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  1. #1
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    Default Will Detroit be left behind in 5G ?

    Is Detroit too poor to move forward with High Tech Communications ?
    Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile & Sprint are testing 5G network technology.
    AT&T announced Oklahoma City, Charlotte and Raleigh will join
    Atlanta, Dallas and Waco in the initial launch this year.
    Major network equipment companies like Nokia, Ericsson & Huawei,
    are building the backbone and equipment to support 5G.


    Last edited by O3H; July-21-18 at 06:52 AM.

  2. #2

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    Detroit becomes less significant every year.. The commercial rental market is cannibalistic; suburbs i.e. Southfield and Troy fighting downtown Detroit for office space. New business entering Detroit from other states or countries is virtually non existent. Detroit has one of the lowest (at 5%) foreign born populations of "large cities" in the USA. Literally zero functioning public transportation. The highest auto insurance in the USA. Always in the top 3 most violent cities in the USA. One of the highest property taxes in the USA. Functional literacy...50%?.. We could go on and on.... Only Ann Arbor gives Detroit any credibility on a national/international scale...

  3. #3
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    The stumbling block is fitting new 5G investments into local zoning,
    permitting and other regulations optimized for prior network architectures.
    5G’s architecture is radically different from its earlier counterparts.
    Instead of widely spaced large cell towers, 5G relies on smaller
    but denser configurations of shoebox-size antennae,
    many of which will be attached to existing buildings,
    streetlights and utility poles.

  4. #4

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    I will predict now that Detroit will get 5G in a few years, probably roughly when most cities do. There's nothing special about Detroit that makes it extra-difficult. While Detroit has a relatively poor population, it is dense by modern US standards and has lots of cellphone users. My understanding is that T-Mobile is already planning to deploy 600MHz (5G capable) cells in Detroit, but can't turn them on until their spectrum conflicts with WXYZ and other local TV stations are resolved when the TV stations release those frequencies in 2020.

  5. #5

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    I think many people in Metro-Detroit prioritize their phone bill above water, electricity, and cable. I don't see any issue with 5G coming to the area.

  6. #6
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    The catch - is the City of Detroit - itself.
    The regulation/permitting/redtape nightmare
    of the new 5G system architecture. (It's a different beast, small cell)
    Applications for small-cell implementations
    can take up to 18 to 24 months for approval, which is
    similar to the time required to approve one large macro cell tower

    In many cities, the approval cycle requires several
    separate tribunals for approval. Committees such as
    a neighborhood association, a planning commission,
    a zoning commission, the county council and others
    may each require a separate decision-making process.

    If Detroit wants to become a """Smart City"" of the high tech future
    it better figure out real quick how to deploy 5G , or be left behind, quick

    Municipalities might need to research a method of
    efficient fee administration.
    Rather than establishing a different price for each type
    of telephone pole, lamp post or streetlight,
    cities could create simple asset classes
    based on location, power requirements, maintenance
    requirements and engineering charges, thus
    providing optimal terms and conditions for each
    small-cell deployment, while reducing unnecessary paperwork.
    Last edited by O3H; July-21-18 at 06:52 AM.

  7. #7

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    Will Detroit Be Left Behind In 5G ?

    Detroit made it into cellular, 3G, 4G, WTF wouldn't it make the transfer into 5G? I'm more interested in Gilbert's Rocket Fiber than this, but it is what it is.

  8. #8
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    ^^^^ - Because it no longer uses those BIG TALL TOWERS --- thats why

    5G uses a different wavelength, it relies on LOTS of smaller antenna

    Nice to know you have lots of coin for Rocket Fiber ; Honkey Tonk
    (It's something like $70.00/mo for 1,000 Mbps)
    Last edited by O3H; July-21-18 at 08:51 AM.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colombian Dan View Post
    Detroit becomes less significant every year.. The commercial rental market is cannibalistic; suburbs i.e. Southfield and Troy fighting downtown Detroit for office space. New business entering Detroit from other states or countries is virtually non existent. Detroit has one of the lowest (at 5%) foreign born populations of "large cities" in the USA. Literally zero functioning public transportation. The highest auto insurance in the USA. Always in the top 3 most violent cities in the USA. One of the highest property taxes in the USA. Functional literacy...50%?.. We could go on and on.... Only Ann Arbor gives Detroit any credibility on a national/international scale...
    The reality is, companies are only focused on high growth regions for expansions (as they're taken into consideration the significant increase in future potential customers in addition to present potential customers).

    Detroit isn't growing at all, relatively speaking.

    5G internet will probably make it to Detroit eventually, but not before all of the more highly sought-after markets get it first.
    Last edited by 313WX; July-21-18 at 09:19 AM.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by O3H View Post
    ^^^^ - Because it no longer uses those BIG TALL TOWERS --- thats why
    5G is dual band - traditional <6GHz bands as well as ~28GHz bands. The lower bands still use the traditional large towers for long range at current speed, the higher frequencies are used for the new high speed low latency connections and will probably need the small cell sites.

    In other words, the large towers aren't going away. Large cities already use something similar to small cells as urban environments are terrible for RF propagation via large, high power antennas. Also, in a super-dense area like New York City, a large cell tower can be overwhelmed with connections (there's a physical limit how many simultaneous connections a single tower can handle) so you use more, smaller cell towers.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by O3H View Post
    ^^^^ - Because it no longer uses those BIG TALL TOWERS --- thats why

    5G uses a different wavelength, it relies on LOTS of smaller antenna

    Nice to know you have lots of coin for Rocket Fiber ; Honkey Tonk
    (It's something like $70.00/mo for 1,000 Mbps)
    I used to pay $2600 a month for T3 44 mps but now pay $59 per month fiber optic 100/100 which does everything I need including streaming,who outside of business needs 1,000 mps?

  12. #12
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    The catch is Detroit has to invest in 5G. (IoT and Smart City concepts)
    Issues of extreme demand within a small geographical area (hyperlocal);
    System to remain stable at ultra-low latency (hypermobile);
    Be able to support millions of connections at any instance (hyperscale).

    5G is expected to impact competitiveness
    - Remember Detroit lost Amazon HQ contest
    Last edited by O3H; July-21-18 at 02:12 PM.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by O3H View Post
    ^^^^ - Because it no longer uses those BIG TALL TOWERS --- thats why

    5G uses a different wavelength, it relies on LOTS of smaller antenna

    Nice to know you have lots of coin for Rocket Fiber ; Honkey Tonk
    (It's something like $70.00/mo for 1,000 Mbps)
    Nice to know you consider $840 a year "serious coin".

  14. #14

    Default

    If Oklahoma City is big enough of a market I'm sure Detroit is too...

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    If Oklahoma City is big enough of a market I'm sure Detroit is too...
    OKC is one of the fastest growing cities in the country.

  16. #16
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    DETROIT isn't even on the radar screen for 5G, according to AT&T
    The city simply isn't ready, and has done nothing to entice it.

    https://www.nbreports.com/att-5g-evolution-cities

    The City of Detroit government has to actively pursue it, or get left behind.
    5G networks rely on dense networks of small cells.
    Small cell deployments often need access to the public rights of way.
    Carriers target CITY owned assets for the installation of radios and antennas.
    It might involve trenching city streets to lay fiber for fronthaul and/or backhaul.
    Michigan has done nothing to lay foundation of small cell legislation

    Will real estate developers spend more to make
    their buildings ready for small cells ?
    The added cost of foresight and making a
    building ready for small cells
    is likely to be lower than the cost
    of making adaptations after the structure is complete.

    All four of the carriers want to deploy tens of thousands
    of outdoor small cells to support 5G
    Last edited by O3H; July-21-18 at 05:46 PM.

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by O3H View Post
    The catch - is the City of Detroit - itself.
    ...snip...
    Certainly true. But Detroit is as well-positioned as anyone to make changes like you describe.

    I just listened to a podcast wherein David Brooks (NYT) talked about meeting with Mike Duggan. He was celebrating the resurgence of competence-driven municipal executives. Duggan was listed alongside a few other towns where good governance is being pursued rather than focusing on in-fighting. He said he was impressed by Duggan discussing where street-light poles were to be placed. Maybe you've connected the dots for me. Maybe he was talking about how to best adapt to 5G in Detroit.

  18. #18
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 313WX View Post
    OKC is one of the fastest growing cities in the country.
    Not true. OKC is a slow-growth metro, and quite small. It's around the size of GR.

    What is the point of this thread? Is there a serious argument that a U.S. metro of 5 million will somehow not receive 5G?

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    Certainly true. But Detroit is as well-positioned as anyone to make changes like you describe.

    I just listened to a podcast wherein David Brooks (NYT) talked about meeting with Mike Duggan. He was celebrating the resurgence of competence-driven municipal executives. Duggan was listed alongside a few other towns where good governance is being pursued rather than focusing on in-fighting. He said he was impressed by Duggan discussing where street-light poles were to be placed. Maybe you've connected the dots for me. Maybe he was talking about how to best adapt to 5G in Detroit.
    This thread dovetails nicely into why Detroit lacks things...The culture simply does not support modern technology. Numbers vary a bit.. but a very large portion of Detroit residents do not have an internet connection. Attending school on a daily basis is a foreign idea to half the population. Households led by single women with multiple children from different absentee fathers doesn't advance the technology gap. Municipal theft of power lines, light poles, construction equipment is rife in Detroit. Adding more "gadgets" to existing light poles will only incentivize more people to cut down light poles. Detroit will be last to receive 5G. Duggan may be competent, but the people he leads are of a completely different caliber....

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colombian Dan View Post
    This thread dovetails nicely into why Detroit lacks things...The culture simply does not support modern technology. Numbers vary a bit.. but a very large portion of Detroit residents do not have an internet connection. Attending school on a daily basis is a foreign idea to half the population. Households led by single women with multiple children from different absentee fathers doesn't advance the technology gap. Municipal theft of power lines, light poles, construction equipment is rife in Detroit. Adding more "gadgets" to existing light poles will only incentivize more people to cut down light poles. Detroit will be last to receive 5G. Duggan may be competent, but the people he leads are of a completely different caliber....
    I share your concerns about Detroit, but not your pessimism about our citizens.

    Yes, all of what you say is true about some of Detroit. I believe that there are a large, quiet population as well of people living here in every neighborhood who 'get it'. We can succeed by focusing less on the loud malcontents who are marginalizing our citizens, and more on the great residents of our city who are open to change.

    Duggan's election shows that it is possible for a technocrat to get elected. I hope all of Detroit's leaders can now see just what great things are possible when you focus on competence and not on divisive identity politics.

    Here's an idea...

    Take all the money the City spends on the office of Human Rights, and spend it all subsidizing cellphone and data service for anyone who has lived in Detroit for more than 10 years. That'll help human rights much more.

  21. #21
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    It all boils down to INFRAstructure, something severely lacking in Detroit.
    Detroit just barely crawled out of a Bankruptcy, it's basically still broke.
    The City itself, investing big money, into something like the 5G, won't happen

    Those "other" cities, were better adapted to apply 5G system architecture.

    Some white papers, reports, claim 5G represents
    a fundamental transformation of the role that
    mobile technology plays in society.

    LACK of EDUCATION can halt progress -- https://goo.gl/images/KUt1ti
    Residents of Warren,Michigan had to wait several years, (put on hold) in order to get Smart Meters from DTE - due to the eclectic and abundant stupidity of several dumb individuals complaining about "radiation" which they knew nothing about. They could not pass a high school class involving discussion on Electrons, Protons, Neutrons and the Radiation given off by atoms which had more than the normal complement of energy-- i.e. "excited" atoms. These imbeciles made such a fuss as to get Warren City Council to stop DTE from installing the units.
    ***In the meantime the rest of us, perhaps updating an older home with new fuse panel, had to wait years to have a SmartMeter installed.
    Last edited by O3H; July-22-18 at 02:14 PM.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    Not true. OKC is a slow-growth metro
    As usual, yet more "alternative facts" from Bham1982...

    https://www.newmarklsb.com/uploads/m...lgnllg0qp6.pdf

    "Oklahoma City has seen immense growth over the past decade. Asof 2017, the Oklahoma City Metro area’s population is nearing 1.4million people. Its population has grown by more than 6% (doublethe national average) since the 2010 Census. Since 2010, theOklahoma City MSA is the 10th fastest growing large metro in thecountry (more than 1 million population) and has grown twice asfast as the U.S."

  23. #23
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    Default

    I think the population thing is a red herring and has nothing to do with it

    5G is a different animal altogether (think small size, not big)

    Another key technical aspect of 5G networks will be the use
    of high-frequency spectrum, above 6 GHz, and particularly
    the use of millimetre wave (mmW) spectrum.
    The mmW signals experience orders-of-magnitude more path-loss
    than the microwave signals currently used in most wireless systems.
    The 5G system has the potential to offer multi-Gbps data rates
    at a lower marginal cost than previous technologies due to
    the potential allocation of much more bandwidth at these frequencies.
    However, real-world measurements of mmW spectrum (28 GHz and 73 GHz)
    indicate cell sites using these frequencies
    will have small radii of 100–200 yards.
    Those frequency bands are not for wide area coverage but local hotspots,
    forcing change in the deployment cost model.
    Last edited by O3H; July-22-18 at 03:29 PM.

  24. #24

    Default

    Maybe 5G will be different but most cities that implemented city wide wifi phased it out shortly,it has to be paid for and most ended up sitting outside for a good signal.

  25. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by O3H View Post
    I think the population thing is a red herring and has nothing to do with it

    5G is a different animal altogether (think small size, not big)

    Another key technical aspect of 5G networks will be the use
    of high-frequency spectrum, above 6 GHz, and particularly
    the use of millimetre wave (mmW) spectrum.
    The mmW signals experience orders-of-magnitude more path-loss
    than the microwave signals currently used in most wireless systems.
    The 5G system has the potential to offer multi-Gbps data rates
    at a lower marginal cost than previous technologies due to
    the potential allocation of much more bandwidth at these frequencies.
    However, real-world measurements of mmW spectrum (28 GHz and 73 GHz)
    indicate cell sites using these frequencies
    will have small radii of 100–200 yards.
    Those frequency bands are not for wide area coverage but local hotspots,
    forcing change in the deployment cost model.
    I don't think any of what you are saying is an actual problem, but let's pretend it is. 5G doesn't require small cells. It only requires small cells if you have enough people to use up your bandwidth within a cell; otherwise you can use your regular cell towers at lower frequencies. So what will most likely happen is that the providers will deploy 5G that way pretty much everywhere to provide more-or-less seamless national coverage, and will provide the smaller high-frequency cells as demand and experience dictate. But you know what; this is one of those things that will have a clear answer and which we will live long enough to find out what that answer was, unlike a bunch of other stuff that comes up on this forum. Let's check back in 2021 and see how it turned out.

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