Uniting Hart and Spirit Plazas: Bridge or Tunnel?

[Gistok]

I have no qualms in your arguments about taking a bus downtown... but I would be traveling alone. I have a niece who drives to work every day at DMC, and a nephew who drives to work every day to the Ally Bulding [[and parks at the garage behind their tower). I would get overruled...

I don't want any more parking structures downtown any more than you all do. But ironically it is a requirement for banks to lend money to build buildings to have parking to go along with it. We would just rather use any excess of it during downtime...

Nobody hates the Macedonian Parking Cartel more than I do...

[ParisianLesion]

Is this what we're talking about?

Attachment 38683

If so, I say ... neither.

First off, get all the goofy out of the way and reopen the street to traffic like responsible cities do.

Then, instead of wasting money on more goofy, spend that money to improve streets, lighting and emergency service response times in the neighborhoods.

Ahhh the old "we can't have this because we don't have that" argument. Enlightened.

[Honky Tonk]

Ahhh the old "we can't have this because we don't have that" argument. Enlightened.

Finally...

[masterblaster]

Detroit shouldn't really be making planning decisions to make it convenient for people who don't live there or pay taxes to the city.

I totally disagree, I am of the opinion that the city of Detroit should pay for the establishment of a commuter rail system that would make it more convenient for suburban commuters and suburban concertgoers/sports fans to get to downtown.

3 Major Benefits
1.This would encourage more employers to move downtown, as the avoidance of traffic congestion would be something downtown has over suburban employment centers
2. no longer having to pay for parking would also make downtown more on the level with the suburban employment centers, and would also offset, somewhat, the city income tax that suburban commuters have to pay.
3. reduce the mileage on commuters' vehicles, making downtown more of an attractive work option for people who live in somewhat far away places [[like Ann Arbor, Lansing,Toledo, and exurbia).

Lines using EXISTING RAILROADS out to
-Downriver/Toledo
-Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti,
-the I-96 corridor [[Plymouth/Novi/Brighton/Lansing/EL),
-Woodward Corridor [[basically re-start the original service that existed from 1931-1983)
-Van Dyke Corridor
-Gratiot Corridor

I think since this system would benefit Detroit city the most, we should bear the brunt of paying for this system. The only new construction would be to a downtown station and a 3-mile line from New Center to downtown. Having such a commuter rail system would also eliminate the need for all of that parking downtown, as half of downtown's land area is dedicated to parking cars.

Concerning Jefferson: narrow it to 7-9 lanes total like the other arterials [[Gratiot, Fort, Michigan)

[scarecrow]

First off, get all the goofy out of the way and reopen the street to traffic like responsible cities do.

Well as long as you don't come downtown [[which we already know you don't) then all the goofy is out of the way.

[iheartthed]

I totally disagree, I am of the opinion that the city of Detroit should pay for the establishment of a commuter rail system that would make it more convenient for suburban commuters and suburban concertgoers/sports fans to get to downtown.

Using money from where? I think it's terrible policy for the city of Detroit to cover the cost of suburban commuter lines. But there SHOULD be a regional transit authority with taxation powers over Metro Detroit. That is just basic ass policy that Detroit is about half a century behind on implementing.

There's a good argument that transit should be under the authority of the state or MDOT. The country's best transit systems [[NYC, Chicago, Boston, Phila., New Jersey, etc.) are all state agencies.

[MrMichigan]

Number one option, Jefferson needs to be buried and reduced in size. A bridge would be second.

The fact that there are multiple posters opposing these ideas [[and encouraging reopening roads) is concerning.

[stasu1213]

Put an escalator and skywalk over Jefferson you come out cheaper

[royce]

Number one option, Jefferson needs to be buried and reduced in size. A bridge would be second.

The fact that there are multiple posters opposing these ideas [[and encouraging reopening roads) is concerning.

I don't understand the thinking that Jefferson needs to buried underground or its lanes reduced. Yes it has eight lanes, but there is this huge median down the middle of it that essentially reduces it to four lanes. Four lanes are not impossible to cross. And who cares if it takes a few minutes longer to cross Jefferson, take the time to see the beautiful buildings and landscaping. Therefore, building a pedestrian bridge or tunnel to get across Jefferson is absolutely unnecessary.

Campus Martius Park, Cadillac Square Park, and now Spirit Plaza have made Hart Plaza obsolete. If they didn't exist, then more people would use Hart Plaza. I don't think a bridge or tunnel is going to change the current condition of Hart Plaza as long as these other areas exist. If the weekly Ethnic/Riverfront festivals still existed, then Hart Plaza would be well utilized. Until you have planning like that for Hart Plaza, it will continue to be underutilized. As it stands now, there are only two events that require Hart Plaza as a venue, the Electronic Music Festival and the Detroit Jazz Festival.

So the debate really shouldn't be about whether to build a bridge or tunnel to get across Jefferson, the debate should be about answering the following question, "What to do with Hart Plaza?

[Gistok]

I don't understand the thinking that Jefferson needs to buried underground or its lanes reduced. Yes it has eight lanes, but there is this huge median down the middle of it that essentially reduces it to four lanes. Four lanes are not impossible to cross. And who cares if it takes a few minutes longer to cross Jefferson, take the time to see the beautiful buildings and landscaping. Therefore, building a pedestrian bridge or tunnel to get across Jefferson is absolutely unnecessary.

Campus Martius Park, Cadillac Square Park, and now Spirit Plaza have made Hart Plaza obsolete. If they didn't exist, then more people would use Hart Plaza. I don't think a bridge or tunnel is going to change the current condition of Hart Plaza as long as these other areas exist. If the weekly Ethnic/Riverfront festivals still existed, then Hart Plaza would be well utilized. Until you have planning like that for Hart Plaza, it will continue to be underutilized. As it stands now, there are only two events that require Hart Plaza as a venue, the Electronic Music Festival and the Detroit Jazz Festival.

So the debate really shouldn't be about whether to build a bridge or tunnel to get across Jefferson, the debate should be about answering the following question, "What to do with Hart Plaza?

Royce I tend to agree with you on the Hart Plaza usage issue. I remember back in the 1980s when the ethnic festivals were downtown, it was awesome. Lots of Detroiters and suburbanites came down. The plaza was perfect for that kind of usage. Even the underground areas were used for booths and selling food. Hart Plaza was busy every summer weekend.

It's just the festivals all left, for various reasons [[we all know why the Yugoslavia Fest left... no more Yugoslavia).

It's just that the downtown festivals went the way of the Festive Marketplaces [[Trappers Alley, Tally Hall, Portside, etc).

[casscorridor]

pedestrian bridges can be landmarks in their own right. look at this one in Shanghai

[stasu1213]

Las Vegas has a bridge over one of the eight lane avenues where outdoor escalators take you to it. I think Jefferson became 8 lanes to accommodate the traffic coming off the Lodge and also 375. How did Jefferson looked in that area before 375 and the Lodfe were built?

[Zacha341]

Wow! That's one heck of a round-a-bout and walk-a-bout! We could never abide by this order and cooperation.

pedestrian bridges can be landmarks in their own right. look at this one in Shanghai

[Atticus]

Another +1 on the programming issue.

Hart Plaza needs to be reconstructed as a festival site. And yes, that means having the ability to easily fence much of the area off allowing only patrons attending the event inside the park when the festival is occurring. Otherwise it is a vacant homeless haven.

Hart Plaza doesn't work as a pass-thru park. The location is such that any one going to Hart Plaza is going there because of what is happening there, and not because they are passing through. Campus Martius, GCP, etc. work as pass-thru parks because people have a reason to pass-thru. Not so for Hart Plaza. Obviously maintain some routes from downtown to the river walk, but make most of Hart Plaza a permanent festival site.

[Uncledave54]

How did Jefferson looked in that area before 375 and the Lodfe were built?

Warehouses and factories.

[Seven&wyo]

^^^I'd much prefer that then what's there now. I hate Hart Plaza

[Danny]

Not going to work. As for right now The Detroit City 'Ward' District Council is trying to figure out how to Spirit Plaza open by November or covert it back to Woodward Ave. connecting to and from Jefferson Ave again.

That area was not meant to be a plaza. Downtown Detroit is Judge Augustus Woodward's broken wagon wheel [[Post-Psuedo Washington D.C. streetscape) design with narrow streets to keep the flow of traffic going without creating too much clogging! And it we should keep it that way.

[DetroitSoldier]

Not going to work. As for right now The Detroit City 'Ward' District Council is trying to figure out how to Spirit Plaza open by November or covert it back to Woodward Ave. connecting to and from Jefferson Ave again.

That area was not meant to be a plaza. Downtown Detroit is Judge Augustus Woodward's broken wagon wheel [[Post-Psuedo Washington D.C. streetscape) design with narrow streets to keep the flow of traffic going without creating too much clogging! And it we should keep it that way.

If we should keep it the way Judge Woodward designed it, we should also have only pedestrians and horses, with wagons only allowed on certain streets.

Times change, needs and usages change.

[hamtramck boy]

There are a ton of arguments for and against bridges and tunnels that have been made here that I won't restate, but one solution that may check all the boxes is a migratory bridge. Gentle ramp up for accessibility, looks nice and green, doesn't require Jefferson to be buried... and it could transition right into the newly remodeled Hart Plaza. Something like the image below, but even wider. About the width of the Spirit Plaza, but getting wider as it opens into the Plaza.

Thoughts?

[night-timer]

Isn't there already major works going on in Spirit Plaza? I was there yesterday and a large area in front of the CAY building [[where the Spirit of Detroit sculpture sits) was boarded up and had what looked like construction workers.

It isn't too difficult to cross Jefferson from Spirit Plaza into Hart Plaza, as is. Riverwalk is popular, Hart Plaza not so popular. It looks as run down as the People Mover.

[iheartthed]

Detroit doesn't need to go quite this far, but NYC just banned cars on one of its main crosstown thoroughfares:

On Monday the city will proceed with its pilot plan to increase public-transit travel times along 14th Street in Manhattan by banning all through traffic between morning and evening rush hours, and reducing permitted vehicles to one lane in each direction.

The “Transit and Truck Priority” lanes plan originally was developed by NYC’s Department of Transportation to boost east-west crosstown bus service for passengers affected by the now-canceled shutdown of the L train for repairs. The car ban is the first of its kind for any major thoroughfare in New York City and is expected to last 18 months.

https://www.metro.us/news/local-news...-begins-monday

[masterblaster]

There are a ton of arguments for and against bridges and tunnels that have been made here that I won't restate, but one solution that may check all the boxes is a migratory bridge. Gentle ramp up for accessibility, looks nice and green, doesn't require Jefferson to be buried... and it could transition right into the newly remodeled Hart Plaza. Something like the image below, but even wider. About the width of the Spirit Plaza, but getting wider as it opens into the Plaza.


Thoughts?

Really Great Idea, the photo link does not work though.

[night-timer]

^^^I'd much prefer that then what's there now. I hate Hart Plaza

Hart Plaza is awfully run-down and rusty. It would also seem to contain quite a few longterm residents/loiterers, far more than other parts of central Detroit. The sculptures are all rather large and ugly, IMHO. A revamp of some sort is needed as part of Downtown's overall renaissance.

[stasu1213]

Using money from where? I think it's terrible policy for the city of Detroit to cover the cost of suburban commuter lines. But there SHOULD be a regional transit authority with taxation powers over Metro Detroit. That is just basic ass policy that Detroit is about half a century behind on implementing.

There's a good argument that transit should be under the authority of the state or MDOT. The country's best transit systems [[NYC, Chicago, Boston, Phila., New Jersey, etc.) are all state agencies.

I think that regional busses would be more cost efficient than light rail. The laying down of tracks and boarding stations where nonpaying riders could get o the train could be quite expensive

[night-timer]

Las Vegas has a bridge over one of the eight lane avenues where outdoor escalators take you to it. I think Jefferson became 8 lanes to accommodate the traffic coming off the Lodge and also 375. How did Jefferson looked in that area before 375 and the Lodfe were built?

I was in Las Vegas a few weeks ago. The bridge-with-elevator thing is quite common along Las Vegas Boulevard [['The Strip') because that road is very wide [[multi lane traffic) and is busy 24 hours a day. There's a bigger risk of pedestrian accidents on The Strip than Hart Plaza/Jefferson due to the plethora of drunk tourists in Vegas. The 'old Vegas' [[Fremont Street at the north end of Las Vegas Blvd) is now a mall for that very reason. A bridge across Jefferson would be better than a tunnel as a tunnel might bring crime and loitering.