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  1. #51

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    Not necessarily some eager patent US attorney will argue!!

    What message is sent when the undocumented person is allowed set-asides here, there? What message is conveyed to our citizens re. our laws?

    I guess so long as the Drivers Test is still required there's some measure of standard (rule of law) remaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    no no no!!! They have to trained to follow U.S. traffic laws and learn our languages before they can receive a U.S. driver's license.
    Last edited by Zacha341; August-05-19 at 08:20 AM.

  2. #52

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    Go get stuffed, you xenophobic, privileged Michigander...... Shame on you to demand such! Trump approves and that's all that matters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Honky Tonk View Post
    What total B/S, they need to become legal US citizens before receiving any US money and privileges.
    Last edited by Zacha341; August-06-19 at 07:14 AM.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by CassTechGrad View Post
    Michigan Just Made It A Lot Easier To Vote
    11/06/2018 11:27 pm ET

    "Michigan voters on Tuesday approved a constitutional amendment intended to make it drastically easier to cast a ballot in the state. Voters in the state will now be automatically registered to vote when they interact with the state’s motor vehicle agency unless they opt out."Attachment 38695

    There you go folks, the Democratic Party just opened the floodgates and picked up a boatload of votes with your tax dollars.

  4. #54

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    ^^^ Yep. The Two-fer factor I mentioned earlier now a Three-fer. Politics rule!
    Last edited by Zacha341; August-05-19 at 08:37 AM.

  5. #55

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    You've got jokes...... we need 'em considering the incoherence of the times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Honky Tonk View Post
    In my case, when I went to apply for my drivers license, in some file, my name was misspelled, (I think they had it Honki Tonk) and I had to prove the legitimate spelling of my name...

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honky Tonk View Post
    What total B/S, they need to become legal US citizens before receiving any US money and privileges.
    Apparentaly not anymore,you guys just became a sanctuary state,just remember,somebody has to pay for it all,I wonder who that will be.

    Cool bus ride experience,thanks for sharing.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Cool bus ride experience,thanks for sharing.
    True story. What amazed me was in the middle of BF OH, these people had this little money making empire going. Made me think about things.

  8. #58

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    Some states, like the one I live in, have a two tiered driver's license system. For those who want to use their driver's license as ID to get on a plane or enter federal facilities, one type of license meets all Real ID requirements. For those who want to just be authorized to drive, that license just requires proof of residency and passing all the driving requirements (which were the pre-real ID requirements here). A passport can also generally be used in lieu of a Real ID for planes and federal facilities.

    Obviously, some of our licenses are issued to those here illegally. The rationale provided by our legislature is that we want all drivers to know the rules of the road and to be insured when they drive. However, our state always ranks near the top in % of uninsured drivers.

  9. #59

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    I'm struggling to list the privileges I'd be entitled to if I entered a foreign country illegally but I can't think of any.

    I just spent $$ and a weekend getting a motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license. Makes me wonder why I bother with the hassle and expense of following the law when so many people are on the road w/no license or insurance.
    Last edited by Pat001; August-06-19 at 07:01 AM.

  10. #60

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    I hesitate to participate in this discussion, because as usual with topics that are getting batted around like softballs by the blowhards who'd rather lie to us to rile us up for our votes and loyalty than tell us the real deal, the amount of misinformation being parroted is surreal. But here goes...

    For those saying the proposal to officially identify unauthorized state residents brings privileges and benefits, please list them.

    Because getting a State ID or Drivers License does NOT somehow grant legal status to live here. It does NOT come with the ability to vote. It does NOT make it legal to work. It does NOT grant access to state or federal assistance. And if an unauthorized resident passes the tests, obtains a Drivers License, and it DOES make it possible to buy car insurance, who would benefit from that? Easy answer: ALL OF US. Or do you prefer more hit and run accidents and higher insurance rates instead?

    A State ID simply makes it possible to reliably identify who people are. A Drivers License helps ensure people know the rules of our roads, and makes tracking and enforcement easier.

    Anything else? Be specific.
    Last edited by bust; August-06-19 at 03:01 AM.

  11. #61

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    ^ specifically it is called illegal because when one breaks the law it is considered doing something illegal.

    Not undocumented.

    It is illegal to enter the country and stay beyond your authorized time limit.

    It is illegal to seek and obtain employment while in the US as a non citizen.

    So where do they get the funds to purchase and operate a motor vehicle?

    Where do they get the funds to purchase a drivers license?

    While operating a motor vehicle as an illegal and ICE has a plate scanner while sitting on the side of the road will a legal drivers license give them a pass on deportation?

    Nope,because it is illegal to be in the country illegally.

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by CassTechGrad View Post
    Michigan Just Made It A Lot Easier To Vote
    11/06/2018 11:27 pm ET

    "Michigan voters on Tuesday approved a constitutional amendment intended to make it drastically easier to cast a ballot in the state. Voters in the state will now be automatically registered to vote when they interact with the state’s motor vehicle agency unless they opt out."Attachment 38695
    How would a non-citizen be registered to vote when they're not eligible for it?

  13. #63

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    I think it would help to clarify what is the current "status quo" regarding an undocumented person (or expired visa person) (of whatever ethnicity/nationality) who is interested in driving/having a license.

  14. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    How would a non-citizen be registered to vote when they're not eligible for it?
    As ridiculous as it sounds, it is one of several drawbacks to Proposal 2. We're basically just taking someone's word that they're a U.S citizen and eligible to vote. Giving illegal aliens the ability to obtain Michigan Driver's licenses would likely just compound the issue.

  15. #65

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    Oh yeah that factor seems to re-emerge despite the political efforts to bury it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    ...While operating a motor vehicle as an illegal and ICE has a plate scanner while sitting on the side of the road will a legal drivers license give them a pass on deportation?

    Nope, because it is illegal to be in the country illegally.
    Last edited by Zacha341; August-05-19 at 09:24 PM.

  16. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    ^ specifically it is called illegal because when one breaks the law it is considered doing something illegal.

    Not undocumented.

    It is illegal to enter the country and stay beyond your authorized time limit.
    ...
    I think you're confusing the responsibilities of the state government and the federal government. It is the federal government's responsibility to control the borders. It's the state government's responsibility to keep order within the state. The federal government has let in roughly 130,000 undocumented, illegal immigrants into your state. That's the reality. What are you, the state government, going to do to keep chaos from erupting in your state?

  17. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by archfan View Post
    I think you're confusing the responsibilities of the state government and the federal government. It is the federal government's responsibility to control the borders. It's the state government's responsibility to keep order within the state. The federal government has let in roughly 130,000 undocumented, illegal immigrants into your state. That's the reality. What are you, the state government, going to do to keep chaos from erupting in your state?
    Maybe start by not impeding the federal governments mission when it comes to the removal of illegals by not supplying sanctuary.

    Unless it has passed Michigan does not require employers to use the federal employment base.

    In the link provided in the first post this is what the governor said.

    “That’s something that’s important to me, it’s important to our economy, and it’s important to the people of Michigan.”


    Let’s take a look at that part.

    The argument is while illegals are employed they are paying taxes,so after removing that section from the equation,please help me with the math.

    The cost to the Michigan taxpayer is currently $857.6 million dollars.

    You currently have an estimated 140,000 to 180,000 illegals.

    So after dividing 180,000 by $857.6 million how much does it cost you as a taxpayer to support each individual illegal?

    Now factor in our individual part in the $146 billion it cost on the federal side.

    Do you feel that it is good for the economy?

    https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/new-map-cost-illegal-immigration-state


    The argument is always about the state should not be picking winners and losers when it comes to incentives for buisness.

    But yet that is exactly what they are doing when it comes to people,and it is supported and campaigned for.

    Do not feel to bad,in Florida our numbers are $6.3 billion we also choose to support illegals over our own fellow Americans,because our own fellow Americans have no value to us as humans.

    They can stay put in the ghetto going to shit schools getting terrorized by thugs because thier value as a United States citizen means nothing,unless of course it is time to go to war,then put your X on the line and stand out front.

    People are quick to claim racist when we oppose illegal immigration,what do you call it when you step over and keep down your own fellow Americans?

    Personally I think any politician that stands up there and offers sanctuary while they keep the inner cities as they are should be arrested and charged with treason.

    Cannot find money for schools and roads or advanced education but they damn sure find billions of dollars off of the tax payers back in order to support everybody but who they are supposed to support.

    Some of the Democrats will stand up on thier platform and yell to everybody who will listen .. That is not who we are.

    Thats who we are,we throw our own citizens out with the trash in order provide for others first so we can justify that we are good people and sleep at night.
    Last edited by Richard; August-06-19 at 04:12 AM.

  18. #68

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    State-by-state requirements for voting in each state. Michigan is in the second category.

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  19. #69

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    I concede to the word-ascribing scene somewhat using the word 'undocumented' adding (Illegal) to be inclusive to audiences that might tune out otherwise.

    I get that the increasing new constraint of what you call/ identify things/ concepts (as ascribed) is a whole 'nuther' set of politics often driven by social agenda leveraged to alter perception.

    And in some cases adds to the incoherence factor in decision/ law making!

    A is not A. It is what your group or consent demands it to be or identified as.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    ^ specifically it is called illegal because when one breaks the law it is considered doing something illegal.

    Not undocumented.
    Last edited by Zacha341; August-06-19 at 01:46 PM.

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnny5 View Post
    As ridiculous as it sounds, it is one of several drawbacks to Proposal 2. We're basically just taking someone's word that they're a U.S citizen and eligible to vote. Giving illegal aliens the ability to obtain Michigan Driver's licenses would likely just compound the issue.
    If someone is a legal immigrant, or an American citizen with certain felonies, or an American citizen who is under 18, they can't vote, but they can have driver's licenses.

    If someone is ineligible to vote, if they tried to manually register to vote, it wouldn't work, so I don't see why it would work if it was automatic.

  21. #71

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    Why can't the Federal or State gov't issue an id with a number/stamp that allows undocumented individuals to identify themselves? It's then up to Federal, State and Local gov'ts to decide what these individuals will be allowed to obtain with it. The number would be identifiable on the Driver's License, etc. I really don't see the issue.

  22. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by 401don View Post
    Why can't the Federal or State gov't issue an id with a number/stamp that allows undocumented individuals to identify themselves? It's then up to Federal, State and Local gov'ts to decide what these individuals will be allowed to obtain with it. The number would be identifiable on the Driver's License, etc. I really don't see the issue.
    The Obama administration did under the DACA program,you got a SS number for work,ID etc. with the understanding that they would follow the path to citizenship.Not many did.

    It was a temporary program put in place in order to kick the can down the road without actually doing anything.

    The program expired.

    He did it by useing executive order because if the federal government deems somebody in the country as illegals they cannot very well be providing assistance to them,they would be breaking the very laws that they are tasked to enforce.

    Illegals are wary about being placed on federal lists and the states that have allowed illegals to obtain identification have given them thier word that they will not provide those lists to the federal government.

    The use of the term undocumented came about with DACA or the children brought into this country illegally by thier parents.

    It was an attempt to separate those here illegally,their parents and ones that overstayed thier visas or snuck across the border from the ones viewed as they did not have a choice as a child when they were brought here.

    But most kicked the can down the road after being presented with a kick the can down the road program ,and here we are.

    Before 9-11 an illegal could get drivers license,bank accounts with no SS number a job etc and have all the perks of a citizen,so there was no incentive to actually become a citizen,why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free.

    Every President elect and senate elect and congress elect in the past campaigned on illegal immigration and the deportations but once they get into office they quickly forget about the mission they promised.

    Sense the 1920s green card holders with felonies and illegals with felonies were always the priority for mass deportations,they have limited resources to deport but unlimited resources to support the illegals.

    Most of the states that issued ID cards caught flak/law suits from the immigration groups because they used to supply ID that was special marked to identify the status was illegal.

    They used the reference of Hitler marking the Jews for easy reference.

    So most states just provide a drivers license like everybody else has,they still put restrictions on them but if the little bar code reader is passed over a magnet or becomes defective it becomes a null point.

    The easiest/cheaper route would be to secure the border and offer a path to citizenship then deport those who do not wish to take advantage of.

    Every politician on both sides in the past has campaigned on that very route but never did it,the current president campaigned on the same thing and was the only one to actually start doing it,and was called a racist.

    So now no need to worry about drivers license,round them all up and deport them useing the current laws on the books and then start over with a proper system.

    The problem is most of those illegals are not highly educated and work experienced,so you get a flood of that category and it does drive down wages for the under employed.

    We have quotas for every country based on skill levels,and non skilled,so we can manage and keep up with the flow,but it appears not to be working.
    Last edited by Richard; August-06-19 at 05:09 PM.

  23. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The easiest/cheaper route would be to secure the border and offer a path to citizenship then deport those who do not wish to take advantage of.
    Thanks for the detailed response. This seems like the logical solution so of course it will never happen.

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    ...
    https://thefederalistpapers.org/us/new-map-cost-illegal-immigration-state


    ...
    Do not feel to bad,in Florida our numbers are $6.3 billion we also choose to support illegals over our own fellow Americans,because our own fellow Americans have no value to us as humans.
    ...
    I followed your link, and that lead to a paper from which they based the article. The first footnote I followed in the paper referred back to a previous version of this report, which is no longer available, so they give the current version. So, the paper is citing itself as the authority for the base number of immigrant children. In research, that's called making crap up.

    In my opinion, given that we just gave up $1.3 trillion in tax revenue for rich people, I figure we can rethink that and have more money to not treat anyone poorly.
    Last edited by archfan; August-07-19 at 01:13 AM.

  25. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    ...
    The easiest/cheaper route would be to secure the border and offer a path to citizenship then deport those who do not wish to take advantage of.
    ...
    I agree with you. It would be nice if Congress and the executive branch could agree on that.

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