Is Public transit Charity?

[Honky Tonk]

And those McMansion dwellers are currently wondering why their kids live in Midtown, Chicago, or Brooklyn.

This area isn't "owned" by those people, so we're gonna stay and live here and rally for equitable transportation options, thank you.

Well, now that you're all grown up and moved out on your own, quit asking Mom and Dad for money.

[O3H]

The buses from New Flyer , come from an interesting company.

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/New_Flyer_Industries

Mr. Den Oudsten owned virtually the entirety of New Flyer.
~~ With a Detroit Department of Transportation order having fallen
on unforeseen payment delays it was left to the bankers
to carry the company until it was on its feet again or face a possible bankruptcy.
** As a result and to reduce the amount of risk involved, Jan den Oudsten
agreed to sell his majority non-controlling share
to KPS Special Situations Fund in March 2002

[ABetterDetroit]

Well, now that you're all grown up and moved out on your own, quit asking Mom and Dad for money.

Close but not on the money. Not asking for but are being given.

Wealth transfer is expanding at an astounding rate. People used to usually have to wait for someone to die. Not anymore.

This growing demographic is not discussed very often because it is a third rail issue for both political parties who are busy sucking up all the air in the room 24/7 now.

Too bad, back when we had journalism it would have been fascinating to see more light shined on it.

[O3H]

Which wealthy sob's are donating to mass transit like its charity ?
I'll gladly read the journalistic expose' in fine detail.

[archfan]

The buses from New Flyer , come from an interesting company.

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/New_Flyer_Industries

...

I hope Detroit buys their Western Flyer model next time:

[Bham1982]

And those McMansion dwellers are currently wondering why their kids live in Midtown, Chicago, or Brooklyn.

Pretty sure they aren't. 20-somethings aren't expected to buy 4,000 sq ft. homes. No one buys such homes until they have kids.

McMansion developers have been making gobs of money in recent years now that Gen X and Millennials are buying. And I seriously doubt many of their kids live in Detroit proper.

When their kids are ready to buy, they'll be living among established wealth [[ie Bloomfield), not Northville Twp.

This area isn't "owned" by those people, so we're gonna stay and live here and rally for equitable transportation options, thank you.

What a quaint notion. The wealthy do actually control public policy, unfortunately. That's why you got the Q Line. And there's nothing remotely equitable about it.

[swingline]

Americans, generally speaking, don't want to be poorer and renters for life in bleak commieblock apartments in exchange for better transit and free college.

If you want buses running every 10 minutes, pretty much any other place will be better than the Midwestern U.S. It would make sense to move to one of these places rather than complaining that McMansion dwellers in Northville don't want a subway.

So because other regions already have functioning transit, the solution for people here who would like to enjoy the benefits of transit is to move to one of those regions? Folks who choose to stay should just accept that their region will ultimately resume its no-growth, toxic poverty levels-fueled slide into Mississippi-like economic irrelevance? According to the latest Bridge Magazine study, many of our State's measures of economic health have already fallen to the bottom third. Should we accept that because the shrinking number of Northville-haves won't really feel it much anyway, so perhaps no transit is no big deal? [[And, straw-man alert, no one is asking those Northville folks to fund a subway. Far from it.)

On the other hand, maybe a good option for the community would be to take on a minuscule tax increase so we can utilize functioning transit as one tool to assist us in joining the rest of the world's globally competitive cities and achieving a sustainable and equitable economy. Or then again, maybe not, because heaven forbid a Northville-dweller [[or certainly, a Macomb County dweller) be asked to pay for a bus that he or she might not ride.

[O3H]

Yes, the folks in the upper peninsula should pay for public transit
down by Detroit. Everyone in the state chips in for the prosperity/health
of the state.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...
Our public transportation system is a failure because we are trying to be something that we are not. Take the money from a bus and buy four Pacificas. Electric, nat gas, heck, automated when available. THAT will be the cutting edge public transportation--from point to point in the most efficient vehicle possible. Not trying to make us look like Chicago with 1/100th of the ridership.
...

BG's point isn't that Pacificas are great cars. Its that trying to be the MTA or CTA isn't possible. We don't have the density nor local economy. Subways here would be absurd. Light rail, well maybe on a couple major runs. Even BRT won't ever be the answer to the Chene line.

We need to have public transit -- for a non-trivial segment of our population. But it makes no economic sense to have a 10 Mile Road bus line. So we have to think smarter.

For Detroit, I suspect the best solution [[outside of the major lines) would be to eliminate DDOT, and Uber/Lyft it 100%. Yes, there are challenges. Lack of smartphones/credit cards. But if we could invent cars here, we sure could invent solutions to little problems. [[Phone call-ins, alternate payment/credit methods.).

Pouring money into heavy busses won't ever get us something that works for the disadvantaged among us, nor for each wave of hipsters being hatched.

[SammyS]

BG's point isn't that Pacificas are great cars. Its that trying to be the MTA or CTA isn't possible. We don't have the density nor local economy. Subways here would be absurd. Light rail, well maybe on a couple major runs. Even BRT won't ever be the answer to the Chene line.

We need to have public transit -- for a non-trivial segment of our population. But it makes no economic sense to have a 10 Mile Road bus line. So we have to think smarter.

For Detroit, I suspect the best solution [[outside of the major lines) would be to eliminate DDOT, and Uber/Lyft it 100%. Yes, there are challenges. Lack of smartphones/credit cards. But if we could invent cars here, we sure could invent solutions to little problems. [[Phone call-ins, alternate payment/credit methods.).

Pouring money into heavy busses won't ever get us something that works for the disadvantaged among us, nor for each wave of hipsters being hatched.

You are absolutely correct and your solution not only saves money but is the perfect segue into Autonomous Vehicles. By that point, most of Detroit’s problems with public transportation would be resolved.

[JonWylie]

BG's point isn't that Pacificas are great cars. Its that trying to be the MTA or CTA isn't possible. We don't have the density nor local economy. Subways here would be absurd. Light rail, well maybe on a couple major runs. Even BRT won't ever be the answer to the Chene line.

We need to have public transit -- for a non-trivial segment of our population. But it makes no economic sense to have a 10 Mile Road bus line. So we have to think smarter.

For Detroit, I suspect the best solution [[outside of the major lines) would be to eliminate DDOT, and Uber/Lyft it 100%. Yes, there are challenges. Lack of smartphones/credit cards. But if we could invent cars here, we sure could invent solutions to little problems. [[Phone call-ins, alternate payment/credit methods.).

Pouring money into heavy busses won't ever get us something that works for the disadvantaged among us, nor for each wave of hipsters being hatched.

I think this solution is so far off and absurd. The thought that people should take Uber or Lyft for every trip, even if subsidized, does nothing to curb the issues of cars on the road, parking lot dependencies, pollution, and honestly you could probably never subsidize it enough to keep it affordable. The plan has to be to improve the public transit as it is now, and move towards permanent options that will help improve land values and density. Public transit isn't something that we are going to discover a better solution for, there are already viable solutions out there. Detroit isn't the prime candidate for a massive subway systems, but Uber and Lyft aren't the solution either.

[dtowncitylover]

You are absolutely correct and your solution not only saves money but is the perfect segue into Autonomous Vehicles. By that point, most of Detroit’s problems with public transportation would be resolved.

How would autonomous vehicles solve congestion issues? Poverty issues? Ownership issues? More vehicles on the road means more congestion. Poor people still wouldn't be able to afford autonomous vehicles.

This over-zealous jizzfest for autonomous vehicles is rather comical considering we're probably still 50 years away from any mass-scale production of them.

When people are moving into cities and cities aren't built to have cars, how is autonomous vehicles going to be any more beneficial than regular cars? Answer: they're not. It's the same. It's still going to take up space that could be used for something better.

[dtowncitylover]

Pretty sure they aren't. 20-somethings aren't expected to buy 4,000 sq ft. homes. No one buys such homes until they have kids.

McMansion developers have been making gobs of money in recent years now that Gen X and Millennials are buying. And I seriously doubt many of their kids live in Detroit proper.

When their kids are ready to buy, they'll be living among established wealth [[ie Bloomfield), not Northville Twp.

What a quaint notion. The wealthy do actually control public policy, unfortunately. That's why you got the Q Line. And there's nothing remotely equitable about it.

That would be the case if millenials in the Detroit area had such wealth to buy. Many aren't returning because their jobs are better found in real metro areas that don't have such a defeatist attitude about life.

So yeah, many who stay may find a good house in the burbs, but many of left and are never coming back. So this region is going to suffer because we're sitting on our hands waiting for the this miracle called "autonmous vehicles" to suddenly change the world when we already have traditional mass/public transit that has proven results to lead to economic growth in both urban and regional areas.

The QLine isn't true public transit. It is indeed a wealthy vision of what some could see as public transit. And you're right the wealthy, i.e. Oakland County, have controlled the public policy debate about regional transportation. With the soon to be demise of one LBP, I look forward to actually talking seriously about greater transportation choice in the region which includes greater and better investment in public transportation.

[dtowncitylover]

We need to have public transit -- for a non-trivial segment of our population. But it makes no economic sense to have a 10 Mile Road bus line. So we have to think smarter.

No we need to have real invested public/mass transit because it's a proven economic booster to any region. Augmenting regular cars with more shiny new autonomous cars is not a true "choice". It's basically saying, instead of riding a horse, here's a carriage that you can sit and be pulled by a horse. WOW! So different!

How do you know there's no economic sense to have Route 730? Do you ride it? Do you know anyone that rides it? Are you aware of something about it?

Vehicles, man driven or otherwise, are not efficient pieces of transportation. They are costly to own and operate. They do not have capacity for more than 4-6 people. They need space in which to park meaning there's plenty of land out there in suburbia [[and downtown!). The American fetish for cars as an object of transportation superiority, while not surprising knowing how consumer-minded and selfish we are, is not good.

[MrNittany]

We need to have public transit -- for a non-trivial segment of our population. But it makes no economic sense to have a 10 Mile Road bus line. So we have to think smarter.

Here's my view when it comes to routes like a 10 Mile Road bus line.

I currently live in Broomfield, Colorado - halfway between Denver & Boulder. I'm doing fairly well in life. I use the Flatiron Flyer all the time to get to downtown Denver or Boulder, and I use the light rail all the time to go to the airport. And I'm not the only one: those routes are packed, even when I'm on them near the Midnight hour.

And those sort of routes - connecting to downtowns and airports - are very popular with people who are doing well money-wise and with people who have cars.

Now, if I need to get to Lakewood, I'd never even consider taking the Sheridan Road bus. I'll use my car. Too many stops and a lot of time. But I fully understand that there are many people who NEED that Sheridan Road bus - it's a necessary part of life for them.

I don't have access to Denver public transit #s, but I'd bet the Flyer and the airport light rail make a lot of $, while that Sheridan Road bus loses $.

I tell this long tale because I think the 10 Mile Road bus needs to be viewed in that context. It loses $, yes. But there are some people who NEED it. A Detroit [[or any city) regional public transit system needs to think about what routes can be profitable [[most likely routes to downtowns and the airport), build those, and let those subsidize the other routes.

[Wesley Mouch]

How would autonomous vehicles solve congestion issues? Poverty issues? Ownership issues? More vehicles on the road means more congestion. Poor people still wouldn't be able to afford autonomous vehicles.

Autonomous vehicles may not solve congestion. But neither have cars. And neither has public transit. Anywhere. I've not been everywhere, but public transit [[as we know it -- PTAWKI) seems to mostly be a disaster. NYC subways? Oh, there's success! Paris bus system [[been on it recently -- walking would have been faster).

Mass transit doesn't really seem to scale well.

Once upon a time, say around 1900 or so, companies and governments fought over who got to run profitably transit lines. Government won. And we have not yet been given the glorious future you describe.

I'm not saying Uber/Lyft is the answer. Nor are a fleet of self-driving Pacificas.

What I am saying is that we know we don't have the answer yet. And building the same, dysfunctional transit systems isn't the answer either. [[Sure there are those who love their busses -- but I suspect far more who hate riding them. I rode the bus for years in my misguided youth -- a choice as it worked for me. And it wasn't bad on my rather busy route.)

What I'm sure of is that pouring money and investment into the same old bus/subway/light rail pit can only get us to mediocre.

Is waiting 45 minutes for a 730 Smart bus acceptable? OK, let's double the system cost and make it 22 minutes. Oh boy, isn't that great! Meanwhile, four people from within a 1 mile radius also need to get to downtown Plymouth. Autonomous vehicles make a nice 'dreamy' solution. It probably won't work well either as the only solution. But...

We have the chance to pretty much design a transit system that works from scratch. I just don't think doing the same things done for the last 100 years is the right or only solution.

This over-zealous jizzfest for autonomous vehicles is rather comical considering we're probably still 50 years away from any mass-scale production of them.

When people are moving into cities and cities aren't built to have cars, how is autonomous vehicles going to be any more beneficial than regular cars? Answer: they're not. It's the same. It's still going to take up space that could be used for something better.[/QUOTE]
Most of Paris is still a clogged traffic mess. Transit doesn't solve it. An autonomous vehicle that spends 90% of its time moving doesn't need a parking space [[near the city). And it replaces 5 or 10 cars that are parked 90% of their life. Again, I'm not advocating for any one solution. But I sure don't see how the 'same old way' for transit is a good solution either. Let's find a better way. Who would have thought that Uber/Lyft would ever exist. That smartphones/networks could tell us more about how to get somewhere than a DDOT printed map. Could tell us whether our driver is naughty or nice. I'm certain that Uber/Lyft wasn't the brainchild of a transit planner for DDOT [[or the MTA/CTA/XTA). Maybe the solution will be self-driving bus tractors that tow vehicles around -- and that can re-arrange the cars to get close to their destinations. Nah... that won't work. Nothing works. Everything has something wrong with it. But here's an idea. No more small, private vehicles. Let's ban Uber. Rapist drivers. Let's build 60 passenger articulated busses and run them every 58 minutes on routes that don't go from home to work or shopping -- but between two random spots on roads chosen by the best and brightest transit planners. We won't have enough busses, but that's OK. We will later when the network effect grows our economy. Oh, but we can't run them at night because, well, we can't afford to. There's a great idea. Well, you can at least take the Paris Metro at 2am. Let's go with that.

[O3H]

Putting more than 1 butt in 1 vehicle works to avoid congestion, period.
There are areas of the world that DO NOT build "extra" parking on purpose,
to force the public into using more mass transit on a regular basis. It works.

[stasu1213]

You are absolutely correct and your solution not only saves money but is the perfect segue into Autonomous Vehicles. By that point, most of Detroit’s problems with public transportation would be resolved.

The way to think smarter is to have a shorter shuttle like busses for lighter routes such as 10 mile, Chene,

[bust]

Funny how people who expect unlimited funds and real estate for roads get in such a bunch about the tiny fraction of the transportation budget and space that goes toward vastly more efficient rail and other mass transit systems.

[stasu1213]

I think that the drivers of Lyft and Uber should register and have that registration certificate in the windows of their vehicles or somewhere inside our outside of the car so that potential passengers could see to make sure that the driver is legitimate.

[stasu1213]

Short busses are they way to go for lighter routes and looped routes. Short busses were implemented by DDOT in the 90s. Some of them had music piped in through the speakers from the driver. Detroit has the potential to be on the cutting edge of mass transit without having a subway built or another people mover which was way too expensive to build. I think that that one of the things that stopped the Qline from extending to 8 mile road is that it would had taken businesses away from the DDOT’s Woodward line. UAW probably would not had went for that. The thing that will make a great mass transportation system in Detroit is designated bus lanes and signal lights. Great busses that don’t break down often and that have wider aisles and a little more wider seats. If DDOT and SMART have trouble keeping drivers maybe they should seek elsewhere for reliable drivers.

[Zacha341]

Yes, there have been very tragic instances of people mistaking cars for Ubers etc.

I've used Lyft mostly, and per the phone app you have photo of the driver, make of car, license plate and reviews of driver. I don't get into the car unless car, plate and person match. I also look for the dash-board light.

I think that the drivers of Lyft and Uber should register and have that registration certificate in the windows of their vehicles or somewhere inside our outside of the car so that potential passengers could see to make sure that the driver is legitimate.

[SammyS]

Yes, there have been very tragic instances of people mistaking cars for Ubers etc.

and so should hookers.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvZFM5avA64