the national economy

[oladub]

Given that
-the U.S. has a $22T national debt or $269,113 of federal debt per family of four,
-we at least has to pay the interest on this debt,
-the federal debt is again about to rise at a $1T/year pace,
-we have a $621B annual trade deficit [[2018),
-we have to choose between higher taxes or higher deficits,
-new taxes can be income taxes, tariffs, tolls, fees...,
-Democrats, President Trump. and most Republicans are doing nothing to restrain spending or to increase taxes,
-signs abound that the recovery has peaked and a recession is brewing,
-and we are being entertained with campaign promises of free stuff costing more trillions,
there is the need for a thread to entertain thoughts and proposals to address our situation.

[oladub]

Modern Monetary Theory - a beginners guide. AOC believes in this. MMT's premises, as I understand them, include that government's should not be afraid of printing money, interest rates are unnatural and should be zero, and that if inflation kicks in from too much private and government spending, then taxes could be increased on consumers and businesses. If it works or at least believed in, it is a license for expensive new government programs.

[Meddle]

There's such a weird confliction.

I recently had a lumber guy tell me that prices are up and willingness to make deals is down because of so much new construction.

Yet I also see lumberyards and other businesses closing.


People say they want all levels of Government to do more yet they want lower taxes and smaller Government.

[Richard]

I think the biggest problem is many feel that the government is there as a mommy.

IF we stopped being a consumer and started being a builder,Free would not be needed,Free is the easy way out instead of dealing with what really needs to be done.

It does not cost a politician anything to promote free,it is a safe word for thier base and requires no explanation as to how to pay for it.

If a collage student could graduate into a decent paying job,they could pay for thier debts.

If decent paying jobs were advailable,$15 per hour would not even be an issue.

If people were making decent money they could afford the things they desire.

If the free stuff would stop it would Free up funds to deal with other pressing issues like infrastructure and schools etc.

When the Chinese and Indians start being able to purchase the cheap crap that they export they will become thier own market,they are going through thier industrial stage and history shows what happens when the wages are raised.

You cannot ask for free from the government but yet turn around and support financially Everybody in every country but your own without lowering your own standards.

That is what has been happening and the results are what we now see and the country borrowing in order to dig out is not working,the time will come to pay the piper and this country will crash when it happens.

They want to dump trillions into climate change,guess what,we will never be able to change the climate,it will happen and we will adapt.

Save the planet,ban paper bags to save the trees but kill the oceans with plastic.

They come up with all of these things without realizing that we pay for it while major corporations are making millions,they love it.

They create issues then try to look like saviors with the solutions,but people that support them do not realize that they are the ones that are going to pay for the solutions,decreasing thier standard of living even further.

Its a trap.

For an example.

Dupont held the only patent for Freon,that patent was set to expire.

The call came that Freon kills the ozone,which opened the market outside of DuPont.

Counsumers paid hundreds of millions to convert thier homes and cars from R12 to 134A in order to save the planet,134A was a direct replacement for R12 but yet the dealers charged the adverage person $1200 to “convert” over to 134a,there was no conversion.

So the American consumers paid hundreds of millions from thier pocket in order to save the planet while actually doing nothing in the process.

All it did was open the market to other suppliers in order to fill a demand that was already being filled.

But it made people feel good.Cheaper to just hit up a massage parlor.

I saw a survey the other day that said that 75% of women polled from age 20 to age 53 prefers a socialist society over a capitalist one.

I have never met any women that were that way outside of a few gold diggers.

A lot of it is a form of propaganda,telling people what they want to hear in order to place the idea of acceptance in thier minds,it does not matter if it is feasible or not.

[Uncledave54]

Screw the Repubs & Demons, Vote Libertarian.

[Johnnny5]

The U.S economy was "rescued" with a massive debt binge and the end of binges are almost always followed by a hangover. Auto debts are at record high levels, student loan debts are at record high levels, consumer credit card debts are at record high levels. Corporate debts? Yep, record high levels. We've incurred debt at the expense of future growth, and we'll pay for it eventually. It's not going to be pretty!

[Zacha341]

Or at least look left and right when crossing the street of politics unfolding to policy and social culture.

Who'd think only bad things come solely from one direction?

I don't......

Screw the Repubs & Demons, Vote Libertarian.

[Richard]

Screw the Repubs & Demons, Vote Libertarian.

I agree with the libertarian mindset and think the founding fathers were of the same,outside of the religious aspect of excepting gays,they would have never gone for that.

We are also kinda stuck in the role playing savior to the world,the strong always try to eat the weak and the last time we sat back in the end 100 million lives were lost.

Until it gets to the part of open borders,with the way the world is we as a country would be overwhelmed with people fleeing poverty,take that part out and I could be comfortable as a libertarian.

Keep in mind though,the south was all about less government intervention along with a lot of the other libertarian thoughts,and we know how well that went and they are considered traitors still to this day.

There is to much money in government for any of them to give up any power.They created that power to circumvent the whole tree of liberty needs to be refreshed aspect.

We as a country are not on a sustainable path,China said they will conquer the world without fireing a shot and I believe it,they are in it for the long haul we are in it for what can you do for me today,few care about tomorrow.

Presidents can propose budgets but they still have to be passed by the house and senate,to say Trump created debt is a slippery slope,no matter what he proposes the house is not going to pass it,remember Obama and his ,I have a pen and am not afraid to use it? How well did that work out.

[oladub]

This morning's BBC World News headline: Migrant Children's Crises: Democrats Agree $4.5B Aid for Migrants at Border Since our federal debt is already $269,113 per family of four, and our annual deficits are approaching $1T/year, this $4.5B for illegal alien children will have to be billed to our own children. It isn't even a compromise bill.

"The Democrats' version... contains several strict rules setting out that the funds can be used for humanitarian aid only, and "not for immigration raids, not detention beds, not a border wall."

[Zacha341]

AOC is a child when it comes to this. She's thinking simplistically, to a group listening simplistically. Often she will trod right back over a statement she makes admitting her low knowledge on the give subject. Shocking........

Modern Monetary Theory - a beginners guide. AOC believes in this. MMT's premises, as I understand them, include that government's should not be afraid of printing money, interest rates are unnatural and should be zero, and that if inflation kicks in from too much private and government spending, then taxes could be increased on consumers and businesses. If it works or at least believed in, it is a license for expensive new government programs.

[Zacha341]

In the mean time we have children here [[Detroit and US other cities and communities) that go to bed in poverty and hunger every night.

Where are our priorities?

This morning's BBC World News headline: Migrant Children's Crises: Democrats Agree $4.5B Aid for Migrants at Border Since our federal debt is already $269,113 per family of four, and our annual deficits are approaching $1T/year, this $4.5B for illegal alien children will have to be billed to our own children. It isn't even a compromise bill.

"The Democrats' version... contains several strict rules setting out that the funds can be used for humanitarian aid only, and "not for immigration raids, not detention beds, not a border wall."

[Richard]

Maybe off thread Wayfair employees are staging a walkout because Wayfair is providing the beds for the detention centers and the employees feel that they are contributing to inhuman conditions.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business...uhN/story.html

This is why we are where we are,where we are at.

Complain about inhuman conditions but when a company provides comfortable beds to improve those conditions boycott them,and walk off the job.

Nothing needs to make sense,it just has to give a moment of satisfaction.

Last time the was a balanced budget was in 2002,which was also the start of the housing boom when everybody became expert real estate investors,then it all crashed and we are back to robbing Peter to pay Paul and printing money.

[Zacha341]

^^^ There's absolutely no solution sought here. Only screed, poli-tricks and more incoherence. What were the children sleeping on under former president Obama??

**Incoherence Spoiler Alert**

Would the protesters prefer there be NO BEDS provided at all?! Back to the aluminum foil sleeping bags? ....SMH....

--------------------------------------

I can do one better [[towards something coherent): I say send some of those beds for free to the poor destitute children of Detroit!

AOC got this grist going by comparing the centers to concentration camps.

Good job -- You go girl!

If only Trump would step the frig' down so the far left can stop, THINK, and cease with the pretzel-headed logic of denouncing everything deemed Trump related!!

[Richard]

^ I agree send 4.6 billion to the border to deal with illegal immigration not fix only covering the last 6 months.

That is 4.6 billion gone and added to the debt.

If we took the same 4.6 billion and picked 5 cities and pumped 1 billion into each inner city improving the schools and advancing careers,we would get that money back in increased productivity.

That is going into debt with a return verses spending billions and trillions in the name of security and fake compassion and it is just gone with nothing to show for it.

I think it takes one demented and borderline traitor to the country to spend billions on everybody else but thier own citizens.

You feed your family first when you have extra then you can be in a position to help others,you are not going to starve your own family in order to help somebody else.

We do not serve the government they are supposed to serve us,a government for the people by the people,some of these far left nutjobs really need to take a step back and re-evaluate what thier role in this picture really is.

[Zacha341]

Ehh, all the photos you can stand.... looks like mostly SJW's.

I'm sure someone not protesting in the factory is like 'Please go away so I don't loose my job!'

Comment section is pretty wild BTW:

'A prison with a bed is still a prison'

[Richard]

Here is an interesting break down of the national debt and who owns it.

As you can see, if you add up the debt held by Social Security and all the retirement and pension funds, almost half of the U.S. Treasury debt is held in trust for your retirement. If the United States defaults on its debt, foreign investors would be angry, but current and future retirees would be hurt the most.

https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-...l-debt-3306124

[oladub]

The second group of Democratic presidential candidates were asked, by a show of hands, who supported giving free healthcare to illegal aliens.



“That is our direct message to the families in Central America: Do not send your children to the borders.” The US Border Patrol, he said, should be able to “stem the flow of illegal crossings and speed the return of those who do cross over….Undocumented workers broke our immigration laws, and I believe that they must be held accountable.” When Obama presented his health care plan to Congress in 2009, he specifically asserted that undocumented immigrants would not be eligible for subsidies." -President Obama in a 2014 interview with ABC News

[Zacha341]

This is but an another example of more pure FREE 'things' poli-tricks. You're WOKE if you agree.

REM level asleep, defacto racist Trumpster if you question the soundness of it all, so the absolutist narrative goes.

Daily, US citizens continue without access to mental and health care services, and for example infant mortality is high in many cities including Detroit.

Yet we have the option to provide FREE healthcare to illegals [[opps, I meant to say, eh-um migrants)?

Why has this country lost priorities; becoming so disparaging of it's own existing populations?

Is the presence of Trump worth such long term consequences?

[Richard]

To them it is worth burning the country to the ground to get to him.

Even Arnold is into the farce,while he was governor of California the illegals over citizens concept was exceptable,they are all up there with the bla bla blab.

What is even worse is the ones that have been in politics 20-30-40 years and have done nothing are all of the sudden in a position to do something?

To me anybody out of California politics that has 60,000 homeless in thier cities has no buisness dictating to the rest of the country on how things should be.

The woman crying in front of congress about the poor little drowned girl with her arms around her father is verbatim to the ambassadors daughter that was brought before Congress in tears about the poor little dead children that were yanked out of the hospitals in order to justify going to war.

[Zacha341]

Hah - The torches? LOL! It's become a 'religion' replete of non-negotiables, righteousness, with a zeal to right wrongs from the same crowd that acutely deny the construct of right and wrong......

Thus dissolving their cause in the solvent of their own ideology. Follow the contradictions and incoherence and it's a clear view...

How can a reasoned more centrist candidate be elected from this mess?

The self-loathing types included as well, putting emotion well over thinking. There'd never be 'enough' absolution or appeasement of this countries wrongs to satisfy. While other atrocities are selectively ignored. Meanwhile we're dragged along for a heck of a ride.

Bring it down BABY!! I wonder if even half of them own a passport?

As I've said before when I get into my ANGST mood -- frig-it. Open the doors wide. Free rationed health care for all [[excepting the persons/ groups conveniently exempting themselves). No borders. Free college too!

Eventually [[it may take longer than in the south, and Cali) we'll see how well that works out up here in Michigan!!

Everyone happy now!!?

To them it is worth burning the country to the ground to get to him.

[Richard]

Look at the bright side from Miami thier next stop is in Detroit,Free entertainment,Ringling could not compete when it comes to a circus.

Illegal immigration is a big issue and effecting the states of Fl,Texas and California the most,the rest of the country is not really impacted by it directly and maybe it is hard to understand the billions being spent indirectly,Kinda like if you do not see it you are not effected by it.

I was watching interviews the other night,African American southern baptist,when asked what thier priorities were in candidates and voting their response was the church.

They had heavy support for Obama because he went there and attended service verses standing outside campaigning after service.

Thier view was if he genuinely attended service then he was more apt to do the right thing as a person,that was thier steadfast belief.

Southern baptist is a powerful religion in the south and does not relate to strictly to the color of ones skin.

I was raised in religious faith but I soon found out somebody attending service on Sunday does not necessarily translate to following the practice come Monday.

Sorry,that had zero to do with the national debt unless we are going to delve into what actually creates it and it appears that a lot of it is emotionally driven verses sound economic practices.

[canuck]

To them it is worth burning the country to the ground to get to him.

Even Arnold is into the farce,while he was governor of California the illegals over citizens concept was exceptable,they are all up there with the bla bla blab.

What is even worse is the ones that have been in politics 20-30-40 years and have done nothing are all of the sudden in a position to do something?

To me anybody out of California politics that has 60,000 homeless in thier cities has no buisness dictating to the rest of the country on how things should be.

The woman crying in front of congress about the poor little drowned girl with her arms around her father is verbatim to the ambassadors daughter that was brought before Congress in tears about the poor little dead children that were yanked out of the hospitals in order to justify going to war.

Yes, 60,000 homeless out of a population of almost 40 million, and an incredibly dynamic economy can dictate a lot of things, but I am not suggesting they should. lol

[Richard]

The amount spent on homeless in San Francisco 5 million

The amount spent in San Francisco illegal defense fund only 11 million.

They find more money to defend illegals,that is only the amount spent in their defense fund and nothing else,then they can find for thier legal homeless American citizens.

Who has the priority?

No way that is a government for the people,that is a dictatorship.

[canuck]

The amount spent on homeless in San Francisco 5 million

The amount spent in San Francisco illegal defense fund only 11 million.

They find more money to defend illegals,that is only the amount spent in their defense fund and nothing else,then they can find for thier legal homeless American citizens.

Who has the priority?

No way that is a government for the people,that is a dictatorship.

So, Richard, when people voted albeit in a minority for Chump, they ended up with a dictatorship?

Are you saying California electors are deplorable?

Here is a more precise idea of how much San Francisco spends on the homeless population;

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...s-13178743.php

[Richard]

California politicians are traitors,anybody that cares about thier country and puts thier fellow Americans first is considered a deplorable.

The states paying the most to care for illegals:
1. California - $23,038,125,353
2. Texas - $10,994,614,550
3. New York - $7,489,141,357
4. Florida - $6,290,429,108
5. New Jersey - $4,466,838,574
6. Illinois - $3,220,767,517
7. Georgia - $2,487,719,503
8. North Carolina - $2,437,965,113
9. Maryland - $2,378,996,947
10. Arizona - $2,314,131,964

When federal costs are included, the price tag nationally soars to $135 billion a year.

Michigan spends $857 million which fills a lot of pot holes.The ones in the street not to be confused with the other pot aspects

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/map-illegal-immigration-costs-california-most-23b-all-states-8

San Francisco spent 250,000 in order to get 43 illegals to vote in school elections

The feds spending 46 billion on illegal immigration,that money has to come from some where and is another addition to the national debt.

They could have picked 46 cities and pumped 1 billion into their education system and had 3 year olds running around that would make Einstein look dumb.