. Pitbulls are, in general, short, strong and have the nastiest bite which are all good things to have to get up under another dog and bite it's neck. IMO the pitbull just got really unlucky genetics. Poor things.

  8. #33

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    ^ Sorry, anecdotal evidence or "the news reports it, so it must always be true"... doesn't cut it....

    Read from the animal behavior experts....

    https://pets.webmd.com/dogs/features/pit-bulls-safety#1

  9. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seven&wyo View Post
    That's not necessarily true. Beagles and Greyhounds just aren't best fit for fighting due to their genetics and how they were bred. Pitbulls are, in general, short, strong and have the nastiest bite which are all good things to have to get up under another dog and bite it's neck. IMO the pitbull just got really unlucky genetics. Poor things.


    They didn't really get "unlucky" with their genetics, they were engineered by humans for that purpose, and they're darn good at it.


    This is not directed at you, but I'm always slightly dumbfounded when people relate to breeds of dogs as they do with race or ethnicity in humans. For centuries dogs have been selectively bred, and in a sense engineered and purpose built by humans. Pitt Bulls and a handful of similar dogs stand alone as being purposely bred to fight. Originally to fight other animals, and then for dog fighting. We might all the same, but dogs are not.

  10. #35

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    ^^^^^^^
    Like

  11. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnny5 View Post

    They didn't really get "unlucky" with their genetics, they were engineered by humans for that purpose, and they're darn good at it.


    This is not directed at you, but I'm always slightly dumbfounded when people relate to breeds of dogs as they do with race or ethnicity in humans. For centuries dogs have been selectively bred, and in a sense engineered and purpose built by humans. Pitt Bulls and a handful of similar dogs stand alone as being purposely bred to fight. Originally to fight other animals, and then for dog fighting. We might all the same, but dogs are not.
    Baiting was made illegal by the British parliament in 1835. However, this legislation did little to satiate the public’s desire to watch the spectacle of dogs in fighting sports. As a result, their attention turned to a variety of other pursuits such as ratting – a practice in which a dog was thrown in a pit with a varying number of rats. The dogs raced against the clock and each other to determine which one could kill the most rats in the shortest period of time. The “pit” in pit bulls comes from the fact that ratting occurred in a pit that kept the rats from escaping.

    https://bullykingmagazineblog.com/20...merican-bully/

    Most should read that first because the term pit bull is a little more involved then attaching a label.

  12. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnny5 View Post

    They didn't really get "unlucky" with their genetics, they were engineered by humans for that purpose, and they're darn good at it.


    This is not directed at you, but I'm always slightly dumbfounded when people relate to breeds of dogs as they do with race or ethnicity in humans. For centuries dogs have been selectively bred, and in a sense engineered and purpose built by humans. Pitt Bulls and a handful of similar dogs stand alone as being purposely bred to fight. Originally to fight other animals, and then for dog fighting. We might all the same, but dogs are not.
    You can breed a dog to be strong, compact and have a strong bite, but you can't breed a line of dogs that are berserk fighters because that's counter-evolutionary to a pack animal. This article describes it well.

    The breed doesn't program the dog. For example, when my herding dog was introduced to sheep, she sat in the shade and gave me the doggie finger.

    The issues with pit bulls are the same with any dog. Keep your dog contained to your yard. Don't let kids play with dogs unsupervised. Train your dog, and don't provoke aggression. And if you don't train and contain your dog, and it hurts someone, you're going to jail.

  13. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by archfan View Post

    The breed doesn't program the dog. For example, when my herding dog was introduced to sheep, she sat in the shade and gave me the doggie finger.

    The issues with pit bulls are the same with any dog. Keep your dog contained to your yard. Don't let kids play with dogs unsupervised. Train your dog, and don't provoke aggression.
    Both physical and behavioral aspects of dogs are "programmed" and determined by breed. That's really the whole point of generations of selective breeding. It's why most Beagles will follow and howl after game until they can no longer run, and they will do so with absolutely zero training. Most German Shepherds will sit patiently at their owner's front doorstep alert and on guard, again purely out of ingrained instinct. Try getting the two breeds to do the opposite tasks? It's not going to happen because they don't share the same ingrained behavioral traits. Your herding dog might not have shown interest as a pup, but that's atypical of the breed.

  14. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gistok View Post
    My niece also finds homes for dogs (she foster cares for some until the dog shelter can find homes for them). When she got a pit bull, she decided to keep him, because he was so gentle (she has an 8 and 10 year old daughter). When I first met that dog he barked at me once... then sniffed my hand and then let me scratch his stomach. Jax (his name) was nice in letting other dogs temporarily share "his" home with them, until one day he held onto one of the dogs, a Jack Russell Terrier (held his paw ove him, see photo)... and said "mom we're keeping this one".

    My niece's cousin would no longer come by for a visit because of fear for the breed... but Jax is such an angel.

    The problem is NOT the breed... but how they've been trained/raised.
    Absolutely. It's the humans conditioning the animals to be violent that is the problem. I remember back in the 90s or early 2000s there was a hysteria going around Detroit about Pitbulls and how they were supposedly pre-disposed to aggressive behavior because of their psychology. Nevermind that many dogs in Detroit of any breed were vicious towards humans. But then I moved to NYC, which also has a lot of Pitbulls, but many of the ones I come into contact with in NYC are socialized to be friendly towards humans and other dogs.

  15. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnny5 View Post
    Both physical and behavioral aspects of dogs are "programmed" and determined by breed. That's really the whole point of generations of selective breeding. It's why most Beagles will follow and howl after game until they can no longer run, and they will do so with absolutely zero training. Most German Shepherds will sit patiently at their owner's front doorstep alert and on guard, again purely out of ingrained instinct. Try getting the two breeds to do the opposite tasks? It's not going to happen because they don't share the same ingrained behavioral traits. Your herding dog might not have shown interest as a pup, but that's atypical of the breed.
    I have a friend that trains and competes in shows with border collies and herding sheep,they do not pop out ready to go,they have to be trained.

    Sheep farmers pair pups up with adults in order to train them,I wish I had a third of thier energy.

    Her husband is a horse trainer that also trains cattle dogs,they may have it in thier DNA where they are suitable for the task but they are not ready to go out of the box.

    Same with certain breeds of “pit bulls” that are conditioned to fight,many hours are spent to bring them into the fighting aspect.

    But it is like anything else,personal responsibility and holding one accountable for thier actions,if you train a dog to fight it will,knowing that it is on the owner to have control over thier dog,if they fail to do that they are or should be held accountable.

  16. #41

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    I don’t have a dog anymore and probably will not get another one, but having spent a lot of time at the dog parks in the area when somebody shows up with a pit bull or something that
    looks like a pit bull they are generally not well received, people move away. Too many stories about those dogs just snapping out of nowhere. Not everybody is stupid, nobody wants to get hurt or have their dog get hurt.

  17. #42

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    ^ that’s kinda how we view everything as a whole.

    See a biker acting irresponsibly and then judge all bikers as the same,as an example,we have a tendency to take a few bad apples and collectively apply it to the entire batch when it is not the case.

    But you are spot on with the whole perception aspect,My pit did not have to bite anybody,her mere presence was the deterrent.

    The police were chasing somebody through the neighborhood,he jumped my 6’ fence and saw my pit,she barked but did not chase him,he jumped back over the fence,I guess he preferred the waiting arms of the law.

    Oddly enough even the feral cats would move thier newborn kittens close to her as a protective measure to ward off the chicken hawks and other predators.

    She was more of a well fed cat mattress then anything else.

    I got her when I was walking to the 7-11 and somebody drove by and tossed her out the window into a ditch as a pup.

    Find a stray pit and take it to the humane society and they become priority for the cremation chamber.

    She was aggressively highly protective of me as was my German shepherd was and my little Shih Tzu which took 3 years before she would allow my wife to even touch me in her presence.

    I have a friend that has a little toy something or another dog,you cannot even talk to him without it going ballistic,I think they were trained to go down gopher holes or something,it is a little vicious dog.
    Last edited by Richard; August-25-19 at 02:33 PM.

  18. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    ...
    She was more of a well fed cat mattress then anything else.
    ...
    She was aggressively highly protective of me as was my German shepherd was and my little Shih Tzu which took 3 years before she would allow my wife to even touch me in her presence.

    I have a friend that has a little toy something or another dog,you cannot even talk to him without it going ballistic,I think they were trained to go down gopher holes or something,it is a little vicious dog.
    Lol at the cat mattress. And if a dog twice as big acted like some of those little dogs, somebody would shoot it.

    Both your dogs being protective and the little dogs being aggressive are amplified by the same thing - the owner's behavior. Dogs are highly observant of you, and try to do things that you reward. If you are happy the dog acts protective, maybe praise it, it will do it next time, and continue doing it.

    For the little dogs, they're so small everyone laughs when they act aggressive to people - that's a reward. They'll also continue doing it. Or, it will act aggressive to another dog, because they're small and they don't want to be stepped on. But if no one teaches it another behavior, it gets ever more aggressive.

    And that takes us back to pit bulls. If everyone's on edge around a dog, it's more likely to be on edge, too, which can lead to aggression. Or, if an owner subtly rewards aggression because, well, that's why they got a pit bull, the dog becomes aggressive.
    Last edited by archfan; August-26-19 at 02:27 AM.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    Absolutely. It's the humans conditioning the animals to be violent that is the problem. I remember back in the 90s or early 2000s there was a hysteria going around Detroit about Pitbulls and how they were supposedly pre-disposed to aggressive behavior because of their psychology. Nevermind that many dogs in Detroit of any breed were vicious towards humans. But then I moved to NYC, which also has a lot of Pitbulls, but many of the ones I come into contact with in NYC are socialized to be friendly towards humans and other dogs.
    I remember hearing and seeing on TV more about German Shepherds, Rottweilers and Dobermans growing up. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised to find that I didn't have to spend a large amount of my adult life running from Dobermans.

  20. #45

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    Years ago I recall a thread on here or perhaps a pictorial on tour Detroit called the dogs of Detroit. Pictures of random stray dogs and gangs of dogs wandering around the city. I think…..

  21. #46

  22. #47

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    There are some cuties in the DDR link posted there.

    I would not mind having emerald

    https://detroitdogrescue.com/available-dogs/

  23. #48

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    I appreciate you looking that up. I don't think that is what I recall. I was a pictorial and it was way back.

  24. #49

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    https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mess...tml?1179673790
    Way back to 2007 wow. There was a flickr link on there that no longer works.

  25. #50

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    I like Gistok's niece's pups, very cute. The adventure on my
    street today was the dog down the street, a pit mix who so far
    has not bitten anyone, was running loose as is her occasional
    wont, so I knew which house to go to. This is a very fast dog.
    Retrieved the indoor/outdoor cats except for one, but did not
    worry, she is an amazingly fast cat, and she consented to come
    back inside after streaking to the far back yard somewhere
    where she wouldn't be able to be found once she saw that this
    dog was nearby today. A bit later the letter carrier drove up
    and down the block. Then it appeared that an owner was about
    to take the dog back. However the dog was loose again about
    two hours later. I packed a few "Greenies" and a unit of pepper
    spray and she followed me down to her house. The owners were
    in and gratefully accepted the treats and fed a couple to their very
    well behaved little dogs that were inside. They were working on
    enticing "Rocket" with the treats when I went home...but, a
    catchpole is on my wish list now as well as a net trap. "Rocket"
    needs a collar and tag maybe as well, she wasn't wearing one.

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