Impact of Delta hub on Metro Detroit?

[MrNittany]

The Delta Hub is definitely a net positive for Detroit, but there are some things that are individually bad about it.

Positives:

1. Helps the economy at the local level. Many connecting [[routes like St Louis-Detroit-Portland, Maine) will buy things during their 1-hour or so layover at DTW.

2. Also helps the economy at the more-macro level. When your city is more connected and easier to get to, businesses are more likely to set up shop there, and other folk are more likely to visit.

3. The Detroit-based flyer can get to basically every Tier-1 and Tier-2 US city non-stop. You can't fly direct to the likes of San Diego, Portland OR, OKC, Memphis, Omaha, Greensboro, Charleston SC and Jacksonville from every other non-Chicago Midwest city. But you can from DTW. Very convenient for business travelers, where time is money.

4. Higher frequency as well. Non-Chicago Midwest cities have their daily non-stops to places like LA and San Francisco. But it's typically only 1-2 per day. Certainly not 6 of them. Delta from DTW does.

5. Higher availability to "second-tier airports within a huge Metro area." Every Midwest city has a flight to NYC. But it's only LGA, JFK or Newark. What if my business is actually in Westchester or Fairfield County, Connecticut? I can avoid those 3 airports and fly into White Plains. Considerably better. No other non-Chicago Midwest city connects to White Plains. Ditto for Manchester, NH [[Boston), Orange County [[LA) and Allentown [[viable for portions of North Philly or Northern NJ).

6. Every airport out there charges landing fees for every flight. DTW as a hub gets a whole lot of flights - thus, they can get a whole lot of revenue even if their "landing fee per flight" is relatively low. That helps fund large-scale airport projects.

Negatives:

1. A degree of "loyalty without a choice." If I am flying DTW-OKC and I'm time-sensitive, well, I'm very very very likely to take that direct flight. Delta faces no competition there. If I live in Cincinnati and flying to OKC - there is no direct flight. So I'm connecting somewhere. That's adds more time but it does add more options. All of AA, Delta, United and Southwest will have viable connection options, so I really have 4 choices instead of 1.

2. Per the above, Delta knows they have pricing power in the Detroit market, and they leverage that. In the aggregate, Detroit travelers will pay a premium for all those non-stops available. Passengers pay more in hub cities, that is a proven fact. Delta really took advantage of Cincinnati residents when they had a hub down there.

3. Travelers who don't like regional jets - well, hubs tend to have a fair amount of them. Primarily for the smaller cities that are part of the network. But they will also show up for bigger cities [[e.g., if Delta flies to LaGuardia 8 times a day, a regional jet may be for 1-2 of those flights. Delta may be providing that 12 Noon flight, and having that frequency is great. But they also know that some times are considerably less busy than others).

4. The bigger and busier the airport, generally the more a PITA it is to get in and out [[security, parking, rental car et cetera). Outside of the rental car situation, I think DTW fares pretty well here. But this is a thing.

[iheartthed]

2. Per the above, Delta knows they have pricing power in the Detroit market, and they leverage that. In the aggregate, Detroit travelers will pay a premium for all those non-stops available. Passengers pay more in hub cities, that is a proven fact. Delta really took advantage of Cincinnati residents when they had a hub down there.

Do you mean single-hub cities pay more? I think travelers from multi-hub cities, like NY, Chicago, LA, pay less than people do in Detroit or Atlanta for direct flights.

[313WX]

Fortress hubs like DTW lack competition from rival airlines, which allows the dominate airline to charge higher prices with little reprecussion.

The benefit to being near a hub airport is not lower cost, but rather better flight connectivity.

[MrNittany]

Do you mean single-hub cities pay more? I think travelers from multi-hub cities, like NY, Chicago, LA, pay less than people do in Detroit or Atlanta for direct flights.

Yes, my bad. Saying "single-hub cities" is more correct. When it comes to price, NYC, Chicago & LA originating travelers benefit from the immense size of the Metro region - so large that multiple airlines can have profitable hub/focus city operations.

[bust]

Fortress hubs like DTW lack competition from rival airlines, which allows the dominate airline to charge higher prices with little reprecussion.

The benefit to being near a hub airport is not lower cost

Yes, far from it. Prices are shockingly more expensive than where airlines face more competition.

...but rather better flight connectivity.

Yet, in Detroit's case, that mostly applies to domestic flights. International options are fairly paltry. And Delta has been decreasing, not increasing international service out of DTW lately.

Here's hoping DTW attracts more airlines-- without Delta further reducing options.

Would love were City modernized too.

[313WX]

Yes, far from it. Prices are shockingly more expensive than where airlines face more competition.



Yet, in Detroit's case, that mostly applies to domestic flights. International options are fairly paltry. And Delta has been decreasing, not increasing international service out of DTW lately.

Here's hoping DTW attracts more airlines-- without Delta further reducing options.

Would love were City modernized too.

Well with the Big 3 automakers [[especially GM) having basically exited the world, that's to be expected.

[Atticus]

Delta is resuming Saturday only DTW-San Juan fights this winter starting on December 21. Many of the airlines cut back on their Puerto Rico flights following the hurricane, so it has been a few years since this route was flown direct from DTW. None of the news outlets picked up on it, but it is nice to see this flight return for both the people of Detroit and Puerto Rico.

[MrNittany]

Yet, in Detroit's case, that mostly applies to domestic flights. International options are fairly paltry. And Delta has been decreasing, not increasing international service out of DTW lately.

I always hear this - but is it really true?

Typical day at DTW [[Europe):
4 flights to Amsterdam
3 flights to Paris [[2 Delta, 1 Air France)
2 flights to Frankfurt [[1 Delta, 1 Lufthansa)
1 flight to each of Heathrow, Munich, Rome
Possibly [[depends on day of week) a flight to Amman, Jordan

Typical day at DTW [[Asia):
1 flight to each of Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul, Shanghai
Possibly [[depends on day of week) a flight to Nagoya

Typical day at DTW [[Western Hemisphere x Canada and USA):
2 flights to Mexico City [[1 Delta, 1 Aeromexico)
A handful of other flights to 2nd-tier Mexican cities

That's a dozen non-stop flights a day to Europe, and 4-5 a day to Asia. All into major-league hub airports. 2 a day into the Western Hemisphere's biggest hub airport located south of the USA. Connections to India are a weakness for DTW, but otherwise, there's no 1st-tier or 2nd-tier city in the world that you can't get to from DTW via a 1-stop connection.

Yes, Delta cut the direct flight to Sao Paulo but that was a very niche flight anyway.

There are issues, admittedly. The big issues are [[1) lack of a OneWorld flight to Europe [[British Airways to LHR would solve this, if that rumor ever comes to fruition), such that all 3 alliances have European flights from DTW. And [[2) all the Asian non-stops are within one alliance [[SkyTeam).

But benchmark that against:

[[A) Issue #2 above is also the case for places like Atlanta, MSP and Denver. You have to really be a big-league city [[or a west coast city) to get multiple alliance flights to Asia. And Detroit is what it is: a tier below the true big-league American cities.

[[B) Denver and MSP [[reasonable peers for Detroit) don't have direct European flights on all 3 alliances either [[although Delta starting DEN-AMS is a rumor).

[[C) The entire state of Ohio has 1 non-stop flight to Europe a day! Delta's CVG-Paris flight. Technically, that flight leaves from Kentucky anyway.

[[D) Some think it is bad that DTW doesn't have any of Turkish, Emirates, Ethiad or Qatar. But Royal Jordanian sort of serves that role as is. If one of those 3 ever came in, it would likely eventually be a net zero [[Royal Jordanian leaving).

[iheartthed]

I always hear this - but is it really true?

Typical day at DTW [[Europe):
4 flights to Amsterdam
3 flights to Paris [[2 Delta, 1 Air France)
2 flights to Frankfurt [[1 Delta, 1 Lufthansa)
1 flight to each of Heathrow, Munich, Rome
Possibly [[depends on day of week) a flight to Amman, Jordan

Typical day at DTW [[Asia):
1 flight to each of Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul, Shanghai
Possibly [[depends on day of week) a flight to Nagoya

Typical day at DTW [[Western Hemisphere x Canada and USA):
2 flights to Mexico City [[1 Delta, 1 Aeromexico)
A handful of other flights to 2nd-tier Mexican cities

That's a dozen non-stop flights a day to Europe, and 4-5 a day to Asia. All into major-league hub airports. 2 a day into the Western Hemisphere's biggest hub airport located south of the USA. Connections to India are a weakness for DTW, but otherwise, there's no 1st-tier or 2nd-tier city in the world that you can't get to from DTW via a 1-stop connection.

Yes, Delta cut the direct flight to Sao Paulo but that was a very niche flight anyway.

There are issues, admittedly. The big issues are [[1) lack of a OneWorld flight to Europe [[British Airways to LHR would solve this, if that rumor ever comes to fruition), such that all 3 alliances have European flights from DTW. And [[2) all the Asian non-stops are within one alliance [[SkyTeam).

But benchmark that against:

[[A) Issue #2 above is also the case for places like Atlanta, MSP and Denver. You have to really be a big-league city [[or a west coast city) to get multiple alliance flights to Asia. And Detroit is what it is: a tier below the true big-league American cities.

[[B) Denver and MSP [[reasonable peers for Detroit) don't have direct European flights on all 3 alliances either [[although Delta starting DEN-AMS is a rumor).

[[C) The entire state of Ohio has 1 non-stop flight to Europe a day! Delta's CVG-Paris flight. Technically, that flight leaves from Kentucky anyway.

[[D) Some think it is bad that DTW doesn't have any of Turkish, Emirates, Ethiad or Qatar. But Royal Jordanian sort of serves that role as is. If one of those 3 ever came in, it would likely eventually be a net zero [[Royal Jordanian leaving).

Yeah, I wasn't going to go through the research, but I know from traveling for a living that DTW is hardly an airport that is deprived of direct international routes. It may actually be an airport that punches above its weight in that category, thanks to Delta and the NWA legacy. Places like LAX, O'Hare, ATL, and JFK, will obviously dwarf DTW, but those are the biggest of the big airports.

Airports in smaller cities that see more passenger traffic than DTW, such as Denver or Charlotte, fly pretty much only to domestic destinations. According to Wikipedia, Denver has one regular flight to Tokyo, and one seasonal flight to London. Charlotte has a regular flight to London, and a seasonal to Paris. But Detroit performs about average to above average for a 4M-5M person region.

[Atticus]

I always hear this - but is it really true?

Typical day at DTW [[Europe):
4 flights to Amsterdam
3 flights to Paris [[2 Delta, 1 Air France)
2 flights to Frankfurt [[1 Delta, 1 Lufthansa)
1 flight to each of Heathrow, Munich, Rome
Possibly [[depends on day of week) a flight to Amman, Jordan

Typical day at DTW [[Asia):
1 flight to each of Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul, Shanghai
Possibly [[depends on day of week) a flight to Nagoya

Typical day at DTW [[Western Hemisphere x Canada and USA):
2 flights to Mexico City [[1 Delta, 1 Aeromexico)
A handful of other flights to 2nd-tier Mexican cities

That's a dozen non-stop flights a day to Europe, and 4-5 a day to Asia. All into major-league hub airports. 2 a day into the Western Hemisphere's biggest hub airport located south of the USA. Connections to India are a weakness for DTW, but otherwise, there's no 1st-tier or 2nd-tier city in the world that you can't get to from DTW via a 1-stop connection.

Yes, Delta cut the direct flight to Sao Paulo but that was a very niche flight anyway.

There are issues, admittedly. The big issues are [[1) lack of a OneWorld flight to Europe [[British Airways to LHR would solve this, if that rumor ever comes to fruition), such that all 3 alliances have European flights from DTW. And [[2) all the Asian non-stops are within one alliance [[SkyTeam).

But benchmark that against:

[[A) Issue #2 above is also the case for places like Atlanta, MSP and Denver. You have to really be a big-league city [[or a west coast city) to get multiple alliance flights to Asia. And Detroit is what it is: a tier below the true big-league American cities.

[[B) Denver and MSP [[reasonable peers for Detroit) don't have direct European flights on all 3 alliances either [[although Delta starting DEN-AMS is a rumor).

[[C) The entire state of Ohio has 1 non-stop flight to Europe a day! Delta's CVG-Paris flight. Technically, that flight leaves from Kentucky anyway.

[[D) Some think it is bad that DTW doesn't have any of Turkish, Emirates, Ethiad or Qatar. But Royal Jordanian sort of serves that role as is. If one of those 3 ever came in, it would likely eventually be a net zero [[Royal Jordanian leaving).

This is a good synopsis. However, it is worth pointing out that even the peer cities you listed [[DEN, MSP) have at least two low cost carriers serving transatlantic routes [[Aer Lingus, Nowegian, Icelandair), where as DTW has none. That goes along way in providing local customers with a more affordable ticket to Europe, albeit with more fees and less creature comforts.

While DTW does have some flights to Caribbean destinations, it is also below its weight in that regard compared to other peer city's airports as well. I think Delta serves DTW very well on the European front, but has room to grow in the Caribbean and Mexico beach markets. There is also surprisingly very little Canadian service, despite Detroit being a border city.

[iheartthed]

This is a good synopsis. However, it is worth pointing out that even the peer cities you listed [[DEN, MSP) have at least two low cost carriers serving transatlantic routes [[Aer Lingus, Nowegian, Icelandair), where as DTW has none. That goes along way in providing local customers with a more affordable ticket to Europe, albeit with more fees and less creature comforts.

Aer Lingus doesn't start service to MSP until June. And WOW flew to Detroit before it went bankrupt last month. On the other hand, Lufthansa flies to Detroit and doesn't fly to MSP. Lufthansa does fly to Denver, but Denver is a Star Alliance hub so that would be expected.

From what I can see on the three airports Wikipedia pages, Detroit has the most overseas destinations.

[MrNittany]

This is a good synopsis. However, it is worth pointing out that even the peer cities you listed [[DEN, MSP) have at least two low cost carriers serving transatlantic routes [[Aer Lingus, Nowegian, Icelandair), where as DTW has none. That goes along way in providing local customers with a more affordable ticket to Europe, albeit with more fees and less creature comforts.

While DTW does have some flights to Caribbean destinations, it is also below its weight in that regard compared to other peer city's airports as well. I think Delta serves DTW very well on the European front, but has room to grow in the Caribbean and Mexico beach markets. There is also surprisingly very little Canadian service, despite Detroit being a border city.

Very good point on the European low-cost carriers. WOW filled that role up until a month ago, of course. There's a vacuum there for the time being.

Canada - you're right there too. Intuitively, it seems like London [[Ontario), Quebec City, Halifax and Calgary would be fairly low-hanging fruit opportunities. Especially given Delta's joint-venture with WestJet. I'd guess the lack of pre-clearance at 3 of those airports [[Calgary has it, Quebec supposedly is getting it but they said that 5 years ago too) is a limiting factor.

[Meddle]

Y'all must be talking about a different Metro than the one I remember. I hated that place with a passion. Miserable to get in and out of let alone try to park on site and wait for a shuttle bus. The offsite lots were better, slightly.

I used to drive to Chicago so I didn't have to suffer the hell I knew as Metro.

That place was a factor in my personal decision to never fly again.

[swingline]

Y'all must be talking about a different Metro than the one I remember. I hated that place with a passion. Miserable to get in and out of let alone try to park on site and wait for a shuttle bus. The offsite lots were better, slightly.

I used to drive to Chicago so I didn't have to suffer the hell I knew as Metro.

That place was a factor in my personal decision to never fly again.

DTW ranks 3rd in passenger satisfaction among large North American airports. https://www.freep.com/story/travel/m...ng/1355932002/ Have you flown out of the airport in the last decade and a half?

[iheartthed]

Y'all must be talking about a different Metro than the one I remember. I hated that place with a passion. Miserable to get in and out of let alone try to park on site and wait for a shuttle bus. The offsite lots were better, slightly.

I used to drive to Chicago so I didn't have to suffer the hell I knew as Metro.

That place was a factor in my personal decision to never fly again.

You must not have been there in the past 20 years? It's seriously one of the best airport experiences in the country.

[scooter]

Hello Delta still has a hub in Cinci" its airport code is cvg
I fly it every three months in fact I came back two weeks
ago, yes it right there across the river in KY

[313WX]

Hello Delta still has a hub in Cinci" its airport code is cvg
I fly it every three months in fact I came back two weeks
ago, yes it right there across the river in KY

Cincinnati is only a focus city, which in comparison to hubs have limited point-to-point routes thus doesn't cater to connecting passengers.

https://www.ajc.com/business/hub-cha...6VXNnC7q0AZzO/

[Detroitdave]

I fly in and out of DTW a couple times in the year and I use to think the same thing ," why do I have to go downstairs to get my bags then go back out 3 floors to cross over 3 lanes of traffic to go back downstairs to get a shuttle?"
Actually it started making sense, it really cuts down on the traffic right out side the doors.
If you think about it, when you grab your bags and leave the airport, it's a nightmare once you step outside. LAX is a prefect example. LAX is like times square once you step outside. total chaos! Shuttle buses competing with taxis and people trying to passengers .
DTW is much more organized , I've never seen the crazy crowds of other cities.

Agree. DTW biggest problem is the awful design on the ground transportation side, rental car facilities, and lack of transit options to downtown.

Basically from ticket counter to baggage claim, there isn’t a better airport in the country than DTW. But for someone from out of town,getting from the baggage claim to a rental car or to the city center is a giant pain compared to the majority of other mid to large sized airports in this country.

It would be easy enough to build a nice consolidated rental car garage somewhere, paid for by a modest rental car tax that no one would notice. But transit is a much tougher problem to address and pay for. Uber/Lyft have made the lack of airport transit less of an issue to the out of town visitor... but if you are paying your own way from the terminal to the city, you quickly learn that taxis aren’t cheap, and the Fast bus isn’t really fast [[just faster than what was there before).

[Atticus]

https://www.regulations.gov/document...2019-0014-0079

The US DOT is [[tentatively, soon to be permanent) awarding Delta a daily flight between DTW and Tokyo-Haneda Airport [[located near the city center). Currently Delta flies daily between DTW and Tokyo-Narita airport, which is located far outside of Tokyo.

This is a big win for Delta travelers going to Tokyo from Detroit, as they won’t have to endure a long train ride to get into central Tokyo from the distant Narita airport once this flight begins. All indications are that the Haneda flight will simply replace the Narita flight, so there will still just be the one daily flight to Tokyo. But just the same, another benefit of having the Delta hub is the opportunity for DTW to pick up a flight like this.

[Király]

Agree. DTW biggest problem is the awful design on the ground transportation side, rental car facilities, and lack of transit options to downtown.

Detroit is not exactly a tourist hub, visitors to the city are going to be either visiting family or on business. People visiting family aren't going be going directly downtown in any significant numbers, and even business travelers aren't nearly as likely to be going straight downtown as business travelers to other cities—they'll be going all over the region.

The big exception is people who visit the city for sporting events, who will head straight downtown from the airport. But how big can even this chunk of people be.

This is always going to make demand for quick and affordable mass transit between DTW and downtown light enough for it to be unviable.

[313WX]

Detroit is not exactly a tourist hub, visitors to the city are going to be either visiting family or on business. People visiting family aren't going be going directly downtown in any significant numbers, and even business travelers aren't nearly as likely to be going straight downtown as business travelers to other cities—they'll be going all over the region.

The big exception is people who visit the city for sporting events, who will head straight downtown from the airport. But how big can even this chunk of people be.

This is always going to make demand for quick and affordable mass transit between DTW and downtown light enough for it to be unviable.

All fair points.

That being said, when I recently flew out of DTW and got to the rental car lot to drop off my vehicle, apparently all of the drivers went on a scheduled break and no buses were running for a good 20 minutes [[you can see all of them just sitting in parking spaces across the lot doing nothing). I almost ended up missing my flight because of this, although fortunately there was literally no one waiting in the TSA or baggage claim lines.

We can debate the cost vs. benefits of transit to/from the airport all day, but to completely shut down what little ground transportation you have for 20+ minutes [[at a busy international hub) is plain poor management. The break time for these drivers should be staggered so that passengers aren't waiting extended periods of time with no warning or apology.

[iheartthed]

Detroit is not exactly a tourist hub, visitors to the city are going to be either visiting family or on business. People visiting family aren't going be going directly downtown in any significant numbers, and even business travelers aren't nearly as likely to be going straight downtown as business travelers to other cities—they'll be going all over the region.

The big exception is people who visit the city for sporting events, who will head straight downtown from the airport. But how big can even this chunk of people be.

This is always going to make demand for quick and affordable mass transit between DTW and downtown light enough for it to be unviable.

Conferences and conventions

[Atticus]

Conferences and conventions

Exactly. And downtown residents who don’t own cars. Now, likely many of the above can afford [[or get reimbursed) for taking an Uber to DTW, but a good and reliable transit option would make the region look much more business friendly.

[MrNittany]

All fair points.
We can debate the cost vs. benefits of transit to/from the airport all day, but to completely shut down what little ground transportation you have for 20+ minutes [[at a busy international hub) is plain poor management. The break time for these drivers should be staggered so that passengers aren't waiting extended periods of time with no warning or apology.

Yeah - the "uneven-ness" as regards DTW's car rental times are a big problem.

I travel a good bit. There are several airports that have LONG times between the car rental place and the terminal. Atlanta, Cleveland, DFW, Denver, Phoenix, SFO. But they're all predictably long. You can plan for it. The bus [[or train) is always there, it just takes awhile.

DTW is like flipping a coin. 10 or 40 minutes, who knows? Only LGA is comparable in that regard.