Is Public transit Charity?

[stasu1213]

^^^ A stronger car mechanically helps. That is to say level of those that can be driven in rural areas and rough terrain like Antartica, Australia, Afghanistan, and India!

I'm serious [[see below rough terrain areas of the world). When you see cars driven in certain regions on rough, dusty, snowy and often unpaved roads you don't see wimpy models. Those suspensions are far, FAR to delicate for that.

Same here in Michigan increasingly! Weaker cars suffer more damage/ faster! Toyotas for example, are very hearty suspension-wise, I've found... you'll not see weaker offerings driven in areas below:

The Hardest Countries To Drive Across In The World

I a perfect world American car companies would had produced tougher cars with tougher suspensions that could handle the pot holes and rough roads such as the sedans and compact cars in other countries are designed to do. But this is greedy America where cars are produced to break down from the slightest bump in the road so that you could keep giving the car companies your money. The only vehicles that are advertised as tough and built to last are the pick up trucks and maybe one or two SUVs.

[coracle]

I a perfect world American car companies would had produced tougher cars with tougher suspensions that could handle the pot holes and rough roads such as the sedans and compact cars in other countries are designed to do. But this is greedy America where cars are produced to break down from the slightest bump in the road so that you could keep giving the car companies your money. The only vehicles that are advertised as tough and built to last are the pick up trucks and maybe one or two SUVs.

What a peculiar opinion! FIX THE DAMN ROADS.

[O3H]

How about eliminating cars from sections of Detroit and making it walkable.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Can I add some facts to this discussion?

https://www.smartbus.org/Portals/0/B...get%20Book.pdf

Let's go to the videotape! [[Old timers remember Warner Wolf, no?)

Operating revenue [[not tax revenue) for SMART: $13 million
Average fare: $1.36
Number of rides: 9.2 million

Fixed route expenses [[i.e. non admin, non OPEB): $93 million

Math says that to make SMART hold its own [[i.e. run operationally neutrally) the average fare would have to be $10.56. Increasing the fare that much would obviously cause ridership to plummet. It is therefore unlikely that SMART would ever be able to pay for itself through ridership.

[[Important note: in a previous lifetime, I lived in Chicago, and you couldn't possibly have more people riding public transportation than there. The CTA also loses money, hand over fist.)

The report doesn't disclose how many miles are driven, but you can extrapolate it from the insurance costs [[described as per mile driven, and given a number). The number is an even 200,000,000 miles.

Let's say that the average route is 10 miles. That means that, on average, that bus taking a 10 mile route would have either 4 or 5 riders.

That being said, the strongest argument FOR public transportation is the economic one--this provides a means of transportation for the poorest in our community, and that's a good thing, for many reasons.

Our public transportation system is a failure because we are trying to be something that we are not. Take the money from a bus and buy four Pacificas. Electric, nat gas, heck, automated when available. THAT will be the cutting edge public transportation--from point to point in the most efficient vehicle possible. Not trying to make us look like Chicago with 1/100th of the ridership.

Just my $0.02.

[Honky Tonk]

Can I add some facts to this discussion?

https://www.smartbus.org/Portals/0/B...get%20Book.pdf

Let's go to the videotape! [[Old timers remember Warner Wolf, no?)

Operating revenue [[not tax revenue) for SMART: $13 million
Average fare: $1.36
Number of rides: 9.2 million

Fixed route expenses [[i.e. non admin, non OPEB): $93 million

Math says that to make SMART hold its own [[i.e. run operationally neutrally) the average fare would have to be $10.56. Increasing the fare that much would obviously cause ridership to plummet. It is therefore unlikely that SMART would ever be able to pay for itself through ridership.

[[Important note: in a previous lifetime, I lived in Chicago, and you couldn't possibly have more people riding public transportation than there. The CTA also loses money, hand over fist.)

The report doesn't disclose how many miles are driven, but you can extrapolate it from the insurance costs [[described as per mile driven, and given a number). The number is an even 200,000,000 miles.

Let's say that the average route is 10 miles. That means that, on average, that bus taking a 10 mile route would have either 4 or 5 riders.

That being said, the strongest argument FOR public transportation is the economic one--this provides a means of transportation for the poorest in our community, and that's a good thing, for many reasons.

Our public transportation system is a failure because we are trying to be something that we are not. Take the money from a bus and buy four Pacificas. Electric, nat gas, heck, automated when available. THAT will be the cutting edge public transportation--from point to point in the most efficient vehicle possible. Not trying to make us look like Chicago with 1/100th of the ridership.

Just my $0.02.

Years ago, before the bankruptcy, I posted, based on my own experiences, to put Detroit on the short bus. I've been in other parts of the country where those are used very efficiently. You buy a monthly, by-weekly, or other card, [[similar to cell phone minute cards) and use swipers. The loops are then shortened, busses can be added and subtracted when and where needed. You can travel all over the city horizontally, vertically, diagonally, and get to your desired destination quickly. You're not running expensive behemoth empty gas guzzlers for needless miles. I agree, come up with a working plan that suites our area.

[ABetterDetroit]

Our public transportation system is a failure because we are trying to be something that we are not. Take the money from a bus and buy four Pacificas. Electric, nat gas, heck, automated when available. THAT will be the cutting edge public transportation--from point to point in the most efficient vehicle possible. Not trying to make us look like Chicago with 1/100th of the ridership.

Just my $0.02.

The problem with your solution is you are not fulfilling the Gen X desires who reject cars Bankruptcy Guy. They don’t want to get where they need to go in a fucking Pacifica. They want a 600K new bus with it’s own lane or better yet, a 6 million dollar passenger prime mover pulling them over a Billion or 5 of new tracks with new stations and property that was purchased for them to glide over on commuter rail. If they wanted to get there in a Pacifica they would just buy one or ride share.

Point to Point transportation, affordable and scalable, what were you thinking BG? You’re talking crazy.

[O3H]

In many ways, we are third-world-like, compared to a country like Germany
Germany's cities and larger towns have efficient public-transport systems. Bigger cities, such as Berlin and Munich, integrate buses, trams, U-Bahn [[underground, subway) trains and S-Bahn [[suburban) trains into a single network. Fares are determined by zones or time travelled, sometimes by both.

[ABetterDetroit]

Compared to Germany we are way behind Willi.

Does Germany have primary schools that are FUBAR, a insanely high per capital firearm homicide rate, high poverty rate, decrepit infrastructure, superfund sites, blighted businesses and houses by the the tens of thousands caving in on themselves, and polluted rivers like the red run?

We have to walk before we can run. With limited cash to throw at these problems they have to be prioritized and solved in a financially responsible matter. No longer is it possible to spend huge sums on one problem irresponsibly neglecting other issues entirely.

[Bham1982]

In many ways, we are third-world-like, compared to a country like Germany
Germany's cities and larger towns have efficient public-transport systems. Bigger cities, such as Berlin and Munich, integrate buses, trams, U-Bahn [[underground, subway) trains and S-Bahn [[suburban) trains into a single network. Fares are determined by zones or time travelled, sometimes by both.

Germany also has sky high gas prices, a difficult/expensive driver licensing process, and around twice the level of federal taxation. They also have very low homeownership, worse air quality and inequality is actually growing faster than in the U.S. On the positive side, university and day care are free, and much safer thanks to sane gun laws.

But I don't think many Americans would trade their families' prosperity for more buses and trains, or even free university.

[O3H]

Isn't America the most powerful country in the world, with guns, tanks , nuclear weapons, an Industrialized Military mega POWER house of incredibly almighty fear !!!!

We are the best, say it again, We are the best, We are the best, say it again, We are the best, We are the best, say it again, We are the best, We are the best, say it again, We are the best

Hear the crowd roar, ohhhhhh, ahhhhhhh
May the world bow down at our feet, we do the best at EVERYTHING !!!

God damn we are great............................................. ..............
{until that debt thing bites us severely in the testicles}

[[ just so happens much of the rest of the world kicks our ass, daily)

Been to Germany visiting family, know it quite well.
They are MUCH better off , than a majority of Americans.
Sure they have "problems", but the standard of living crushes the USA

Time to take a hint, modernize American cities with public transport

[Honky Tonk]

Isn't America the most powerful country in the world, with guns, tanks , nuclear weapons, an Industrialized Military mega POWER house of incredibly almighty fear !!!!

We are the best, say it again, We are the best, We are the best, say it again, We are the best, We are the best, say it again, We are the best, We are the best, say it again, We are the best

Hear the crowd roar, ohhhhhh, ahhhhhhh
May the world bow down at our feet, we do the best at EVERYTHING !!!

God damn we are great............................................. ..............
{until that debt thing bites us severely in the testicles}

[[ just so happens much of the rest of the world kicks our ass, daily)

Been to Germany visiting family, know it quite well.
They are MUCH better off , than a majority of Americans.
Sure they have "problems", but the standard of living crushes the USA

Time to take a hint, modernize American cities with public transport

Or move to Germany with one's family where one would be happier, mach shell.

[O3H]

Why can't the USA make me happy. I live here, own assets here.
The USA is unique , one of the few places you could sell Pet Rocks $
"Mach schnell" indeed or the USA will become second fiddle to China and others.

[stasu1213]

Years ago, before the bankruptcy, I posted, based on my own experiences, to put Detroit on the short bus. I've been in other parts of the country where those are used very efficiently. You buy a monthly, by-weekly, or other card, [[similar to cell phone minute cards) and use swipers. The loops are then shortened, busses can be added and subtracted when and where needed. You can travel all over the city horizontally, vertically, diagonally, and get to your desired destination quickly. You're not running expensive behemoth empty gas guzzlers for needless miles. I agree, come up with a working plan that suites our area.

I had suggested years ago on this site that DDOT and SMART bring back the shorter shuttle like busses on lighter lines and during off hours and on weekends for runs such as 610, 580, 635. Many naysayers had said that it was a bad idea. I had suggested this idea to DDOT and SMART but both had shot it down. In this climate of high insurance, increasing gas prices, and terrible suspension damaging roads this concept should be re-examined by DDOT and SMART. There could be lines reinstalled weekends and after 6pm especially during events and games that are going on downtown and midtown. They would be surprised at how many riders wold use these busses if reinstalled during these time periods and on weekends. Many planners or those who sit on the board of these to agencies probably don’t use public transportation as their daily commute to and from work which could result of many detached attitudes towards bus commuters.

[stasu1213]

Germany also has sky high gas prices, a difficult/expensive driver licensing process, and around twice the level of federal taxation. They also have very low homeownership, worse air quality and inequality is actually growing faster than in the U.S. On the positive side, university and day care are free, and much safer thanks to sane gun laws.

But I don't think many Americans would trade their families' prosperity for more buses and trains, or even free university.

Germany, as well as many country in Europe have a much better transit system the Detroit and many cities across the US. Their politicians are not as easily bought off as the officials probably are in Detroit as well as probably other cities across the nation

[SammyS]

Why can't the USA make me happy. I live here, own assets here.
The USA is unique , one of the few places you could sell Pet Rocks $
"Mach schnell" indeed or the USA will become second fiddle to China and others.

Where would you rather live? I've lived and travelled all around the world and I'd say the US is the best country to live in by far. It comes down to this, at least for me.

1. If you have ambition and a means to generate wealth, then the US will reward you handsomely, or.....
2. If you're looking for welfare and a reliance on the State, then go to Europe or even Australia for that matter. Lived in both, not for me.

PS. US will not be playing second fiddle to anyone, at least not in our lifetime. We have the deepest currency pool, most trusted and transparent Laws, stable government, largest economy/financial markets, gold reserves and so on. None of which applies to China anymore than they applied to Japan in the 80/90's or the USSR in the 50/60's. Remember, they were supposed to have eaten our lunch back at their peak. Didn't happen. China will suffer the same deflationary and political collapse as the prior superpower contenders respectively.

[O3H]

Yep, progress. Evolution is alive and well in the D.

[archfan]

I had suggested years ago on this site that DDOT and SMART bring back the shorter shuttle like busses on lighter lines and during off hours and on weekends for runs such as 610, 580, 635. Many naysayers had said that it was a bad idea. I had suggested this idea to DDOT and SMART but both had shot it down. ...

If I found this in 10 minutes of searching the internet, it must be pretty well known in the industry that smaller buses cost less than the large buses. What reason, then would SMART and DDOT have for keeping the large buses? Planning for peak times?

Cost Driver 4 – Average Bus Size

The second most important factor that drives system costs is the average size of its buses as measured by seating capacity. Surprisingly, bus size impacts OpEx costs more than it impacts capital. Each additional seat adds 2½% to OpEx costs and 1½% to capital

In other words, a system consisting of 40-seat buses costs almost 50% more to run than a 20-seat system. Average seating capacity ranges between 12 and 51. Increasing bus size decreases reliability. Vehicle system failures rates double as seating capacity increases from 36 to 48 seats. We find that the size related cost impact is due predominantly to increased costs in maintenance, administration, and materials rather than in operations.

[O3H]

Taxes are for services, and should be spent on the public at large.

[Zacha341]

^^^ I agree. Then some bureaucrat figured out how to scrape their moneys off the top!

[Bham1982]

Why can't the USA make me happy. I live here, own assets here.
The USA is unique , one of the few places you could sell Pet Rocks $
"Mach schnell" indeed or the USA will become second fiddle to China and others.

Americans, generally speaking, don't want to be poorer and renters for life in bleak commieblock apartments in exchange for better transit and free college.

If you want buses running every 10 minutes, pretty much any other place will be better than the Midwestern U.S. It would make sense to move to one of these places rather than complaining that McMansion dwellers in Northville don't want a subway.

[stasu1213]

If I found this in 10 minutes of searching the internet, it must be pretty well known in the industry that smaller buses cost less than the large buses. What reason, then would SMART and DDOT have for keeping the large buses? Planning for peak times?

Cost Driver 4 – Average Bus Size

The second most important factor that drives system costs is the average size of its buses as measured by seating capacity. Surprisingly, bus size impacts OpEx costs more than it impacts capital. Each additional seat adds 2½% to OpEx costs and 1½% to capital

In other words, a system consisting of 40-seat buses costs almost 50% more to run than a 20-seat system. Average seating capacity ranges between 12 and 51. Increasing bus size decreases reliability. Vehicle system failures rates double as seating capacity increases from 36 to 48 seats. We find that the size related cost impact is due predominantly to increased costs in maintenance, administration, and materials rather than in operations.

On paper you make a hell of a lot of sense. Others had probably came to the board of each companies with these ideas but I don’t know why the board members don’t want to take this into consideration. I still believe that there are communities that don’t want to see SMART being sucessful with the services. I don’t know why DDOT doesn’t adopt the small bus concept. They had tried it in the late 90s for I remember Hayes Ltd had a smaller bus on it’s line as well as Vernon [[E Vernon) had one as well. There are still factions within city government I believe who are lobbied or paid off to keep DDOT and SMART from being reliable sources of reliable transportation. I would told that the Detroit City Council under President Charles Pugh had stopped SMART services operating inside Detroit city limits after 6pm due to SMART so called picking up DDOT’s riders on certain lines when DDOT busses were running late or hadn’t shown for hours. I don’t know how true that is. Also, SMART did have the crappy shuttle liked busses in the 90s that ran through the Grosse Pointe, St Clair Shores areas. These shuttle busses runs were 610, 615, 620, 780 and sometimes 635. They had saved SMART money on gas but the busses had often broken down, over heated, and the air nor heated worked on them at times. They were costing SMART money in constant repairs. I fault the person whom was responsible for ordering those type of busses. DDOT and SMART should order the smaller busses from an outside company that make and deal them instead of GMC or a local manufacturer. Why trust in your competition to sell you a great realizable product that will cause people to use that product instead of buy their cars

[Tig3rzhark]

I'm glad to see some form of progress. Can't wait to get a tap card.

[O3H]

Are the busses bought via the big three , Cumming/Detroit diesel , etc ?
Incentives, discounts and enticements for a certain type of bus to be bought

[Tig3rzhark]

The new buses that the city of Detroit bought, came from New Flyer, an American manufacturer.

[dtowncitylover]

It would make sense to move to one of these places rather than complaining that McMansion dwellers in Northville don't want a subway.

And those McMansion dwellers are currently wondering why their kids live in Midtown, Chicago, or Brooklyn.

This area isn't "owned" by those people, so we're gonna stay and live here and rally for equitable transportation options, thank you.