Toledo commences study to resume Toledo-Detroit passenger rail

[Bham1982]

California is throwing more money at mass transit than anywhere else in the country. In 20-50 years, Los Angeles will likely be the most populous region in the country because of it.

None of this is true. CA spends much less than the NE Corridor on transit. And relative transit expenditures have basically nothing to do with population growth.

LA is barely growing, BTW, and has fast-declining transit ridership.

That said, CA should be lauded for being very aggressive re. transit expansion. So far, it has yet to bear fruit, but I think it's the right move given their congestion issues.

[iheartthed]

None of this is true. CA spends much less than the NE Corridor on transit. And relative transit expenditures have basically nothing to do with population growth.

LA is barely growing, BTW, and has fast-declining transit ridership.

Did you even bother to read the article?

The Los Angeles area, the ultimate car-centric region with its sprawling freeways, approved a sweeping $120 billion plan to build new train routes and upgrade its buses. Seattle has won accolades for its transit system, where 93 percent of riders report being happy with service — a feat that seems unimaginable in New York, where subway riders regularly simmer with rage on stalled trains.

No one is spending that type of money anywhere except L.A. I'm not talking about operational costs.

[mtburb]

This would nearly be of no use to me unless they chose to go with the more direct route through Monroe, Trenton and Wyandotte.

But the Metro Airport route [[and only up to there) would be fine as it will allow for plenty of transit connections-Fast Michigan for those continuing to Detroit, Michigan Flyer for folks from Ann Arbor and Lansing, SMART 125 for Downriver residents and SMART 280 for heading to the western suburbs.

[masterblaster]

LA is barely growing, BTW, and has fast-declining transit ridership.

You are being disingenuous.

We are talking about RAIL, not transit in general.

BUS ridership has decreased in LA, but RAIL transit ridership has stayed steady and increased slightly in ridership. And you know this....that is why you put the word transit, instead of rail or rapid transit.

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...124-story.html

Also, since 1990, LA has built more rapid transit lines and mileage [[6 lines, 102 miles) than any city in the country by far, with the exception of maybe Dallas-Fort Worth. [[and that does not even include the 7 COMMUTER rail lines LA has built since 1990)

[Burnsie]

For the sake of ending some of the aimless arguing, this route qualifies as an intercity rail link, not commuter. Commuter rail implies stops every few miles.

[Neilr]

On two occasions I took Amtrak to NYC back in the early 90s. The first time I boarded the train in Detroit ~11 pm for a short ride to Toledo where I transferred to the overnight to NYC at ~midnight. I had a sleeper compartment. It was, to me, right out of Star Trek. The seat transformed into a bed. The sink popped down from the wall and there was a toilet hidden away in my compartment. I slept through the night and awoke in the morning as the train went down the very scenic Hudson River Valley. Breakfast was at a table with a linen tablecloth in the dining car. About 2 pm the train pulled into Penn Station. It was all a truly memorable experience.

The second time instead of a train to Toledo, there was a Trailways shuttle bus. Not nearly as glamorous.

[Bham1982]

You are being disingenuous.

We are talking about RAIL, not transit in general.

No, RAIL is fast-declining in LA, despite massive expansion and an ideal demographic of millions of poor. Greater than 5% annualized decline.

https://www.apta.com/resources/stati...rship-APTA.pdf

Also, since 1990, LA has built more rapid transit lines and mileage [[6 lines, 102 miles) than any city in the country by far, with the exception of maybe Dallas-Fort Worth. [[and that does not even include the 7 COMMUTER rail lines LA has built since 1990)

This is obviously untrue. LA has built 100 miles of trolley lines, which have lower ridership than the buses they replaced. You cannot compare surface light rail to underground heavy rail. LA hasn't built any heavy rail in decades [[though it will).

Dallas is an even bigger joke. I think they have lower transit share than even Detroit by metro area, despite like 100 miles of new rail. Their population doubled, they added a giant rail system, they got a million working class immigrants, their economy boomed and their ridership actually dropped, which is kinda amazing.

The biggest U.S. urban transit investments in recent years are in NYC- Second Avenue Subway, East Side Access, and ARC [[though last one is delayed thanks to idiot Chris Christie).

NYC is built for transit, unlike LA, so the transit expansions actually add riders. The first phase of the Second Avenue subway, which is just a few miles long, has higher ridership than the entire LA rail system [[and SAS hasn't even reached Midtown yet).

[casscorridor]

Well clearly Fort Worth, Texas found it worth investing nearly one billion dollars on a new commuter line from DFW airport to Fort Worth. The line officially opened yesterday.

Metro Detroit will continue to slide backwards indefinitely, and while transit isn't everything, Metro Detroit's refusal to invest in it certainly doesn't help things.

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger...-rolls-in-dfw/
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/tran...ebuts-one-week

[birwood]

My late father worked for the City of Detroit [[DSR) now D-Dot, and back in the mid 70's Mayor Young, wanted a subway system along Woodward and possibly branch out from that utilizing existing abandon & active rail routes and surface bus lines. He had the D-Dot Plans and Scheduling Dept, [[my fathers office) survey and calculate milages, travel times over a 6 month period that would merge D-Dot and SMART [[then SEMTA) with the idea people from Port Huron had to get to Ann Arbor for U of M games, people from Monroe County had to get to Pontiac to the Silverdome, Etc, Etc, Etc, in a efficient manner, along with an estimated project cost. These plans got squashed and disappeared, by whom is anyone guess. Fast forword to 2019, the idea for commuter is GREAT! but remember, the abandon rail routes will have to be rebuilt and possibly new routes built, which means acquiring a right of way. Also, remember AMTRAK does not own the track it travels on, they lease it from the railroads and have to work the passenger schedules around freight operations. I took the AMTRAK to Wash DC this summer. The trip was comfortable and pleasant but several times we were diverted on to a siding, for as long as 30 minutes to allow for freight passage. Railroad companies no longer have their own passenger service as they did long ago with New York Central, Michigan Central, Pennsylvannia Railroads. Is an efficient reliable light rail/commuter service for SE lower Michigan viable?....YES!..I would use it in a heart beat for..The Woodward Dream Cruise, U of M Games, Detroit Sporting Events, Airshows at Selfridge. It should be seriously considered

[Onthe405]

For clarification, most of the light rail in LA' s Metro Rail system is not a "trolley", which is customarily interchangeable with a streetcar. Toronto & SF have trolleys, as is the QLine. There's a substantial difference when it comes to right-of-way, which affects commute time.

Also, LA Metro's transit funding is not limited to "pouring money into mass transit that nobody rides", but also includes individual transportation [[i.e. updating & expanding the configuration of freeways and leveraging technology on surface streets--including preparation for automated autos).

The majority of the rail portion of Metro was [[and is being), developed by a combination of:

1. Existing rail right-of-way from the dismantled Pacific Red Car network, some of which required property re-acquisition

2. Acquisition of existing industrial rail lines

3. Construction of transit rail in the middle of freeways, where easement exists [[the Green Line & the eastern portion of the Gold Line)

4. Underground subway

Particularly with #1 & #2, designated rail crossings offer options like smart traffic signals & gates that require the street autos to yield to the priority of light rail in addition to existing bridges [[the single biggest time saver). This is not an easy option for a trolley or bus. Without the existing infrastructure, light rail would not have been a practical option.

When no other option is available, there are portions that run on the street like a trolley [[the downtowns of LA, LB, Santa Monica, and Pasadena). Within the next few years most of DTLA will come off the list, as construction will be complete on moving more of this underground.

The 26 mile commute from Long Beach to DTLA is 35-40 minutes. With stops, there's no way that would be possible with 100% trolley or bus configuration. The freeways are still faster off-peak, but when congested, that 40 minute commute is a slice of heaven.

[masterblaster]

No, RAIL is fast-declining in LA, despite massive expansion and an ideal demographic of millions of poor. Greater than 5% annualized decline.

https://www.apta.com/resources/stati...rship-APTA.pdf

I stand corrected, LA's light rail and heavy rail dropped 4-5% in 2017, while the commuter rail basically stayed the same. Thanks for the data.

[masterblaster]

My late father worked for the City of Detroit [[DSR) now D-Dot, and back in the mid 70's Mayor Young, wanted a subway system along Woodward and possibly branch out from that utilizing existing abandon & active rail routes and surface bus lines. He had the D-Dot Plans and Scheduling Dept, [[my fathers office) survey and calculate milages, travel times over a 6 month period that would merge D-Dot and SMART [[then SEMTA) with the idea people from Port Huron had to get to Ann Arbor for U of M games, people from Monroe County had to get to Pontiac to the Silverdome, Etc, Etc, Etc, in a efficient manner, along with an estimated project cost. These plans got squashed and disappeared, by whom is anyone guess. Fast forword to 2019, the idea for commuter is GREAT! but remember, the abandon rail routes will have to be rebuilt and possibly new routes built, which means acquiring a right of way. Also, remember AMTRAK does not own the track it travels on, they lease it from the railroads and have to work the passenger schedules around freight operations. I took the AMTRAK to Wash DC this summer. The trip was comfortable and pleasant but several times we were diverted on to a siding, for as long as 30 minutes to allow for freight passage. Railroad companies no longer have their own passenger service as they did long ago with New York Central, Michigan Central, Pennsylvannia Railroads. Is an efficient reliable light rail/commuter service for SE lower Michigan viable?....YES!..I would use it in a heart beat for..The Woodward Dream Cruise, U of M Games, Detroit Sporting Events, Airshows at Selfridge. It should be seriously considered

Thanks for that neat history. I wish we could have had that system built, it really would have added to the quality of life of the region, IMHO.

From what I read, Young wanted a subway under Woodward, but the suburbs thought a subway was too expensive and wanted light rail instead. Nobody budged for years and then new President Reagan withdrew the funding in 1981.

[stasu1213]

There was a light commuter train that was to run from Detroit to Ann Arbor on the same track that Amtrak uses and the commuter train would run when Amtrak was not scheduled to be on the track. I was told that the commuter cars are still sitting in a warehouse somewhere collecting mothballs because Granholm and Snyder didnt want to put them unto the tracks. Michigan will never be an attractive state to move to or live in if the elected officials are still in the back pockets of the Oil and Auto Companies. I will include the insurance companies as well. These entities will lobby to keep Michiganders depending on the automobile even when General Motors had told Michigan to f#@k off we are closing plants and laying off workers. It is time for alternative transportation in this state and hopefully Governor Whitmer will favor more light rail for southeast Michigan and Detroit's Tri County areas

[Atticus]

Transit is a great thing... if implemented properly.

The problem is there are way too many planning folks and urbanists who want transit simply to say “we have transit”. The people mover is transit, but it is not successful transit because it doesn’t solve a significant problem.

The other issue with transit is that it either needs to be 1) significantly faster/easier than driving, or 2) much more cost effective than driving. If it is not, wealthier people won’t use the transit, and the transit is left for the poorer income groups. And politically incorrect as it may be, a transit system that serves mainly lower income groups becomes a turnoff to wealthier riders because of economic segregation, which then creates a death spiral where only the lower income groups ride it, and then the transit becomes even more neglected and unreliable because deep down the politicians only really care about things that impact the wealthier voters.

And yes, there are wealthier folks who simply prefer not to own a car. But planners automatically assume that not owning a car translates into a transit rider... which is not necessarily true either. Truth be told, in Detroit many of the wealthier folks who prefer not to have a car simply walk or bike, and occasionally take Uber/Lyft as needed. Which goes back to the point of, effective transit needs to solve a real day to day problem... and the problem can’t simply be “we don’t have enough transit”.

[archfan]

1. Existing rail right-of-way from the dismantled Pacific Red Car network, some of which required property re-acquisition

Was that the one killed by General Motors and the cartoons?

[birwood]

Thanks for that neat history. I wish we could have had that system built, it really would have added to the quality of life of the region, IMHO.

From what I read, Young wanted a subway under Woodward, but the suburbs thought a subway was too expensive and wanted light rail instead. Nobody budged for years and then new President Reagan withdrew the funding in 1981.

From what I recall,listening to my father discussing the topic.....Mayor Young wanted to merge SEMTA with D-Dot and D-Dot was have control for the whole thing, it became a $$$$ issue....the burbs said "NO" should be in control because they served a larger area than D-Dot plus they already have to Royal Oak to New Center communter train in operation. Secondly, the subway was suppose to run from downtown to 8 Mile then on surface out to Pontiac on the old Inter-Urban route in the median.

[Richard]

There was a light commuter train that was to run from Detroit to Ann Arbor on the same track that Amtrak uses and the commuter train would run when Amtrak was not scheduled to be on the track. I was told that the commuter cars are still sitting in a warehouse somewhere collecting mothballs because Granholm and Snyder didnt want to put them unto the tracks. Michigan will never be an attractive state to move to or live in if the elected officials are still in the back pockets of the Oil and Auto Companies. I will include the insurance companies as well. These entities will lobby to keep Michiganders depending on the automobile even when General Motors had told Michigan to f#@k off we are closing plants and laying off workers. It is time for alternative transportation in this state and hopefully Governor Whitmer will favor more light rail for southeast Michigan and Detroit's Tri County areas

The cars are leased and was originally scheduled to start in 2022 on a dedicated line for speed.

Then it kinda got folded into the whole RTA picture and got derailed by Macomb county.

March 2018 was the last meeting or update.

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor...it_plan_m.html

[casscorridor]

The cars are leased and was originally scheduled to start in 2022 on a dedicated line for speed.

Then it kinda got folded into the whole RTA picture and got derailed by Macomb county.

March 2018 was the last meeting or update.

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor...it_plan_m.html

8 trip per day... basically useless

come back with a legitimate plan that will *transform* transportation between Ann Arbor and Detroit and, of course, Metro Airport

[masterblaster]

Transit is a great thing... if implemented properly.

The problem is there are way too many planning folks and urbanists who want transit simply to say “we have transit”. The people mover is transit, but it is not successful transit because it doesn’t solve a significant problem.

The other issue with transit is that it either needs to be 1) significantly faster/easier than driving, or 2) much more cost effective than driving. If it is not, wealthier people won’t use the transit, and the transit is left for the poorer income groups. And politically incorrect as it may be, a transit system that serves mainly lower income groups becomes a turnoff to wealthier riders because of economic segregation, which then creates a death spiral where only the lower income groups ride it, and then the transit becomes even more neglected and unreliable because deep down the politicians only really care about things that impact the wealthier voters.

And yes, there are wealthier folks who simply prefer not to own a car. But planners automatically assume that not owning a car translates into a transit rider... which is not necessarily true either. Truth be told, in Detroit many of the wealthier folks who prefer not to have a car simply walk or bike, and occasionally take Uber/Lyft as needed. Which goes back to the point of, effective transit needs to solve a real day to day problem... and the problem can’t simply be “we don’t have enough transit”.

Do you think that when they built rapid transit in Phoenix, Norfolk, Charlotte, Dallas/Fort Worth, etc that there was some pressing day to day problem that these systems addressed?

I do see a pressing problem - half of downtown land is parking lots. Half of the New Center area is parking lots. Half of Wayne State university's land is parking lots.

If we are truly going to create a thriving, walkable core, half of our core can't be dedicated to car storage.

Also, another pressing need is that visitors have no affordable and FAST way to get and from DTW. Visitors and residents either have to take an expensive UBER or Metrocars or have to pay expensive $13/day long-term parking fees [[residents) and rental cars [[visitors). The new SMART bus is nice, but it is still an 1 hour travel time and SMART just recently cut back hours for some reason [[I ride it often).

[masterblaster]

8 trip per day... basically useless

come back with a legitimate plan that will *transform* transportation between Ann Arbor and Detroit and, of course, Metro Airport

Why is this useless? It is a COMMUTER train. To bring WORKERS/STUDENTS from A2 to Detroit and to bring WORKERS/STUDENTS from Detroit area to A2. It's a good start. It's not a light rail line, with all day service and 10-minute frequency, it's for workers/students getting to/from their jobs/schools.

[Richard]

8 trip per day... basically useless

come back with a legitimate plan that will *transform* transportation between Ann Arbor and Detroit and, of course, Metro Airport

If I remember correctly it was going to run on a dedicated track in order to exceed the 100 mph restrictions and not be impeded on the freight line.

That is a big step,I find it kinda crazy though that one county seems to be in control of transit options for an entire region.

[softailrider]

I'd take it to Toledo for Tony Packo's.

I think you can buy Yungling down there. Duhnoo if it’s worth the trip though.......

[Danny]

That transit plan is dead anyway.