Whitmer’s Road Fix

**Pat001** · March-07-19, 05:18 AM

You propose a 45 cents/gal tax hike so everyone will feel like they're getting a break when the tax goes up by "only" 20 cents/gal.

One thing we could do to stop roads from getting worse is lower the max vehicle weight limit from 120,000 pounds to 60,000 pounds, which is the weight limit in Indiana and Ohio. Regardless the number of axles, a road flexes under that much weight and it breaks down. Our roads aren’t twice as strong as other states. There’s no valid reason why our weight limit is double that of other states.

**sirrealone** · March-07-19, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Pat001

One thing we could do to stop roads from getting worse is lower the max vehicle weight limit from 120,000 pounds to 60,000 pounds, which is the weight limit in Indiana and Ohio. Regardless the number of axles, a road flexes under that much weight and it breaks down. Our roads aren’t twice as strong as other states. There’s no valid reason why our weight limit is double that of other states.

I agree that this should be done, but I think the expectations of what this will accomplish need to be tempered. If a road lasts 25 years today, this measure might get the road to last 27 or 28 years instead.

I think there are a good number of people who think that if we lower these limits, then all of our road problems will be solved. They won't.

Besides, the damage is already done. The roads need to be rebuilt one way or another. It's all about money to get it done.

**enio** · March-07-19, 08:38 AM

Like Donny Trump, if the facts don't support your position, make something up that does. The weight limits on Indiana and Ohio roads are 80,000 lbs. On toll roads, the weight limit goes to 90,000 lbs for a tractor-trailer, and 124,000 lbs for doubles.

https://www.trucking.org/ATA%20Docs/...ght%20Laws.pdf

**enio** · March-07-19, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by sirrealone

I agree that this should be done, but I think the expectations of what this will accomplish need to be tempered. If a road lasts 25 years today, this measure might get the road to last 27 or 28 years instead.

I think there are a good number of people who think that if we lower these limits, then all of our road problems will be solved. They won't.

Besides, the damage is already done. The roads need to be rebuilt one way or another. It's all about money to get it done.

It's already possible to build roads that last 30 - 50 years. However, they will cost considerably more than current roads. The Free Press pubished an article about the price of better constructed roads. It can be found here - https://www.freep.com/story/news/loc...lity/98683742/

Considering the negative response to the Whitmer road funding plan, I don't think a plan for improved road construction has a chance of being implemented. People appear to be willing to put up with blown tires and damaged suspension components before they pay an additional $0.45 a gallon.

Toll roads and congestion pricing still remain alternatives for additional road funding. California has already implemented congestion pricing in LA and San Francisco. If you want to use the HOV lanes on the Harbor Freeway at peak times, it'll cost $1.40 a mile. Both sides benefit. Single occupancy vehicles get a faster trip, and Caltrans gets more money for road improvements and transit improvements.

Other cities have adopted congestion pricing. Why not Detroit, especially if some of the revenues help fund mass transit.

**Sandhouse** · March-07-19, 09:25 AM

In today's news, former state official Doug Rothwell made the connection between auto-insurance costs and the fuel tax, pointing out that if the legislature succeeded in cutting premiums, especially in Detroit, it would more than make up for the additional 45 cents/gallon fee. The Governor said she was "intrigued."

The Republican Senate leader said that insurance is "a stand-along issue" and should be tackled before fixing the roads. Meaning that this is the latest excuse for doing nothing.

They will do nothing, as they have for many years, because if they fixed car insurance it would choke off the fat flow of campaign cash from the care providers, medical transportation providers, ambulance chasers, and hospitals on the one side, and the insurance companies on the other. As long as these powerful lobbies are making big payoffs, the legislature has no incentive to produce a solution.

The Whitmer tax increase would add about 75 cents/day to a typical driver's road-use bill of about $1.10/day. [[Figure your bill at your gallons X 25.9 cents state gas tax, 18.4 federal tax, plus your license-plate tax). That's a big increase, but if you pay $2,000 or $3,000/year for car insurance, as many people do in Detroit, that's $5 to $8/day that doesn't buy you a damn thing. The gas tax is peanuts by comparison.

**Honky Tonk** · March-07-19, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by Sandhouse

In today's news, former state official Doug Rothwell made the connection between auto-insurance costs and the fuel tax, pointing out that if the legislature succeeded in cutting premiums, especially in Detroit, it would more than make up for the additional 45 cents/gallon fee. The Governor said she was "intrigued."

The Republican Senate leader said that insurance is "a stand-along issue" and should be tackled before fixing the roads. Meaning that this is the latest excuse for doing nothing.

They will do nothing, as they have for many years, because if they fixed car insurance it would choke off the fat flow of campaign cash from the care providers, medical transportation providers, ambulance chasers, and hospitals on the one side, and the insurance companies on the other. As long as these powerful lobbies are making big payoffs, the legislature has no incentive to produce a solution.

The Whitmer tax increase would add about 75 cents/day to a typical driver's road-use bill of about $1.10/day. [[Figure your bill at your gallons X 25.9 cents state gas tax, 18.4 federal tax, plus your license-plate tax). That's a big increase, but if you pay $2,000 or $3,000/year for car insurance, as many people do in Detroit, that's $5 to $8/day that doesn't buy you a damn thing. The gas tax is peanuts by comparison.

The problem, again, is the increase isn't for "fixing the roads", only a small percentage of it is. The rest is for schools, social programs, etc. Apparently throwing more money @ the education system will somehow produce the desired results.

[[yeah, I know, "you hate our small children, Honky, Honky, Honky...")

**sirrealone** · March-07-19, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

The problem, again, is the increase isn't for "fixing the roads", only a small percentage of it is. The rest is for schools, social programs, etc. Apparently throwing more money @ the education system will somehow produce the desired results.

[[yeah, I know, "you hate our small children, Honky, Honky, Honky...")

I believe that's incorrect.

The fuel tax has to be dedicated to transportation costs. It cannot be diverted.

The sales tax portion of any fuel sale goes into the general fund. This is the portion that gets allocated out to schools and such.

It's the fuel tax that's going up, not the sales tax. So, the bottom line is that every penny of this increase would be dedicated to transportation funding.

**sirrealone** · March-07-19, 10:43 AM

I heard that the balance in the catastrophic claims fund is upward of $20 billion dollars. I think each driver has to pay $180 or so per year into this fund. While I'm pretty sure they can't draw from this to pay for roads, it seems that they could cap the total fund balance and adjust accordingly what drivers are paying into it as a way to offset a portion of the out-of-pocket costs that the fuel tax would create.

**Bigdd** · March-07-19, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Pat001

One thing we could do to stop roads from getting worse is lower the max vehicle weight limit from 120,000 pounds to 60,000 pounds, which is the weight limit in Indiana and Ohio.

That would only affect the trucks doing in-state transport. The trucks that are heading in or out of Ohio already have to be at that weight or lower,.. and ones going over a bridge to Canada already have to meet the weights for the bridges and Canada.

So this only helps on roads between plants in Michigan. And how many roads in your neighborhood really have heavy steel haulers etc on them? Just a couple I wager.

I think the effect of the truck weight limits is way over-blown.

**Wesley Mouch** · March-07-19, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by sirrealone

I believe that's incorrect.

The fuel tax has to be dedicated to transportation costs. It cannot be diverted.

The sales tax portion of any fuel sale goes into the general fund. This is the portion that gets allocated out to schools and such.

It's the fuel tax that's going up, not the sales tax. So, the bottom line is that every penny of this increase would be dedicated to transportation funding.

This argument is precisely the argument made on the Lottery. Yes, 100% dedication. All funds from Lottery go to schools.

[[But then the politicians took an equivalent amount of funding from the schools. Voila! Money dedicated. Funds diverted. All is good.)

On a broader point, after chewing on my agreement with Wittmer....

I'm concerned that little discussion is about how one would increase funding. Perhaps the Governor has outlined this. It is often a problem with you pour money over something. Doubling revenue to roads? What could go wrong?

[[One answer is that roads get more money, but some other diversion is going to occur.)

Loosely related... is Whitmer on board with the New Green Deal? If so, we only have to deal with the tax for 10 years.

**Richard** · March-07-19, 02:14 PM

The new green deal has to be paid for,so more taxes on top of the existing ones.

its not really going anywhere anyways and the trillions that it would cost if it could be raised,should really go towards infrastructure and mass transit.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...-ocasio-cortez

It looks good in the media anyways.

**Honky Tonk** · March-07-19, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

The new green deal has to be paid for,so more taxes on top of the existing ones.

its not really going anywhere anyways and the trillions that it would cost if it could be raised,should really go towards infrastructure and mass transit.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...-ocasio-cortez

It looks good in the media anyways.

Houston, we have a problem...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/could-ale...115059899.html

**Jason** · March-07-19, 03:55 PM

It's easier to scale this kind of spending because there are a lot of projects that need to happen and so they just have to start bidding out the work to do them. A lot of the money could just be spent on small basic maintenance projects that have been skipped.

There are also projects already in the pipeline that they could increase spending on in order to build higher quality and longer lasting roads. A resurfacing project could be upgraded to reconstruction project or a reconstruction project could be upgraded into a higher quality reconstruction project.

**softailrider** · March-07-19, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Houston, we have a problem...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/could-ale...115059899.html

I’m no AOC fan but that has the hands Democratic Party and their dirty tricks all over it. AOC is getting too big for her britches, at too fast a pace. Nancy and Chuck can’t be happy.

**archfan** · March-08-19, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Jason

It's easier to scale this kind of spending because there are a lot of projects that need to happen and so they just have to start bidding out the work to do them. A lot of the money could just be spent on small basic maintenance projects that have been skipped.

There are also projects already in the pipeline that they could increase spending on in order to build higher quality and longer lasting roads. A resurfacing project could be upgraded to reconstruction project or a reconstruction project could be upgraded into a higher quality reconstruction project.

I only hope that MDOT doesn't see more money, and decide to do more mega projects like the I75 and I94 rebuilds/expansions. Existing roads need to take priority.

**Gistok** · March-08-19, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by archfan

I only hope that MDOT doesn't see more money, and decide to do more mega projects like the I75 and I94 rebuilds/expansions. Existing roads need to take priority.

The I-94 widening has already been happening... just not on the massive scale originally planned [[unless they get fed money). Each of the I-94 roadway bridges along the I-96 to Conner route has to be replaced, even the train bridges... since most of these bridges are already 60+ years old. So far the Woodward, Van Dyke and Gratiot bridges have been rebuilt to a wider span that allows for 4 lanes of traffic underneath... even though there are still only 3 lanes.

P.S. All the newer bridges east of Conner [[including Moross, Vernier/8 Mile, and the Mile Rd. bridges beyond) have already been replaced. So some of these older I-94 mid-city bridges are in bad need of replacement.

**Gistok** · March-08-19, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by softailrider

I’m no AOC fan but that has the hands Democratic Party and their dirty tricks all over it. AOC is getting too big for her britches, at too fast a pace. Nancy and Chuck can’t be happy.

I'm no fan of hers either... but Fox News quoted " a conservative group alleges".... so that means IT MUST BE TRUE!!

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...inance-n980121

**Wesley Mouch** · March-08-19, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Houston, we have a problem...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/could-ale...115059899.html

Not a problem. A feature.

AOC is simply starting socialism early.

Redistribution of wealth to the politically connected is a central feature of all socialist governments.

If she is convicted, it will be proof that the system is corrupt and is the enemy of the people.

[[So we gotta talk about roads here, since that's the thread. So are we scheduling the drop of road taxes to zero to coincide with the launch in 10 years of high-speed rail from downtown Detroit to Northland Mall?)

**Honky Tonk** · March-08-19, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Not a problem. A feature.

AOC is simply starting socialism early.

Redistribution of wealth to the politically connected is a central feature of all socialist governments.

If she is convicted, it will be proof that the system is corrupt and is the enemy of the people.

[[So we gotta talk about roads here, since that's the thread. So are we scheduling the drop of road taxes to zero to coincide with the launch in 10 years of high-speed rail from downtown Detroit to Northland Mall?)

It'll make sense after all the planes are grounded. Thank you sir, I needed that. Now, back to the devil with the blue dress, blue dress on.

**Richard** · March-08-19, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bigdd

That would only affect the trucks doing in-state transport. The trucks that are heading in or out of Ohio already have to be at that weight or lower,.. and ones going over a bridge to Canada already have to meet the weights for the bridges and Canada.

So this only helps on roads between plants in Michigan. And how many roads in your neighborhood really have heavy steel haulers etc on them? Just a couple I wager.

I think the effect of the truck weight limits is way over-blown.

Add that big trucks are already taxed federally and state according to weight to make up for the extra wear and tear on the roads,they are way different then like us and a private car.

**Richard** · March-08-19, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

It'll make sense after all the planes are grounded. Thank you sir, I needed that. Now, back to the devil with the blue dress, blue dress on.

Interesting enough her headquarters was 1 block away from the train station but she still spent $38,000 on uber,lift and air flights,demanding private jet for speaking arraignments.

Only the little people should give up their cars and farting cows.

**Honky Tonk** · March-08-19, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Richard

Interesting enough her headquarters was 1 block away from the train station but she still spent $38,000 on uber,lift and air flights,demanding private jet for speaking arraignments.

Only the little people should give up their cars and farting cows.

You're tied with Wesley now.....

**RO_Resident** · March-08-19, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by archfan

I only hope that MDOT doesn't see more money, and decide to do more mega projects like the I75 and I94 rebuilds/expansions. Existing roads need to take priority.

Back-of-the-envelope calculations
47% of the money is dedicated to interstates and other freeways. MDOT has exclusive jurisdiction over all of those roads.

30% is dedicated to principal arterials. Best guess is MDOT has jurisdiction over 40% of the lane miles of principal arterials in the state.

47% + 12% [[.3 * .4) = ~60% of the funding will be going to MDOT.

**O3H** · March-17-19, 02:42 PM

Quick Fix - Temporary Fix - prevent more damage

https://www.geveko-markings.com/products/chipfill/

**stasu1213** · March-17-19, 06:56 PM

Whither need to go after the contractors that uses cheap asphalt material for these roads. I think that it is a racket and kickback is given to the officials who select these contractors for the job at least in my option. She could say “fix the damn roads” but the money will still go to the same people who only lay down a one year fix so that they could be called back and milk the system again of it’s money by laying down more cheap asphalt. It will continue to be a waste of ou tax dollars down this bottomless funnel