Church properties in Detroit

**expatriate** · January-02-19, 11:26 AM

I wonder if anyone has done a study on the number of Detroit properties exempt from taxation. As one who drives downtown on most of the east side arterials I can't help but notice that there are often multiple "churches" on a single block.
Add this to other 501[[c)3s, and vacant land in this city and I would guess that the property tax burden falls on just a very small percentage of tax payers.

**Noctrine** · January-03-19, 04:30 PM

You can run a search against this data at with Loveland - I don't know how to link to the query itself but the tool is here https://makeloveland.com/us/mi/wayne...rhoods&t=query

Looks like there are 3,571 parcels counted as religious, 507 parcels counted as benevolent / charity, and 1156 considered "exempt".

Overall a small amount compared to the 96,639 counted city land bank [[which is different than the 9810 city owned properties)

That's just from a simple query though, more complicated queries would need to be done to figure out what impact these properties would have on actual property tax revenue.

**Meddle** · January-04-19, 03:03 AM

One way to fix that.

**expatriate** · January-04-19, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the interesting link. You came up with many more than I did when searching the IRS data. I guess in the overall picture these exempt properties are not as burdensome I as had imagined. Likewise, I have always been curious how much in property taxes were forfeited in the demolition required for the urban freeways. Perhaps I will play with the Loveland maps to see if I can figure that out one day.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-04-19, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by expatriate

...Likewise, I have always been curious how much in property taxes were forfeited in the demolition required for the urban freeways....

Curious why you would say 'forfeited'? The number of owners and renters did not change. Their 'forfeited' property taxes likely ended up being collected elsewhere. Certainly some of their tax payments moved to the suburbs.

Elizabeth Warren would likely say that these roads were an 'investment' in jobs and growth for metro Detroit. Would be hard to argue that the Jeffries Freeway has not benefitted the upper west side and Livonia.

**Lowell** · January-04-19, 01:16 PM

I would suggest driving around on Sundays around 11 AM to noon. There is a surprising amount of activity at them.

**p69rrh51** · January-05-19, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Lowell

I would suggest driving around on Sundays around 11 AM to noon. There is a surprising amount of activity at them.

I spend many Sundays negotiating my way around the automobiles parked in the vicinity of numerous churches that look abandoned.

**mwilbert** · January-06-19, 01:32 AM

My complaint about some of the churches is a bit different. I see tons of people on Sunday, but they are dead zones the rest of the week.

For instance on Livernois north of St. Martin's you have gigantic church parking lots, along with the church itself, that basically end the walkable portion of Livernois--they discourage anyone from continuing on foot north to the small retail area near Chippewa. Nor as far as I can tell can anyone park in them during the week [[and I hear lots of complaints about parking availability on Livernois) so they don't even seem to be as useful as parking lots as they could be.

**expatriate** · January-06-19, 10:30 AM

Perhaps I should have said "forfeited by Detroit". Clearly the new suburbs benefited by the creation of sprawl, just as the old "city" was injured by it.

**masterblaster** · January-06-19, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

My complaint about some of the churches is a bit different. I see tons of people on Sunday, but they are dead zones the rest of the week.

For instance on Livernois north of St. Martin's you have gigantic church parking lots, along with the church itself, that basically end the walkable portion of Livernois--they discourage anyone from continuing on foot north to the small retail area near Chippewa. Nor as far as I can tell can anyone park in them during the week [[and I hear lots of complaints about parking availability on Livernois) so they don't even seem to be as useful as parking lots as they could be.

I agree with you about that church on Livernois, which basically ends the Avenue of Fashion on its north end. But what can you do, these churches need parking lots, and even if it can be used during the week for parking,
it still effectively breaks up the streetwall.

**masterblaster** · January-06-19, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Elizabeth Warren would likely say that these roads were an 'investment' in jobs and growth for metro Detroit. Would be hard to argue that the Jeffries Freeway has not benefitted the upper west side and Livonia.

Freeways accelerated the exodus out of cities by making it more convenient to live farther distances away from the city center. If people only could use Grand River and the Mile Roads to get out to the western suburbs, and I-96, I-94, M-14, and M-5 didn't exist, the suburbs would not have exploded as much. They still would have grew, but not as much.

**Meddle** · January-06-19, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

For instance on Livernois north of St. Martin's you have gigantic church parking lots, along with the church itself, that basically end the walkable portion of Livernois--they discourage anyone from continuing on foot north to the small retail area near Chippewa. Nor as far as I can tell can anyone park in them during the week [[and I hear lots of complaints about parking availability on Livernois) so they don't even seem to be as useful as parking lots as they could be.

I don't like churches and the brainwashing they do in general, I hate that they're sucking up city services tax free and I'll never defend one in any way, but .....

A quick virtual tour shows that north of St Martins is a UHaul storage facility with large lot, then the church lots, then a smattering of small businesses, a day care center and vacant lots. I'm not sure it's the church that ends the walking space.

**mwilbert** · January-06-19, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

I don't like churches and the brainwashing they do in general, I hate that they're sucking up city services tax free and I'll never defend one in any way, but .....

A quick virtual tour shows that north of St Martins is a UHaul storage facility with large lot, then the church lots, then a smattering of small businesses, a day care center and vacant lots. I'm not sure it's the church that ends the walking space.

I would not claim that the church and its parking lots are the only problem, and the U-Haul place is also a barrier. There's also an uninviting dialysis place north of the church. Nor is Livernois so lively at this point that people would just be swarming north to the party store if the walk were more pleasnt. My point is only that the retail area north of Chippewa is cut off, and as [[if) Livernois continues to improve, it's going to be hard to get that improvement to continue up toward Eight Mile, specifically because of the land tied up by the church and its parking.

As Detroit's problems go, this is not even on the list, but since people were talking about churches I thought I'd throw it in.

**archfan** · January-07-19, 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

I would not claim that the church and its parking lots are the only problem, and the U-Haul place is also a barrier. There's also an uninviting dialysis place north of the church. Nor is Livernois so lively at this point that people would just be swarming north to the party store if the walk were more pleasnt. My point is only that the retail area north of Chippewa is cut off, and as [[if) Livernois continues to improve, it's going to be hard to get that improvement to continue up toward Eight Mile, specifically because of the land tied up by the church and its parking.

As Detroit's problems go, this is not even on the list, but since people were talking about churches I thought I'd throw it in.

If we're at the point where everything else on the Avenue is full, the U-Haul and dialysis will sell, and we'll see new street wall. We have a ways before that happens.

**poobert** · January-07-19, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Elizabeth Warren would likely say that these roads were an 'investment' in jobs and growth for metro Detroit. Would be hard to argue that the Jeffries Freeway has not benefitted the upper west side and Livonia.

Elizabeth Warren was ten years old and living in Oklahoma when I-96 was built.

**Meddle** · January-07-19, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Elizabeth Warren would likely say that these roads were an 'investment' in jobs and growth for metro Detroit. Would be hard to argue that the Jeffries Freeway has not benefitted the upper west side and Livonia.

Originally Posted by poobert

Elizabeth Warren was ten years old and living in Oklahoma when I-96 was built.

"The first piece of the Jeffries Freeway connected the Fisher Freeway [[I-75) with the Ford Freeway [[I-94) in 1970. It was extended northwest to Livernois Avenue [[exit 188A) in July 1971, and then to Grand River Avenue at Schaefer Highway [[exit 185) in 1973. In 1976, the freeway was extended west to the Southfield Freeway [[exit 183), and the entire I-275 concurrent section was opened. The final piece was completed on November 21, 1977, connecting the Detroit section to I-275. The I-96 designation was assigned along the I-275 freeway south to the Jeffries Freeway, and eastward along the new freeway to the M-39 interchange; the remaining stub of I-96 around Farmington was redesignated as an extension of M-102 [[now M-5)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_96

Born:Elizabeth Ann Herring, Jun 22, 1949

That would put her in her early to mid 20s when the Jeffries was built.