55 mph speed limit on the Lodge

[thomprod]

Why does the Lodge still have a posted 55 mph speed limit [[which almost no one observes) when most of I-75 has a limit of 70 mph [[until just north of I-94)? Weren't both freeways built to Interstate highway design standards?

[Scottathew]

"With the exception of a limited number of urban freeway miles, State law sets maximum speed limits on "US," "I" and "M" routes at 70 mph. In densely populated [[urban) areas where there are many exit and entrance ramps constructed close together, the speed limit is held to 55 mph. "

https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616...8086--,00.html

[Sandhouse]

Remember, the Lodge was never an Interstate, and it pre-dates the Interstate System of 1956 by a couple years. Its lesser curve and sight-distance standards are why MDOT is reluctant to raise the 55-mph posted limit, the actual operating speed notwithstanding.

Perversely, the minimum speed on Michigan freeways is also 55 mph.

[Meddle]

I would prefer restoring the nationwide double nickle. There is simply no reason not to.

[Gistok]

Actually the only part of the Lodge that predates the Interstate system was the James Couzens Highway section northwest of Wyoming. In Oakland County it was called Northwestern Hwy., even back then....

http://www.historicmapworks.com/Map/...1925/Michigan/

[Maof]

I would prefer restoring the nationwide double nickle. There is simply no reason not to.

Call us crazy but, I'm with you on that. 55 mph, people go 65. 70 mph, they go 80.

[Gistok]

An old thread about James Couzen Hwy.... although none of the WSU image links work anymore.

https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...Couzen-Highway

[Meddle]

Actually the only part of the Lodge that predates the Interstate system was the James Cousins Highway section northwest of Wyoming.

Yes, but considering the reference to I-75, I'm not sure which section of 'The Lodge' the OP is referring to. Northwestern is now either I-96 or I-696 isn't it?

Inside the city, 'The Lodge' was never an interstate, but is a US highway which are usually under many of the same rules.

[Wesley Mouch]

I would prefer restoring the nationwide double nickle. There is simply no reason not to.

Europe is moving to speed limiting cars. Given the urgency of settled climate science, we need to move now to speed limited cars to the speed that yields the minimum CO2 discharge. I would guess this is 45-50 mph. Statewide, auto-limited 45 mph is a concrete step we can easily take today to reduce our CO2 footprint. We created the auto-industry. Let's be the solution to the problem we created.

[Gistok]

Yes, but considering the reference to I-75, I'm not sure which section of 'The Lodge' the OP is referring to. Northwestern is now either I-96 or I-696 isn't it?

Inside the city, 'The Lodge' was never an interstate, but is a US highway which are usually under many of the same rules.

That's right... US-10... just like the Davison and Southfield Freeways were not part of the Interstate System.

Northwestern Hwy shares the same space [[although they have separate lanes) for about 1.5 miles... from Lahser to west of Telegraph... otherwise it's just Northwestern.

[preserve]

There seems to be less of the MSP patrols on the freeways. I haven't seen anyone pulled over for speeding or careless driving in ages. Did they reduce the need for the State Police or am I not on the road when they are on patrol. Anymore I try to avoid the expressways whenever possible
because of the excess speeding.

[sirrealone]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading a few years ago that state highway patrols were drastically reduced during the Great Recession, and I'm guessing that they haven't been restored. It didn't take people long to figure out that they could put the petal to the metal with little fear of punishment.

[Zacha341]

Yeah catch that Lodge south Wyoming curve too fast on black ice!! Good times indeed!

Remember, the Lodge was never an Interstate, and it pre-dates the Interstate System of 1956 by a couple years. Its lesser curve and sight-distance standards are why MDOT is reluctant to raise the 55-mph posted limit, the actual operating speed notwithstanding.

Perversely, the minimum speed on Michigan freeways is also 55 mph.

[ZenithCKLW]

The Lodge was never built to interstate standards on any portion. Indeed, the section between 696 and Wyoming runs along an old alignment of Northwestern Highway from the late 20's/early 30's, but was upgraded to freeway in the old surface highway's median in the early 60s after Interstate standards were developed, but was still not built to interstate standards, as the state built it with funds outside of the interstate system, as it was never intended to be an interstate. The portion of the true "Lodge" south/east of Wyoming was built between 1949 and about 1956 is younger alignment, but newer roadway than the old Northwestern segment. This was also never intended to be interstate. In fact, it was known as Business-Spur 696 from 1962 to 1970. The only reason it couldn't be signed as actual I-696 is because it was not interstate standard.

Anyways, I believe expressways should be signed for a speed as high as natural visibility allows. Meaning in wide open and straight sections of highway like on US-127 north of Lansing, yes, it is safe to go very fast. On the Lodge Freeway with tight curves and poor peripheral visibility, hell no: keep it 55. The problem is that 55 is so dangerous because you're in the minority. Either go 55, feeling good about yourself for driving the speed limit and risk getting smashed into, or go 70 to go with the flow of traffic and risk getting a ticket. This difference in speed is why I avoid the Lodge, Southfield, and Ford Freeways.

[Zacha341]

In R-Oak, sometimes there's a state car at the bottom of the southbound Woodward/ 696 underpass! Like premium cheese to mice!! Most don't slow down in time before they notice the trooper on right shoulder!

There seems to be less of the MSP patrols on the freeways. I haven't seen anyone pulled over for speeding or careless driving in ages. Did they reduce the need for the State Police or am I not on the road when they are on patrol....

[jackie5275]

There seems to be less of the MSP patrols on the freeways. I haven't seen anyone pulled over for speeding or careless driving in ages. Did they reduce the need for the State Police or am I not on the road when they are on patrol. Anymore I try to avoid the expressways whenever possible
because of the excess speeding.

I see them a few times a week on I-94 on the stretch between the airport and the Detroit city limit. They seem to have replaced the Allen Park police who used to sit in the medians.

[Bigdd]

Call us crazy but, I'm with you on that. 55 mph, people go 65. 70 mph, they go 80.

That's not really correct.

When speed limit was 55, people went 72.

Now that it's 70,.. people go 75.

And there's a reason,.. it's called "Reasonable and Prudent"

The SCIENCE is,.. that people generally go the R&P speed of a road. A few will go over, and a few will go under [[esp the elderly, and those with no license / insurance, or a lot of tickets on their license).

There's a speed that "feels" most comfortable to drivers,.. and all the studies prove that the vast majority of drivers will drive about that speed.

So the LAW in Michigan [[and pretty much every state in the U.S.) STATES that the speed MUST be set based on a traffic engineering study of the road,.. and then the median 84 or 85% used to determine the posted speed.


In other words,. they place those 2 black rubber hoses across the road [[which are used to measure the speeds cars go down a road) and the data results in a traffic engineering study. THEN,.. based on the speed of free-flowing traffic at the fastest point of the road, they throw out the fastest 8% and the slowest 8%,.. then average the remaining 84% and round to the nearest 5 mph.

BY LAW,. that is what the speed MUST be. The cities DO NOT have the authority to post otherwise. I.E. the legal speed on the Lodge is about 70 mph. And the 55 mph signs are all illegal and not legally enforceable. If you take it to court,.. and manage to get an honest judge, any speeding ticket below 70 mph will get tossed out.

[Bigdd]

In R-Oak, sometimes there's a state car at the bottom of the southbound Woodward slop under 696! Like premium cheese to mice!! Most don't slow down in time before they notice car on right shoulder!

That's actually a Huntington Woods cop. When the freeway went in,.. like 1/2 of Huntington Woods was bull-dozed. That underpass is pretty much the only place they can generate ticket revenue. So when they're short of cash,.. they'll sit down there.

When you start under the bridge,. you can't see the spot where he hides [[just South of 696 on the left shoulder). So you have to look for brake lights from the cars ahead.

[dtowncitylover]

Northwestern is now either I-96 or I-696 isn't it?

No...Northwestern is the Lodge above 8 Mile technically all the way to 14 Mile when it ends. Though I think a lot of people, and I hear this on traffic reports all the time, use the Lodge for the portion below the Reuther and Northwestern above it.

[Wesley Mouch]

That's not really correct....BY LAW,. that is what the speed MUST be. The cities DO NOT have the authority to post otherwise. I.E. the legal speed on the Lodge is about 70 mph. And the 55 mph signs are all illegal and not legally enforceable. If you take it to court,.. and manage to get an honest judge, any speeding ticket below 70 mph will get tossed out.

I always thought that the reduction to 65 & 55 was mandated federally. And that it had to do with being inside certain kinds of urban environments.

Also, I'd be surprised if that law for speed limits does not take into account the quality and the R&P speed for entrance/exit ramps. A freeway where the 'thru' driver goes 75 R&P but an entering car goes 45 R&P would seem unsafe on the surface. No? The Lodge esp. in the former James Cousins stretch in Detroit has fairly short ramps, it seems.

[Meddle]

Anyways, I believe expressways should be signed for a speed as high as natural visibility allows. Meaning in wide open and straight sections of highway like on US-127 north of Lansing, yes, it is safe to go very fast.

Whose 'natural visibility'? Yours? Mine? Aunt Ester's?


Higher speeds may be safer for some drivers in some vehicles under some conditions. Not for all drivers in any vehicle under any conditions. Since there are so many variables, traffic laws must be standardized. A vehicle with a well trained driver in a well maintained vehicle running 90MPH and a lesser qualified driver in an older vehicle running 50 do not belong in the same road space.



And forget about the babbling Double DD. See prior post history to understand why.

[Meddle]

I've always know the Lodge to be in the city only, ending at 8 Mile. I've never seen anything official or semi official to say otherwise.

Also, while during my time there is WAS US10, it has been redesignated as M-10, a state highway, not a US highway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-10_%...gan_highway%29

I've never understood why cars were allowed to be sold and registered for use on public roads that were capable of speeds over 100 MPH. There is no reason for any passenger car to ever run over that on public roads, and even then only for short distances such as passing.

[313WX]

I've always know the Lodge to be in the city only, ending at 8 Mile. I've never seen anything official or semi official to say otherwise.

Also, while during my time there is WAS US10, it has been redesignated as M-10, a state highway, not a US highway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-10_%...gan_highway%29

I've never understood why cars were allowed to be sold and registered for use on public roads that were capable of speeds over 100 MPH. There is no reason for any passenger car to ever run over that on public roads, and even then only for short distances such as passing.

For the same reason big ass SUVs / Pickup Trucks are allowed to be sold and registered as passenger vehicles for use on public roads.

[Bliebs77]

I've always know the Lodge to be in the city only, ending at 8 Mile. I've never seen anything official or semi official to say otherwise.

Also, while during my time there is WAS US10, it has been redesignated as M-10, a state highway, not a US highway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-10_%...gan_highway%29

I've never understood why cars were allowed to be sold and registered for use on public roads that were capable of speeds over 100 MPH. There is no reason for any passenger car to ever run over that on public roads, and even then only for short distances such as passing.

So we can take our cars to the track.

[cmubryan]

No...Northwestern is the Lodge above 8 Mile technically all the way to 14 Mile when it ends. Though I think a lot of people, and I hear this on traffic reports all the time, use the Lodge for the portion below the Reuther and Northwestern above it.

The Lodge turns into Northwestern Hwy in Southfield just west of Telegraph [[the mixing bowl). East of Telegraph, Northwestern Hwy is the service drive for The Lodge.

I notice that as they replace more and more signs the old freeway names don’t make it on the new signs, just the route numbers do [[M-10 versus Lodge, Chrysler Freeway vs I-75). I think that’s very unfortunately because the unique freeway names are what makes us unique and how you know you are in The Detroit area.