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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    Except Oakland isn't more sprawly or unsustainable than the other Metro Detroit counties.

    I think a pretty strong argument can be made that Oakland is, in fact, more walkable, urban and transit oriented than its suburban equivalents. Western Wayne and Macomb are generally more oriented towards endless monotonous sprawlscapes, though some of that has to do with flatter topography and fewer lakes.

    Most of the desirable, semi-walkable, quasi-urban geographies of Metro Detroit are in Oakland.
    Yeah, my argument still stands. He loves it all and is the only true way he's a regional partner is when he's spewing shit about sprawl for everyone. LBP's voter base is in places like Clarkston, Oakland Township, Rochester Hills, Orion Township, Lyon Township, Waterford, White Lake, Highland Township, and Commerce all of which have become exurban wastelands of cars, strip malls, and industrial parks. Sure, their population has boomed but only because people from a different part of the region or county decided to move there; not because there's any true immigration into the Detroit area. All of this further building of infrastructure comes at a price to all of us.
    Last edited by dtowncitylover; March-28-19 at 11:53 AM.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtowncitylover View Post
    We can talk about his fetish with unsustainable urban sprawl as well if you like.
    'Unsustainable growth' seems like it 'sustained' quite well. And as other said, OC's walkable communities are among the best. Don't get the problem here.

    Wishing you well, LBP.
    Last edited by Wesley Mouch; March-28-19 at 12:34 PM. Reason: simplify, after reading further posts

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    'Unsustainable growth' seems like it 'sustained' quite well. And as other said, OC's walkable communities are among the best. Don't get the problem here.
    Growth in wages and property values in Oakland County have not kept pace with other areas of the country.
    Last edited by iheartthed; March-28-19 at 01:33 PM.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    'Unsustainable growth' seems like it 'sustained' quite well. And as other said, OC's walkable communities are among the best. Don't get the problem here.

    Wishing you well, LBP.
    So we have no road problem? We keep building said roads and they keep crumbling and "need widening" and that's all hunky-dory, eh?

  5. #55

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    I pray for L Brooks Patterson. I never wished cancer on my worst enemy. I know how his attitude and beliefs had been toward Detroiters but he still is human and is going through a difficult time in his life

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by stasu1213 View Post
    I pray for L Brooks Patterson. I never wished cancer on my worst enemy. I know how his attitude and beliefs had been toward Detroiters but he still is human and is going through a difficult time in his life
    Amen. All enmity should cease at grave disability or death. Time to move on.

    So what will happen if L Brooks is unable to serve out his term?

    "If a vacancy were to occur, Chief Deputy County Executive Gerald Poisson would serve as executive until the board appointed a successor. If the board did not do so within 30 days, a special election would be held at a later date." source

    That would be a Democrat. One of the big stories of the 2018 elections was that the Dems took control of the Oakland County Board of Commissioners for the first time in forever. David Woodward and Andy Meisner are considered the top contenders there.

    Whoever would be chosen would come into the next elections with a big name recognition advantage in a County that has steadily been moving left.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    Growth in wages and property values in Oakland County have not kept pace with other areas of the country.
    But that's because this is the Rust Belt, and Oakland has the same auto-based economy as the rest of Detroit. Why would Oakland be compared to Silicon Valley?

    The fact is that Oakland has outperfomed Wayne and Macomb for the last 50 years, and the gap is growing. Oakland is the state's economic and wealth engine.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowell View Post
    Whoever would be chosen would come into the next elections with a big name recognition advantage in a County that has steadily been moving left.
    I'm not sure if Oakland "has steadily been moving more left". Republicans, on a national level, are vastly more reactionary than in, say, the Nixon-Ford-Reagan-Bush years. And, more recently, they have become vastly more populist.

    I think it's more accurate to say that the Republican party abandoned the upper middle class suburban voter. It isn't like Bloomfield and Novi are full of a bunch of leftist, AOC worshipping socialists. It's that they don't identify with Trumpism and populism.

    This is a massive generalization, but the Republican party from WW2 to about 2000 primarily served upper class professionals. The party has since transitioned to serving a rural and exurban white working class base.
    Last edited by Bham1982; March-29-19 at 09:29 AM.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    The fact is that Oakland has outperfomed Wayne and Macomb for the last 50 years, and the gap is growing. Oakland is the state's economic and wealth engine.
    And it's done a very terrible job, which is my point. When Detroit was the "economic and wealth engine" of the region, it was one of the richest regions in the world. When Oakland County became the "economic and wealth engine" it has nearly faded into being a backwater.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    The fact is that Oakland has outperfomed (sic) Wayne and Macomb for the last 50 years, and the gap is growing. Oakland is the state's economic and wealth engine.
    Yeah and that's not a good thing. An engine is only as good as the machine it's trying to run. So far, Detroit, the region, and the state have fallen in many metrics. So Oakland became the new engine, over time and slowly with the demise of the city, and instead of working cooperatively with the other parts in the machine, it basically decided to work for itself at the detriment of the 8 million other residents.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    And it's done a very terrible job, which is my point. When Detroit was the "economic and wealth engine" of the region, it was one of the richest regions in the world. When Oakland County became the "economic and wealth engine" it has nearly faded into being a backwater.
    So you believe that the loss of the auto industry's hegemonic domination is due to the transfer of wealth/prosperity to the suburbs? If only Mary Barra were living in Boston Edison instead of Northville Township, the region would be wealthier? Absurd.

    The region was still one of the wealthiest on earth well into the 1970's, when Detroit was already pretty much sunk. The region's wealth had already shifted north/west. The issues with the auto industry aren't related to regional residential desirability.

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    So you believe that the loss of the auto industry's hegemonic domination is due to the transfer of wealth/prosperity to the suburbs? If only Mary Barra were living in Boston Edison instead of Northville Township, the region would be wealthier? Absurd.
    Nope. What was lost in Detroit's suburbanization was the dynamism of the economy. Sacrificing the urban center hindered the region's ability to spur other industries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    The region was still one of the wealthiest on earth well into the 1970's, when Detroit was already pretty much sunk. The region's wealth had already shifted north/west. The issues with the auto industry aren't related to regional residential desirability.
    Metro Detroit was well into relative decline by then. The tri-county area has not added population since the 1960s, which is the tell-tale sign of economic stagnation.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    Nope. What was lost in Detroit's suburbanization was the dynamism of the economy. Sacrificing the urban center hindered the region's ability to spur other industries.
    You do realize that Silicon Valley, easily the most innovative economic center on the planet, is basically nothing but hellish sprawl, right? Have you been to Cupertino or Sunnyvale?

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    Metro Detroit was well into relative decline by then. The tri-county area has not added population since the 1960s, which is the tell-tale sign of economic stagnation.
    No. The auto industry was at its absolute peak in the 1960's, concurrent with the greatest period of suburbanization and sprawl. The region was among the wealthiest on earth long after Detroit had lost its in-town wealth and core vitality.

  14. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    You do realize that Silicon Valley, easily the most innovative economic center on the planet, is basically nothing but hellish sprawl, right? Have you been to Cupertino or Sunnyvale?
    Most of the current wave of unicorn IPOs are based in San Francisco, or other urban centers. Even the prestigious Y Combinator accelerator has relocated to San Francisco from Silicon Valley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    No. The auto industry was at its absolute peak in the 1960's, concurrent with the greatest period of suburbanization and sprawl. The region was among the wealthiest on earth long after Detroit had lost its in-town wealth and core vitality.
    This does not at all contradict my point.

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    Nope. What was lost in Detroit's suburbanization was the dynamism of the economy. Sacrificing the urban center hindered the region's ability to spur other industries.
    ...
    Metro Detroit was well into relative decline by then. The tri-county area has not added population since the 1960s, which is the tell-tale sign of economic stagnation.
    Get your point that suburbanization was a mixed bag, and not done as well as it could have been.

    Less with you that this has anything to do with OC and its current state.

    Given that we are part of America. Part of the rust belt. The home of a very cyclical and international auto industry. And a city/region with a history of racial oppression (see Ossian Sweet, redlining, school bussing, DPD pre-CAY, race riots, and liberal pity socialism). That all is the hand we've been dealt.

    OC played that hand as well as it could be played, IMO. LBP managed the game well. He was the equal but opposite force to CAY. Probably just as great in his own different way. He didn't accept CAY's BS. He challenged him. Stood his ground. Didn't talk nice back. Good for him.

    More I think of it, LBP and CAY were 'proto Trumps'!

    (Wanted to write about CAY/LBP boxing challenges and Trump's WWE challenges, but couldn't find much about it on the web. Can anyone refresh us on the great story here?)

  16. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    The region was still one of the wealthiest on earth well into the 1970's, when Detroit was already pretty much sunk. The region's wealth had already shifted north/west. The issues with the auto industry aren't related to regional residential desirability.
    I think the larger problem is that the region is idling in the 1970's. Oakland County is by and large a fine place, but it has fallen from its spot as 4th wealthiest in the 1990s to somewhere in the 20s. Macomb and Wayne are, by and large, undesirable except for a few pockets.

    I think the housing values are a good indicator. Housing is ridiculously cheap in virtually every part of Oakland County. For what we paid in Ann Arbor, we could have had some starter castle in whatever township, but like everyone else we know, it isn't a place we would want to live. I mean, if I were a 65-year-old and this were 1994, maybe, I guess. What you pay in OC wouldn't get you a shitty condo in the Bronx or even much, if anything, in Chicagoland.

    Educational attainment in the Metro is below the national average, too. Of course, any changes that are happening with rideshares and self-driving vehicles - likely the future of automotives, happened, predictably, outside the moribund Detroit auto industry. Too many stupid people can be problematic.

    Big picture, if a lot of things - leadership, sprawl, infrastructure, greenspace, education - and yes, probably transit - were done differently, Metro Detroit maybe could have turned out differently. But other than the renewed interest in Detroit and the Woodward Corridor, the tri-county metro is a pretty sad place compared to comparably-populated national metros.

    Was LBP a contributor to that? Yeah, probably. I think he was penny-wise and pound-foolish in Oakland. But I still wish him well.
    Last edited by poobert; March-29-19 at 05:45 PM.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by poobert View Post
    I think the housing values are a good indicator. Housing is ridiculously cheap in virtually every part of Oakland County.
    What? Granted, "ridiculously cheap" is subjective, but the wealthiest parts of Oakland County have the most expensive real estate between NYC and Chicago. Ann Arbor is much cheaper than Birmingham.

    You cannot easily get a 4 bedroom house in move-in condition in any higher-end Oakland suburb for less than 500k, plus high taxes. I wouldn't call that "ridiculously cheap" by Michigan standards.

    In new construction McMansion areas in say, Northville/Novi/Rochester, you're probably talking more like 600-700k+. In a higher end older neighborhood, say Bloomfield Village, nice family-sized homes start more around $1 million. Obviously estate neighborhoods in Bloomfield and Franklin start in the millions.

    Of course much of Oakland is relatively cheap, but that's not what we're talking about. This isn't a discussion about working class areas like Waterford and Madison Heights, or not desirable areas like Pontiac.

    Quote Originally Posted by poobert View Post
    What you pay in OC wouldn't get you a shitty condo in the Bronx or even much, if anything, in Chicagoland.
    Chicagoland, apples to apples, basically has the same home prices as Metro Detroit. Yes, NYC is a different animal, but it's NYC.

    And you absolutely can get a nice coop (condos are rare) in the Bronx for well under 500k. The Bronx, if you like urbanity, is actually a great deal. Only Manhattan is more urban in the U.S.

    I actually think, for higher earners, NYC is a much better deal than Oakland County. Much more expensive, but I'd rather spend $1.5 million+ on a 3 bedroom on a landmarked block in brownstone Brooklyn than some garish pseudo-French mini-mansion on an ugly block of teardowns in Birmingham.

    NYC, contrary to stereotype is less pretentious and fake, and there's much more mixing of class, race and background.
    Last edited by Bham1982; March-29-19 at 06:37 PM.

  18. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    Get your point that suburbanization was a mixed bag, and not done as well as it could have been.

    Less with you that this has anything to do with OC and its current state.

    Given that we are part of America. Part of the rust belt. The home of a very cyclical and international auto industry. And a city/region with a history of racial oppression (see Ossian Sweet, redlining, school bussing, DPD pre-CAY, race riots, and liberal pity socialism). That all is the hand we've been dealt.
    The issue that I have with LBP is that he clearly believed that the success of Oakland County came at Detroit's expense. That is explicitly what he's saying with his "sprawl is good" mantra. And, in a perverse way, it actually was not as good for Oakland County as he thought. OC could and would be the preferred suburban quarters of a booming Detroit. If Metro Detroit had kept pace with places on the east and west coasts, Oakland County residents would have higher incomes and higher property values than they do now.

    The only reason that the results of OC don't look like more of a disaster is that it's being compared to Detroit. Compare it to Orange County, Calif., Westchester County, NY, or Montgomery County, MD, for an honest assessment of how it has performed over the last 50 years.
    Last edited by iheartthed; March-30-19 at 11:41 AM.

  19. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    What? Granted, "ridiculously cheap" is subjective, but the wealthiest parts of Oakland County have the most expensive real estate between NYC and Chicago. Ann Arbor is much cheaper than Birmingham.

    You cannot easily get a 4 bedroom house in move-in condition in any higher-end Oakland suburb for less than 500k, plus high taxes. I wouldn't call that "ridiculously cheap" by Michigan standards.

    In new construction McMansion areas in say, Northville/Novi/Rochester, you're probably talking more like 600-700k+. In a higher end older neighborhood, say Bloomfield Village, nice family-sized homes start more around $1 million. Obviously estate neighborhoods in Bloomfield and Franklin start in the millions.

    Of course much of Oakland is relatively cheap, but that's not what we're talking about. This isn't a discussion about working class areas like Waterford and Madison Heights, or not desirable areas like Pontiac.



    Chicagoland, apples to apples, basically has the same home prices as Metro Detroit. Yes, NYC is a different animal, but it's NYC.

    And you absolutely can get a nice coop (condos are rare) in the Bronx for well under 500k. The Bronx, if you like urbanity, is actually a great deal. Only Manhattan is more urban in the U.S.

    I actually think, for higher earners, NYC is a much better deal than Oakland County. Much more expensive, but I'd rather spend $1.5 million+ on a 3 bedroom on a landmarked block in brownstone Brooklyn than some garish pseudo-French mini-mansion on an ugly block of teardowns in Birmingham.

    NYC, contrary to stereotype is less pretentious and fake, and there's much more mixing of class, race and background.
    "My house can outsell your house" aside, and though my thoughts about the lost opportunity in OC still stand, I'll still go in on that Bronx coop with you, even if we don't always agree.

  20. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    The issue that I have with LBP is that he clearly believed that the success of Oakland County came at Detroit's expense.
    What? Clearly?

    Sure, he was happy to poach from Detroit. But that wasn't exactly hard. Detroit-based businesses were moving to OC, Livonia, Trenton, Warren, and every suburb in the book. The table was so tilted away from Detroit that its impossible the LBP thought for one second the impact on Detroit. His poaching involved setting up a table at the border and counting the firms running into his arms.

    With the fabled exception of Mike Ilitch, NOBODY was heading to Detroit in the 80s. NOBODY. Downtown was abandoned. Remember. Really abandoned. (Of course there were some smart investors like Chuck Forbes who bought 12-story office buildings with a 3,000 seat theatre for less than the price of a luxury car.)

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    That is explicitly what he's saying with his "sprawl is good" mantra. And, in a perverse way, it actually was not as good for Oakland County as he thought. OC could and would be the preferred suburban quarters of a booming Detroit. If Metro Detroit had kept pace with places on the east and west coasts, Oakland County residents would have higher incomes and higher property values than they do now.
    Unlikely to me. But sure, maybe. That's not the question, however. OC's status within the US had a few hundred more influencers than LBPs bombastic and antagonistic love of sprawl. And frankly, who didn't like sprawl in the 80s? I don't think OC sprawled any more than suburban Atlanta, Orange County, nor Long Island.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
    The only reason that the results of OC don't look like more of a disaster is that it's being compared to Detroit. Compare it to Orange County, Calif., Westchester County, NY, or Montgomery County, MD, for an honest assessment of how it has performed over the last 50 years.
    Again, much bigger factors. Detroit's implosion and the auto-industries travails were a far bigger element in OC's growth than any attitude about sprawl.

    Never thought much about how LBP was Trump-before-Trump. What made LBP a rare treat was that he said things that were politically incorrect. Project Hope was the PC mood. We're all one happy family.

    No. We were not. We didn't want to be. OC residents were mostly Detroit escapees who didn't like Detroit's policies.

  21. #71
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    A serious reality check, Oakland County is NOT what it used to be.

    Median household income for that county; is ONLY about ~ $66,000 year

    Easily a bakers dozen of places in the USA, that are far more affluent.
    LBP was merely mediocre medium at what he did, lets be honest.
    Last edited by O3H; March-30-19 at 01:49 PM.

  22. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by O3H View Post
    A serious reality check, Oakland County is NOT what it used to be.

    Median household income for that county; is ONLY about ~ $66,000 year

    Easily a bakers dozen of places in the USA, that are far more affluent.
    LBP was merely mediocre medium at what he did, lets be honest.
    Do you have a source for that?

  23. #73
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    Pick your graph, chart, data from dozens of site for Oakland county

    This one says $ 72,000 , oh well
    https://datausa.io/profile/geo/oakland-county-mi/

    This one says $ 66,000 want to split it down the middle, okay
    https://www.bestplaces.net/economy/c...chigan/oakland

    On average, per median household, for the entire county, it's meh ......
    LBP was okay, pretty average, nothing special.
    Last edited by O3H; March-30-19 at 08:48 PM.

  24. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by dtowncitylover View Post
    It's not because Oakland County has prospered. It's because the region has stagnated because prosperous counties like Oakland have refused to think regionally. Like how the fuck do people not get this? Who the fuck cares if OC is prosperous?

    Just because OC has done so well means shit. It means shit because we're not an island. LBP's myopic views on sprawl and regional economics have nearly destroyed this region.

    So yeah. Fuck cancer. But also fuck LBP and his ilk for being racist, selfish asshats at the expense of everyone else in this region. I want him gone but not like this, though I won't be in mourning just hopeful for an Oakland County that actually thinks its part of this region.
    Sounds like someone needs a visit from JBP:

    https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/

    OC has NO responsibility to any other part of the region when it comes to prosperity.

    Prosperity is about PERSONAL (and community) RESPONSIBILITY of those who wish to be prosperous. 99% of your successes or failures are due to WHAT YOU DO OR FAIL TO DO, not what others do.

    The people in OC learned that lesson, accepted it and they are where they are because of it.

    Dimocrats (i.e. domestic enemies of the US and all it stands for) try to foster this "blame" attitude and advise people to blame OTHERS for their failures to make right choices, encourage the harboring of resentment and bitterness of/at others who did make correct choices.

    What does this lead to: Armies of people who allow things like this:

    https://www.amazon.com/Gulag-Archipe.../dp/1843430851


    Net result - 20-30mm people dead in the USSR in the 20th century and probably a total of between 100mm and 120mm total dead in the same time period when you look at Mao and Pol Pot and other marxist regimes.

    The Dimms were always enamoured of communism/socialism and after the fall of the USSR, they rebranded it. Its now called multiculturalism, identity politics and "intersectionality".

    OC got it right - maybe when people drop their bitter, nihilistic delusions and shoulder their responsibility for their own successes and failures, then maybe we can all be like OC.

    Just sayin .....

  25. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by takascar View Post
    Sounds like someone needs a visit from JBP:

    https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/

    OC has NO responsibility to any other part of the region when it comes to prosperity.

    Prosperity is about PERSONAL (and community) RESPONSIBILITY of those who wish to be prosperous. 99% of your successes or failures are due to WHAT YOU DO OR FAIL TO DO, not what others do.

    The people in OC learned that lesson, accepted it and they are where they are because of it.

    Dimocrats (i.e. domestic enemies of the US and all it stands for) try to foster this "blame" attitude and advise people to blame OTHERS for their failures to make right choices, encourage the harboring of resentment and bitterness of/at others who did make correct choices.

    What does this lead to: Armies of people who allow things like this:

    https://www.amazon.com/Gulag-Archipe.../dp/1843430851


    Net result - 20-30mm people dead in the USSR in the 20th century and probably a total of between 100mm and 120mm total dead in the same time period when you look at Mao and Pol Pot and other marxist regimes.

    The Dimms were always enamoured of communism/socialism and after the fall of the USSR, they rebranded it. Its now called multiculturalism, identity politics and "intersectionality".

    OC got it right - maybe when people drop their bitter, nihilistic delusions and shoulder their responsibility for their own successes and failures, then maybe we can all be like OC.

    Just sayin .....
    Lol. Someone obviously doesn't believe in the old proverb: a chain is only as strong as the weakest link.

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