Ilitch Parking empire expansion

[hybridy]

PUBLIC HEARING APRIL 4, 2019 at 7:30 PM

Seeking approval for a new 700-space 8-level parking deck at Motor City Casino

https://detroitmi.gov/sites/detroitmi.localhost/files/events/2019-03/DISCUSSION%202019-04-04%20730%20PM.pdf

[EGrant]

If this was posted yesterday, I would have 100% thought it was an April Fool's prank. Too ridiculous to be true.

[401don]

Business must be good but the casino revenue numbers I've seen don't warrant 700 more spaces. They must be short of spaces during peak times on a Saturday night?

[Meddle]

PUBLIC HEARING APRIL 4, 2019 at 7:30 PM

Sounds like a perfect opportunity for all y'all to let 'em have a piece of your mind.

[NSortzi]

There's already a huge 4 deck garage on that site, too. Tearing it down to double the size instead of building on an adjacent empty lot seems strange to me. And how about fulfilling your other development promises before building yet another parking garage, Ilitch family?

[Ray1936]

OK, so I'm an outsider, having abandoned Detroit in 1984 when I retired from the DPD. But it amazes me how many people on DetroitYes jump in at the slightest provocation to knock the Illitch family. For you nay-sayers, did you ever think to imagine what the City of Detroit would be like today were it not for the Illitch family?

Yeah, I'm 2k miles away. But I still hope for total rebirth. And, yes, I return every year.

[Dmberko11]

OK, so I'm an outsider, having abandoned Detroit in 1984 when I retired from the DPD. But it amazes me how many people on DetroitYes jump in at the slightest provocation to knock the Illitch family. For you nay-sayers, did you ever think to imagine what the City of Detroit would be like today were it not for the Illitch family?

Yeah, I'm 2k miles away. But I still hope for total rebirth. And, yes, I return every year.

Because they're slumlords. They get arenas built with public money based on the premise that there's gonna be ancillary development on their sea of empty lots they've been hoarding for decades with the empty promise of building arena districts. During a time when downtown is thriving, it's maddening that a family with billions is sitting on prime land to do what? Oh yeah. Put up another parking garage. And that's not even going into their track record of tearing down shit.

[JonWylie]

OK, so I'm an outsider, having abandoned Detroit in 1984 when I retired from the DPD. But it amazes me how many people on DetroitYes jump in at the slightest provocation to knock the Illitch family. For you nay-sayers, did you ever think to imagine what the City of Detroit would be like today were it not for the Illitch family?

Yeah, I'm 2k miles away. But I still hope for total rebirth. And, yes, I return every year.

Bad take. The Illitches own two sports teams and a casino. Most people would say with almost 100% certainty that those items would still exists without them and would probably be around the same locations. They may even be better integrated into the city than the casino and the two arenas are now.

They have yet to finish the world headquarters and they have yet to make good on 100's of promises.

The Fox is nice, and the gift to Wayne State is ok, but that doesn't give them any deference in most people's mind.

[hybridy]

There's already a huge 4 deck garage on that site, too. Tearing it down to double the size instead of building on an adjacent empty lot seems strange to me. And how about fulfilling your other development promises before building yet another parking garage, Ilitch family?

I think it’s pure expansion. No demolition of existing deck if I am understanding the vague project description

[NSortzi]

Because they're slumlords. They get arenas built with public money based on the premise that there's gonna be ancillary development on their sea of empty lots they've been hoarding for decades with the empty promise of building arena districts. During a time when downtown is thriving, it's maddening that a family with billions is sitting on prime land to do what? Oh yeah. Put up another parking garage. And that's not even going into their track record of tearing down shit.

Not to mention their illegal demolition of the Madison Lenox and the fact nearly every abandoned building left downtown without renovation plans is owned by them,

[Gistok]

There I fixed it, so it's easier to understand....

​"The proposed modification would permit the ADDITION of 700 new parking spaces via the construction of an eight [[8) story EXPANSION at the east end of the EXISTING parking deck erected on the property...."

[hybridy]

So 8 story deck between casino and existing deck on that tiny surface lot?

Or an 8 story partial addition onto the existing 4 story deck- making it a 12 story deck which would block the hotel tower?

Or a 4 story vertical addition on the east half existing deck bringing the new height to 8 stories? Counting spaces this seems most logical, but I digress cause that doesn’t match project description.

Mighty vague. Mighty vague indeed

[DetBill]

I tend to agree with you. The Illitches have no doubt manipulated and taken advantage of tax incentives [[ as many have ) for their more than profitable adventures, but have developed some very impressive facilities. They are business people, not a total charity, what does one expect. However, so many on here seem to have no idea what the city would be like without them. I remember living here in 1984, [[still do 35 years later, I can certify I have lived downtown through it all ) and the city was a disaster , and nobody would even look at the city, Illitch started with the Fox theater development , renovated and restored beautifully a dilapidated and water destroyed theater that finally, brought solid world class entertainement back downtown, did several other projects, waffled on several other projects, and overall was the catalyst that started any sort of rebirth that took 15 to 20 years to develop. He also built the Red Wings up, from a team of mediocre talent, to a dynasty, which not only brought a sense of pride to Detroit, as Hockeytown, but brought millions and millions of dollars into the area for the city, for himself, and for numerous other restaurants and businesses that otherwise would have collapsed. No one seems to remember there was huge pressure to move the Red Wings to the Novi area much earlier, but Illitch insisted he wanted them downtown. His families casino involvement is a big success for Detroit as well as himself, he insisted on building Comerica Park and staying downtown, so Detroit could compete with a state of the art ballpark with the other wealthier cities. I can never get over how so many on here seem to have absolutely no concept of that, it’s no secret the Illitches like to promise big developments, and the final product is never totally what they propose, but they have built some pretty dam nice facilities in town, just look at LCA. I would much rather have the new arena built , then worry about the fact that they haven’t built a couple blocks of townhouse and some retail development around it yet. The Illitches have made decisions that obviously will benefit themselves, but have most definitely benefited Detroit in a big way.The pluses, far outweigh the negatives on their projects Overall, without them, there would have been zero catalyst for development, I often doubt that even Gilbert would have cared less had it not been for the Ilitch, Penske, and Karmanos teams trying to turn Detroit around. Gilbert himself, has stated many times, that he wanted to build up upon what these individuals have done in the city, and how important every one of their non-stop investments and their loyalty to Detroit impressed him. Every one of them could have taken their material dollars to the suburbs or to another city very easily, there was always a lot of alternatives and they always picked downtown Detroit.No one else stepped up to the plate except these guys. Lets see who else comes in and duplicates or betters these accomplishments. It never hurts to acknowledge accomplishments instead of constantly looking for negatives.

[ABetterDetroit]

Well, we can cross out ‘the family is settling the estate’ excuse.

This capital expenditure sends a loud clear signal that ‘what Marian wants Marian gets’ and to hell with what her dead husband and living son promised to the residents of Detroit when taking their tax money for stadiums.

They could care less about optics obviously at this point. This makes the “Terrible Ilitches” look like they do not give a shit about their promises at all.

https://m.facebook.com/TERRIBLEILITCHES/

[Gistok]

Illitch started with the Fox theater development , renovated and restored beautifully a dilapidated and water destroyed theater that finally, brought solid world class entertainement back downtown...

Let me stop you right there.... the only problem with the Fox before the Ilitch's bought it from Chuck Forbes was that 60 years of smoke and nicotine on the ornate plasterwork, which also had some peeling paint, and worn out carpets and seating fabric was refurbished and fabrics replaced. There was NO water nor any serious plaster damage in the theatre. I was there in 1985 for an organ concert, and it looked faded, but pretty good for a theatre that was there for over 60 years at that point. The Ilitch's paid $12 million to "refurbish and polish" the world's largest surviving 1920s movie palace. By comparison the Detroit Opera House [[a smaller water damaged theatre) cost over $42 million to restore.

One theatre that was destroyed was the Adams, which was a working theatre before the Ilitch's bought it and let it literally collapse from neglect [[there was an inch of mold on all of the seats from the leaky roof). We still have that nice [[Fine Arts Bldg.) theatre facade that has been held up with scaffolding [[for 10 years now), while the rest of Grand Circus Park is being reborn.

And then there is the United Artists Theatre... the ornate plasterwork was still intact when the Ilitch's bought it. But their neglect has caused 95% of the plaster figures inside to be ripped out by scavengers, and rain coming in from gaping holes in the roof. They finally put a new roof on the theatre and secured it...but by then the very serious damage had been done, and there is very little chance that the very ornate theatre that was fondly known as "the Jewel Box" among downtown theatres will ever see a resurrection.

So the Ilitch's are definitely not the saviour of Detroit's architectural heritage.

The Ilitch's must bear the responsibility for their legacy. In 1963 as NYC's magnificent Penn Station was being pounded to rubble... the NY Times had this to say... "we will probably be remembered more for what we have destroyed, than for what we have saved". This is deja vu for the Ilitch's.

[Gistok]

One other thing about the Fox... the world's only surviving original theatre lobby organ [[the Moller) is not now in working order. And the grand 4/36 Wurlizer in the auditorium [[largest original theatre organ in the world) is on its' last leg. Apparently the Ilitch's are even too cheap to have them fixed. I hope they're not waiting for more public money.

[Gistok]

For all the Ilitch fans... something to think about...

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...xQUcP2zEteXyBU

[Honky Tonk]

I tend to agree with you. The Illitches have no doubt manipulated and taken advantage of tax incentives [[ as many have ) for their more than profitable adventures, but have developed some very impressive facilities. They are business people, not a total charity, what does one expect. However, so many on here seem to have no idea what the city would be like without them. I remember living here in 1984, [[still do 35 years later, I can certify I have lived downtown through it all ) and the city was a disaster , and nobody would even look at the city, Illitch started with the Fox theater development , renovated and restored beautifully a dilapidated and water destroyed theater that finally, brought solid world class entertainement back downtown, did several other projects, waffled on several other projects, and overall was the catalyst that started any sort of rebirth that took 15 to 20 years to develop. He also built the Red Wings up, from a team of mediocre talent, to a dynasty, which not only brought a sense of pride to Detroit, as Hockeytown, but brought millions and millions of dollars into the area for the city, for himself, and for numerous other restaurants and businesses that otherwise would have collapsed. No one seems to remember there was huge pressure to move the Red Wings to the Novi area much earlier, but Illitch insisted he wanted them downtown. His families casino involvement is a big success for Detroit as well as himself, he insisted on building Comerica Park and staying downtown, so Detroit could compete with a state of the art ballpark with the other wealthier cities. I can never get over how so many on here seem to have absolutely no concept of that, it’s no secret the Illitches like to promise big developments, and the final product is never totally what they propose, but they have built some pretty dam nice facilities in town, just look at LCA. I would much rather have the new arena built , then worry about the fact that they haven’t built a couple blocks of townhouse and some retail development around it yet. The Illitches have made decisions that obviously will benefit themselves, but have most definitely benefited Detroit in a big way.The pluses, far outweigh the negatives on their projects Overall, without them, there would have been zero catalyst for development, I often doubt that even Gilbert would have cared less had it not been for the Ilitch, Penske, and Karmanos teams trying to turn Detroit around. Gilbert himself, has stated many times, that he wanted to build up upon what these individuals have done in the city, and how important every one of their non-stop investments and their loyalty to Detroit impressed him. Every one of them could have taken their material dollars to the suburbs or to another city very easily, there was always a lot of alternatives and they always picked downtown Detroit.No one else stepped up to the plate except these guys. Lets see who else comes in and duplicates or betters these accomplishments. It never hurts to acknowledge accomplishments instead of constantly looking for negatives.

Question: Did you transcribe the press release you were given, or just copy and paste?

[EGrant]

I would much rather have the new arena built , then worry about the fact that they haven’t built a couple blocks of townhouse and some retail development around it yet.

Olympia didn't just promise a few townhomes and retail, they promised massive swaths of development. They even branded entire neighborhoods [[five, I think?) of development and renovation around the arena, Comerica Park and Foxtown. And they've completed almost none of it.

And personal opinion, the new arena is nice because it's new, but it isn't a great place to see a game, especially if you can't afford the ridiculous and perpetually empty club seats in the lower bowl. It was built with corporate $$$ in mind, not the fans.

[401don]

Well Ray, you certainly scratched a sore wound. Like many forumers here, I tried to justify or make excuses for the Ilitches for several years, usually due to a poor economy, etc. But it's the outright lies in recent years that is so infuriating. They've switched from vague promises to public press conferences, announcing grand developments that clearly there was no intention of following through upon. If they legitimately must cancel a proposed hotel, apartment, retail, retaurant, etc they owe it to the public to explain why, although the numbers of these cancellations in recent years has become so laughable that nothing they say can be taken seriously anymore.

[Richard]

Business must be good but the casino revenue numbers I've seen don't warrant 700 more spaces. They must be short of spaces during peak times on a Saturday night?

Maybe it is a marketing ploy of sorts,Park your car there and take a shuttle to the game,when you come back,as long as you are there it is convenient to drop in and try your luck in the casino.

[mwilbert]

The only think I can think of the the Illitches have done that anybody else would not have done is the renovation of the Fox, which as Gistok points out was not a complete rescue, but I think we can legitimately say that theatre might well not be in the condition it is in without them. Mike Illitch also spent more on players for his teams to make them contenders than some other owners [[like his heirs) might have.

But the other stuff is either bad or something anyone else would do. Is it really unusual for sports team owners to build stadia with large public subsidies? They have overpromised and underdelivered on their projects for decades, while blighting vast areas through demolition by neglect, and converting viable buildings into surface parking.

So no, I'm not really feeling the love. That said, I don't see why they shouldn't build a bigger garage at their casino.

[LongGone06]

Most people would say with almost 100% certainty that those items would still exists without them and would probably be around the same locations.

Have to disagree with you there, JonWylie. There is absolutely no reason to believe the baseball stadium would have ended up in its current location had Ilitch not stuck a flag in the ground at the Fox; and even less likely Ford Field would exist. The conventional thinking in the late 80's was that any new baseball stadium would be somewhere off of I-275 near Plymouth.

Anyone who spent considerable time in the Fox Theater area prior to the renovation should remember it as dead or dying. Aside from the occasional concert at the State [[Fillmore), DCL, a significantly different Elwood than the one we know today, and the YMCA [[which, as I recall, was also a half-way house), there was nothing there [[unless you count the Coney Hut on Adams). I don't recall if the YWCA was still in operation.

Don't get me wrong, the Ilitch's deserve criticism for their myopic view of preservation and penchant for surface parking; but, I don't think you can assume that area would be active today had it not been for the renovation of the Fox and Little Caesar's relocation.

[gnome]

One good act should not give anyone a free pass to egregious violations of the public trust.

[iheartthed]

I preferred the baseball stadium where it was at before.