I know how to fix the roads and you do too

**Detroitdave** · February-14-19, 10:35 PM

We all know what needs to be done and how to fix the roads ,but no one wants to address the 10,000 pound elephant in the room.
How to pay for it and we all know the answer to this to but no one wants to say it.
responsible folks in Lansing , the truck loads need to be much lower,and here is the real answer .......
TOLL ROADS ! Every state that has good roads has toll roads.Toll roads on 696 and 275.
Also make it impossible to use the money for ANYTHING ELSE BUT ROADS !!! , NO you can't use the money for ANYTHING ELSE , I don't care what you need it for ONLY ROADS !
If we need money for something else, ie schools ect, figure out another way to raise funds for it !
There problem solved , next

**O3H** · February-14-19, 11:47 PM

Perhaps you have heard of Matty Moroun and CenTra Inc. ?
Central Transport in Warren, a major city within Michigan ?
http://www.centraltransportint.com/c...sorelease.aspx

Any lightbulbs go off in peoples mind ........and who controls what !

**DetroitSoldier** · February-15-19, 01:03 AM

I am hit or miss on the toll road idea. I see the value they would bring to road funding. But many of the major toll roads in our region like the turnpikes in Ohio and PA bring in a ton of out of state money from pass through traffic. It's certainly not the majority, but it is a damn fair amount. Even the Chicago toll roads earn a significant amount of money from Wisconsin and Indiana residents.

If we raise the gas tax AND charge tolls on some roads, it seems like over-taxation. Our geographical location means most people are not using our state as a pass through. Therefore we would continue to drain Michigan residents instead of capturing funds from other areas.

**goggomobil** · February-15-19, 03:03 AM

https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/pol...laws/app_b.htm

Michigan has, by over 20,000 lbs., the highest limit in the US. Our maximum is more than double than some states.

Years ago, working for an excavator on a very hot summer day, I saw blacktop visibly squirm under a gravel train that was heaping full of 6A stone. In the 1990s, the right lane of eastbound I-96 between Kent Lk. Rd. and Milford Rd. had ruts in the asphalt that were inches deep from heavy trucks going up that grade.

Hey, governor, fix the damned lobbyists.

**Meddle** · February-15-19, 03:34 AM

No toll roads, ever, anywhere.

**dtowncitylover** · February-15-19, 06:08 AM

Toll M5. What a worthless mega-highway.

**Detroitdave** · February-15-19, 07:05 AM

Ok fine , keep raising gas taxes , dont use that money for roads and using the money for other things and keep fixing your cars and the cycle continues , you do know this is futile , the state has been doing this since the 70’s , keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different results.

**EGrant** · February-15-19, 07:07 AM

If not tolls, then what? A $1 gas tax? $400 vehicle registration fee?

We'll never approve a plan to pay to even maintain our roads, let alone fix them. This problem isn't going away, and I can't wait to see what half-hearted, bare minimum plan is approved to keep playing pothole patch whack-a-mole until the state returns to old growth forests.

**Pat001** · February-15-19, 07:49 AM

I have an EZ Pass for toll roads in the Northeast and a Sunpass for toll roads in southern states. My tolls add up to about $500.00/yr, which is in addition to road use taxes, sales tax on gasoline, registration, etc. Those electronic passes make it easy for states to nickel and dime you and it adds up!

Currently, Michigan has shitty roads, but no tolls. Implement tolls and we'll have the same shitty roads AND tolls.

Limiting the gross combination vehicle weight in MI is one suggestion that makes sense. The weight limit in MI is 120,000 pounds. That's double the weight limit of states that surround MI. A road flexes under a 120,0000-pound truck and this flexing breaks down pavement.

**313WX** · February-15-19, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitdave

We all know what needs to be done and how to fix the roads ,but no one wants to address the 10,000 pound elephant in the room.
How to pay for it and we all know the answer to this to but no one wants to say it.
responsible folks in Lansing , the truck loads need to be much lower,and here is the real answer .......
TOLL ROADS ! Every state that has good roads has toll roads.Toll roads on 696 and 275.
Also make it impossible to use the money for ANYTHING ELSE BUT ROADS !!! , NO you can't use the money for ANYTHING ELSE , I don't care what you need it for ONLY ROADS !
If we need money for something else, ie schools ect, figure out another way to raise funds for it !
There problem solved , next

Georgia doesn't have toll roads and has some of the best roads in the country.

**sirrealone** · February-15-19, 08:01 AM

The problem is that we don't put the sales tax collected on fuel toward roads. This is standard practice in most states [[I think over 70%). That is the real reason that we collect some of the highest taxes at the pump in the country yet people then don't understand how we aren't spending enough.

There was a ballot proposal a few years ago that would have fixed this. It would have funneled all sales tax to road funding. It would have raised the sales tax by 1% to fill the gap created.

That would have given us the funding levels needed.

But what happened? The voters turned it down.

People voted it down because they didn't want higher taxes. But then they complain about the bad roads. They complain about paying for new tires and rims. I guess paying more taxes is evil, but paying the tire shop the same money is somehow better?

I'm a Republican. I shouldn't ever vote for or advocate higher taxes, but I'm also a sensible person. In my heart I know that the biggest thing that will help fix our roads is more funding. The states around us that have better road spend more per citizen than we do. You can muddy the waters by pointing at other factors, which I'm sure have an effect, but the number one factor that will determine the condition of the roads is funding. Pure and simple.

Reducing the weight limits will help, but we still need to fix the roads.

**ndavies** · February-15-19, 08:07 AM

You cannot just take a federal funded highway and turn it into a toll road. If you used the Feds money the road has to stay free. If you do attempt to turn a federal funded road into ta toll road, you have to pay all the money you received from the feds back. So you can either get money from the feds or money from tolls but not both. We couldn't afford to pay back all the feds money we've used to build the freeways.

**Jimaz** · February-15-19, 08:41 AM

I love these guerrilla pothole repair stories.

Portland Anarchists Want to Fix Your Street's Potholes

"Guerilla" road repair crews take on Michigan's potholes

**Atticus** · February-15-19, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by sirrealone

The problem is that we don't put the sales tax collected on fuel toward roads. This is standard practice in most states [[I think over 70%). That is the real reason that we collect some of the highest taxes at the pump in the country yet people then don't understand how we aren't spending enough.

There was a ballot proposal a few years ago that would have fixed this. It would have funneled all sales tax to road funding. It would have raised the sales tax by 1% to fill the gap created.

That would have given us the funding levels needed.

But what happened? The voters turned it down.

People voted it down because they didn't want higher taxes. But then they complain about the bad roads. They complain about paying for new tires and rims. I guess paying more taxes is evil, but paying the tire shop the same money is somehow better?

I'm a Republican. I shouldn't ever vote for or advocate higher taxes, but I'm also a sensible person. In my heart I know that the biggest thing that will help fix our roads is more funding. The states around us that have better road spend more per citizen than we do. You can muddy the waters by pointing at other factors, which I'm sure have an effect, but the number one factor that will determine the condition of the roads is funding. Pure and simple.

Reducing the weight limits will help, but we still need to fix the roads.

Thank you for posting an informed and well thought out post, amongst a thread of several “point the finger the other way” comments. I agree with you 100%.

As far as the weight limits, I want them changed for one reason... to shut up all of these useless “Allowing overweight trucks is the main reason Michigan roads suck” arguments. But since so many are hell bent on this belief, let’s look at this in full context.

The first point is, in reality the vast majority of these “super heavy” trucks come in two forms... they are either 1) the farmer driving his harvest crop to mill/grain elevator, or 2) Timber trucks in the U.P and north of US-10. This info comes from the Michigan State Police Motor Carrier division. They are not the big semi truck you see driving down I-94. Most of those semis are driving to other states anyway, so they have to obey the laws of the places they are going.

The second point, is you can legally lower the limit, and the trucks mentioned above are still going to overload their weights anyway because 1) it is financially worth it, 2) these “heavy” trucks are mostly driving on rural 2-lanes in the middle of nowhere where they are very unlikely to get caught, 3) these trucks are so infrequent that the damage they incurr is mostly negligible to begin with.

So my take is just legally lower the weight limits, eliminate one big talking point from the no-tax people, and know that it is likely to make no significant difference on the weight of the vast majority of vehicles using the highways anyway.

**Detroitdave** · February-15-19, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Georgia doesn't have toll roads and has some of the best roads in the country.

True ,but they don't have the extreme freeze thaw cycle, and weight loads.

**Detroitdave** · February-15-19, 09:29 AM

Hello ndavies and thank you for that info. Well how about fast track lanes on federal roads like this

https://thetollroads.com/accounts/fastrak/california

Originally Posted by ndavies

You cannot just take a federal funded highway and turn it into a toll road. If you used the Feds money the road has to stay free. If you do attempt to turn a federal funded road into ta toll road, you have to pay all the money you received from the feds back. So you can either get money from the feds or money from tolls but not both. We couldn't afford to pay back all the feds money we've used to build the freeways.

**Scottathew** · February-15-19, 09:47 AM

I want to fund the roads. Raise my taxes to do it. Having things costs money. We need to efficiently use the money that we have, but it's simply not enough right now.

Traditionally I have not been a fan of toll roads, but it might help to start reduce the suburban sprawl and encourage folks to live close to their jobs, which would be a good thing.

**Sandhouse** · February-15-19, 10:02 AM

There's a lot of folklore in circulation about truck weight. Some facts:

Michigan's whopping 164,000-lb. trucks are actually kinder to pavements than the lighter trucks in use in other states.

The standard "eighteen-wheeler" in use in all states has four axles of 17,000 lbs. each, assuming the steering axle is no more than 12,000 lbs., for a maximum of 80,000 lbs.

Those huge Michigan trucks with two trailers and 11 axles carry no more than 16,000 lbs. on 2 axles, and most axles are at only 13,000 lbs. Most kinds of pavement wear worsen exponentially with axle loading, so it would be better if all trucks had many 13,000-lb. axles than four 17,000-lb. ones. This is called among pavement engineers "the Turner hypothesis," after Frank Turner, architect of the Interstate System. At the end of his career, Turner came to think that he'd got the specification of the Interstate-standard 5-axle semi wrong, and concluded that multiple low-loading axles would have been better.

When you see pavement cracking and rutting, it's caused by the many 5-axle 80,000-lb. semis, not the relatively-few Michigan 11-axle rigs.

Of course, all trucks and cars will need to pay more if the roads are to be maintained. But the 5-axle trucks should pay the most.

**Pat001** · February-15-19, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by 48307

We need to efficiently use the money that we have, but it's simply not enough right now.

It's never enough - they always want more.

Originally Posted by 48307

Traditionally I have not been a fan of toll roads, but it might help to start reduce the suburban sprawl and encourage folks to live close to their jobs, which would be a good thing.

How about I live where I want?

**Scottathew** · February-15-19, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Pat001

How about I live where I want?

That's fine. How about you pay additional money to support the infrastructure needed to transport you from home to your job?

Your choice is more expensive to society, therefore YOU can pay for that cost. I'm in the bucket of people that live far from their jobs, so paying more to take the freeway could potentially affect me [[but right now I take a SMART bus).

**goggomobil** · February-15-19, 11:16 AM

The ruts that I mentioned began in the right lane at Kent Lk Rd and disappeared after Milford Rd. That's where almost all of the sand and gravel traffic on eastbound I-96 begins. Any veteran motorist of I-96 is familiar with what type of truck they would encounter in that lane with its 4-ways on, going 45 mph up that grade. The center lane on that hill was [[is) almost always 5-axle semis that were passing gravel trains and the center lane looked nothing like the right lane.

Axle weight is absolutely a factor in damaging roads, but 80 tons on a bridge is always 80 tons, even with a dozen axles.

**Former_Detroiter** · February-15-19, 11:17 AM

I figured out how to fix the roads 6 years ago. I moved away from them..

**ABetterDetroit** · February-15-19, 11:26 AM

Toll Roads?

Why create and fund a whole new bureaucracy just to raise some money from ourselves? We are not a thru state. Let’s get a 100% of this hike to go to roads for a change. Be efficient in whatever tax vehicle is chosen.

**sirrealone** · February-15-19, 12:21 PM

We don't need toll roads. We're not a pass through state like others that use this model.

The bottom line is that, as I stated above, it's a funding issue.

In the mid-to-late 1990's, the gas tax was raised. This provided an adequate funding boost, and the roads began to improve. The percentage of roads in 'good' condition steadily improved for a number of years. As hard as it is to believe, there was a very brief stretch where Michigan had pretty good roads. But it was very short lived.

Unfortunately, the funding increase was not adequate for very long. Had they added three words to the bill 'tied to CPI', then the gas tax would have increased along with inflation. Let's be realistic. If the tax had gone up a penny or two per year, would anyone really have noticed? Probably not, when the price fluctuates 10-30 cents at a time. But, they didn't. So the revenue levels stayed flat, while labor and materials went up in price, meaning that each year we were able to work on fewer and fewer roads.

On top of that two other factors crippled the revenue. First, fuel economy improved, so people used fewer gallons of gas to get where they needed to go, resulting in a decline in revenues from the gas tax. Second, the Michigan economy hit a recession well before the rest of the country, which limited how much people drove.

These factors combined to make the revenues woefully inadequate not even ten years after the tax was increased.

For those who love to point out that the tax and registration fees were raised just a couple of years ago, the problem is that it wasn't enough. It raises about $1.5 billion annually, which is the amount that MDOT said they needed to get the roads into shape. The problem is that the $1.5 billion gets split up. County and local roads get a big chunk. Maintenence [[salting, etc.) eats up. In the end, the increase from a couple of years ago is providing less than half of what is really needed.

Revenue. It's all about revenue.

**Pat001** · February-15-19, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by 48307

That's fine. How about you pay additional money to support the infrastructure needed to transport you from home to your job?

Your choice is more expensive to society, therefore YOU can pay for that cost. I'm in the bucket of people that live far from their jobs, so paying more to take the freeway could potentially affect me [[but right now I take a SMART bus).

According to the SMART Bus operating budget report, fares and route revenue account for only 10 percent of operating revenue. The rest comes from federal, state and municipal transit authority grants. I’m subsidizing your SMART bus, and I never ride it.