Whitmer’s Road Fix

[Johnnny5]

An additional 45 cents per gallon tax would likely close lots of Michigan gas stations within 5 miles of the Ohio border. And probably every Michigan truck stop within 20.

[middetres]

You want to punish people just for having a vehicle even if they don't drive it? I have two, neither of which gets driven over 2,000 miles a year. You would be increasing my vehicle registration by something close to ten times even if I never started either car.


You'd probably also kill sales of trucks and SUVs. And since that's about all US carmakers still produce, you'd be driving sales to other brands. More plant closing and layoffs is what you want?


Seems like accountability would be more appropriate. Make sure road dollars are spent on roads and not transferred for other uses.

A Ford Expedition weighs less than 6,000lbs, but for math's sake, let's say it weighs 6,000lbs. That's $300/year registration at .05/lb.

Are you saying a $60,000 vehicle in Michigan costs less than $300 to register?

I believe it would be closer to $425 the first year. 10% reduction for the next 3 years.

Still cheaper paying $300 each year based on weight.

[Atticus]

An additional 45 cents per gallon tax would likely close lots of Michigan gas stations within 5 miles of the Ohio border. And probably every Michigan truck stop within 20.

Not likely. I am sure there are some who will drive an extra 15 minutes each way to save a few bucks, but most people value their time much more than the cost savings. Besides, the few people that would do it are probably already doing it today, as everyone knows gas is cheaper there today anyway.

[Meddle]

Are you saying a $60,000 vehicle in Michigan costs less than $300 to register?

I would never have a $60K vehicle. I've never paid much more than $6K, usually under $4K

[Meddle]

Not likely. I am sure there are some who will drive an extra 15 minutes each way to save a few bucks, but most people value their time much more than the cost savings.

There was a time when we drove from the far west side to Windsor to buy gas because it cost less to fill up, even with the bridge/tunnel tolls both ways.

[Sandhouse]

Some little-known facts about fuel taxes to correct points above:

The sales tax on fuel goes about 73 per cent to the School Aid Fund and most of the rest to revenue sharing, not the General Fund. Of course it is fungible with general funds. A little under 5% goes to transit.

A high fuel tax would affect gasoline sales near the state lines, but Diesel fuel would be unaffected. Interstate trucks pay fuel and weight-based taxes in proportion to the miles traveled in each state, receiving a credit for tax at the pump, so the tax at the pump is not a factor in choosing where to buy Diesel fuel--only the price before state taxes.

By my calculation, Ontario's taxes on gasoline are 56 cents [[US) in fuel tax and 90 cents in sales and other taxes per US gallon.

The surtax on electric cars would rise with the proposed fuel-tax increase, by $5 per penny of tax. This roughly equals the fuel tax not paid by a pure electric. For a plug-in hybrid, it's $2.50 per penny.

The registration tax on a new car is 6 tenths of a per cent of the list price, or $360 on a $60,000 car. Then the tax falls by 10% per year for the next three years of a car's life, and then stays at 0.0044 of the list price per year.

Michigan fuel and registration taxes must be spent for "transportation purposes" under the Constitution. The share for roads cannot be less than 90%, leaving a maximum of 10% for transit. The transit share is a bit over 9% now.

[Johnnny5]

Not likely. I am sure there are some who will drive an extra 15 minutes each way to save a few bucks, but most people value their time much more than the cost savings. Besides, the few people that would do it are probably already doing it today, as everyone knows gas is cheaper there today anyway.

We're not talking about "A few dollars". A semi typically carries about 250 gallons of diesel. So if they're close to empty that's well over $100 in savings filling up on the OH side if Whitmer's tax goes through. You don't think a trucker is going to hold off fueling up at Michigan stations to save over $100?

And closing stations wouldnt require all people to avoid filling up in Michigan, just enough to make them unprofitable. A tax difference this large would have major implications for all stations close to the border[[On both sides).

[Atticus]

We're not talking about "A few dollars". A semi typically carries about 250 gallons of diesel. So if they're close to empty that's well over $100 in savings filling up on the OH side if Whitmer's tax goes through. You don't think a trucker is going to hold off fueling up at Michigan stations to save over $100?

And closing stations wouldnt require all people to avoid filling up in Michigan, just enough to make them unprofitable. A tax difference this large would have major implications for all stations close to the border[[On both sides).

Then why aren’t they filling up in Ohio today? How are those border gas stations in Michigan making money today, with gas being cheaper in Ohio already?

By filling up on the Ohio side today [[pre 45cent tax), those same truckers are already saving $30-40. Gas is already cheaper in Ohio, so those truckers aren’t filling up here already. The main point is, if those truckers [[or anyone) is or will be playing the save money by filling up in Ohio game, they are probably already doing it today.

[Sandhouse]

Oops, bad calculations. The TOTAL of all taxes on gasoline in Ontario is around 90 US cents per US gallon, given today's price at London of $0.95 [[Can.) per litre or $2.69 US. So the Whitmer proposal would make the total of Michigan + US taxes higher than in Ontario.

But truckers are still unaffected by taxes at the pump owing to the per-mile basis. Frequently, even the pump price itself does not apply if a truck line has a long-term fuel contract at a fixed price with a supplier.

[middetres]

I would never have a $60K vehicle. I've never paid much more than $6K, usually under $4K

You said it would decimate the sales of trucks and SUVs. I just showed that it would be cheaper to pay by weight.

That $60,000 SUV even bought used in 10 years for $6,000 still would have a yearly registration of over $300 if done by price. Registration only goes down 10%/year for the first 3 years then stays at the lowest rate from there.

So your $4-6,000 max you'd pay for a vehicle means it's used, so the registration is pretty much tied to 70% of its retail price when new.

[Scottathew]

Slow Children. Motorists have already been taxed for years. The reason the roads are bad is because the monies collected for years have been put into the General Fund, then spent on other things and not on roads and repair. So, the solution is more taxes?

If you propose we cut funding somewhere else, then propose what gets cut. We either have to cut other things or bring in more funds. I'm not opposed to either, but would want to hear what would be cut before we went that route.

[Wesley Mouch]

Not a bad discussion, this. I'm impressed Dyers. Some good facts on taxes.

I apologize for my rhetorical and angry post. Hard not to get ones back up sometimes. 45c per gallon tax just made me think that Dems will be Dems. And the Dems must be applauded for their current argument that we need higher taxes. I don't agree, but at least they're being honest about it.

All that said, I'm on the fence a bit on this issue. Seems like Michigan does need to adjust road funding. Not sure all gas tax is the way to go. But after I read that the 45c was pretty much a bi-partisan committee agreement that we need to get there to fund, I'm warming to the idea.

But I also think you have to keep your costs within reasonable structures. If we are to have the highest tax rate in the nation for gas, that's also a sign that something's out of adjustment. Maybe the school monies need to come from elsewhere, and let's keep the gas tax just for transportation. Maybe transit should be funded elsewhere too.

I like this discussion, but too much on the tax side. I'm curious on the cost side. Where does Michigan fit into the maintenance cost per mile of roads? Are we getting value for our money, or are the problems with cost disease at the Department of Roads.

Also, where is Michigan in the roads per resident ratio? Being that huge parts of Michigan are very sparsely populated, it may be that our road budget needs to be higher per person. [[No way 230,000 yoopers are covering cost of 600+ miles of US2 and M28/US41.). We might be more like Montana or Idaho... with high road winter wear and a lot of land per capita.

[Hypestyles]

seems like the GOP legislators have no ideas on new income sources to boost revenue-- so the likely proposal from them would be to cut out regulatory departments and social/health services.

This is going to turn out to be a very problematic negotiation and the results may only bring in a trickle of the needed funds, in the long term.

[hhockey]

I am all for fixing the roads, but when you have the 5th higest gas tax in the nation and still the worse roads, which have not been fixed, how is having the highest gas tax in the nation going to get them fixed any better?

[Burnsie]

And they don't "rebuild" the roads every few years. They mill the asphalt down a bit, taking the tops off the bumps. Then what appears to be at most an inch of asphalt is put on. All the old joints and cracks in the underlying original concrete are still there, soon to appear again. This is exactly what MDOT did on BL I-69 in East Lansing last year. Not even six months later, and it's full of cracks.

It also happens on 100% asphalt roads, like M-61 in Clare County. A 15 mile or so stretch was repaved late last summer and early fall, and it's already full of cracks and noticeable bumps. I mean, why even bother?

[Meddle]

Though it would be a pittance in the grand budget scheme and largely symbolic, I support a significant reduction in executive salaries in Lansing. Cut from the top down.

[Atticus]

And they don't "rebuild" the roads every few years. They mill the asphalt down a bit, taking the tops off the bumps. Then what appears to be at most an inch of asphalt is put on. All the old joints and cracks in the underlying original concrete are still there, soon to appear again. This is exactly what MDOT did on BL I-69 in East Lansing last year. Not even six months later, and it's full of cracks.

It also happens on 100% asphalt roads, like M-61 in Clare County. A 15 mile or so stretch was repaved late last summer and early fall, and it's already full of cracks and noticeable bumps. I mean, why even bother?

Because it is the law that the road agency maintain the road in serviceable condition.

The long story short is they are legally required to do something, but don’t have the funds to do it correctly. The engineer knows going in the cheap fix will only last a few years, but it is the choice they have to financially make.

If there is a hole in the roof, you put a tarp over it. If you do not have the money to fix the roof, you end up buying another tarp when the first wears out. And on and on. Yes wasting money on perpetual tarps is not the best, but better than no tarp and have everything underneath it get ruined. So because the road agencies have among the least to spend on repairs nationally, we keep getting road “tarps”.

2 guys walk into a grocery store. One spends $100 and one spends $10. The one who spent $100 walks out with more groceries. It is not that hard of a concept people!

[One Shot]

How about cracking down on RAMPANT prescription abuse, frivolous lawsuits, phony injuries and the crooked lawyers that promote it? I get so irritated when I hear these kinds of stories and see so many people with handicapped plates. Think of all the back room deals with politicians that STILL goes on? The money these clowns get donated to them and waste on elections just to get in office! Think of the millions if not billions of dollars that could be used towards the roads. I'm sick of dead beat leaches of society falling back on the system that we the working stiffs pay in to. I want my money back!
I sure as hell will not vote for any kind of gas tax to fund roads. I'll take my chances and put up with it.

[Richard]

Has anybody been following this project where they are incorporating recycled tires in the road construction?

https://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo...n_constru.html

You would think that with the freeze thaw cycles if the pavement had some sort of flexibility in it that would make some difference,not that it would be feasible to coat everything with flex seal.

Not just Detroit though every major city has road problems,even worse if one moves from the burbs with newer roads to the more urban areas,I have been dealing with potholes and bad roads for over 35 years in multiple states,the only thing that seems to change outside of more taxes to not fix them is the cars have gotten smaller and easier for the roads to eat them.

[RO_Resident]

I am all for fixing the roads, but when you have the 5th higest gas tax in the nation and still the worse roads, which have not been fixed, how is having the highest gas tax in the nation going to get them fixed any better?

Readers Digest version of what has been posted above...

There is a state excise tax [[26 cents/gal) AND sales tax [[6%) on the sale of fuel.

Constitutionally, car registrations and gas/diesel excise monies must go to a transportation purpose, i.e., into roads, transit, etc. When we were at 19 cents/gal we were at the bottom of the pack for the excise fuel tax compared to other states. With the recent increase, we are in the middle of the pack.

The sales tax portion goes into a separate pot. The majority goes into the School Aid Fund and to revenue sharing. With the addition of the sales tax, we are near the top for all taxes placed on the sale/use of fuel.

It is not possible to flex the bulk of the sales tax portion back into roads.

Also note, the legislature started supplementing road funding with general fund monies about a decade ago. At that time, the state was in danger of not being able to provide 20% match for all federal transportation dollars made available to the state. The legislature has continued to supplementing transportation expenditures with GF dollars because of the overwhelming needs. The supplemental dollars could end in a few years under the bargain that passed a few years ago.

[Burnsie]

Atticus-- I've lived in this state all of my 39 years, I know what the score is with the roads. It just gets more frustrating every year and my last sentence was sarcasm, you know? I wasn't specifically saying it's M-DOT's fault that the roads are repaired the way they are.

[Richard]

An additional 45 cents per gallon tax would likely close lots of Michigan gas stations within 5 miles of the Ohio border. And probably every Michigan truck stop within 20.

There is also the boating industry that is heavy in Michigan,that will be effected.

Right now your marine fuel costs are the same as in Florida,$3.49,in my case .45 adds $123.75 to a fill up,it does not seem like much,but when the prices went to $4 per gallon it impacted the market heavily.Worse then the dump your suv craze.

[archfan]

There was a time when we drove from the far west side to Windsor to buy gas because it cost less to fill up, even with the bridge/tunnel tolls both ways.

You must not have valued your time very much. Unless you enjoyed the trip; then it was your hobby.

[archfan]

How about cracking down on RAMPANT prescription abuse, frivolous lawsuits, phony injuries and the crooked lawyers that promote it? I get so irritated when I hear these kinds of stories and see so many people with handicapped plates. Think of all the back room deals with politicians that STILL goes on? The money these clowns get donated to them and waste on elections just to get in office! Think of the millions if not billions of dollars that could be used towards the roads. I'm sick of dead beat leaches of society falling back on the system that we the working stiffs pay in to. I want my money back!
I sure as hell will not vote for any kind of gas tax to fund roads. I'll take my chances and put up with it.

How would you fix those?

[archfan]

And closing stations wouldnt require all people to avoid filling up in Michigan, just enough to make them unprofitable. A tax difference this large would have major implications for all stations close to the border[[On both sides).

I grew up near the Ohio border, and people there have been trying to game this for a while. It makes sense to go to Ohio for people living very near the border - the gas stations on the Michigan side have already disappeared. If you're farther than that, most conclude that it's not worth blowing an hour and 2 gallons of gas to get a lower price.